Tech: How do you narrow a web search?

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM

Thanks to gargoyle & all others for some new search engine ideas. I use Altavista & Google regularly at work & home, usually w/ a good degree of success, but it's always nice to get fresh input.

bbc

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:51 AM

Jeri:

LOVE ya for finding that fine poem!! THANKS!!


A

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:48 AM

There's something obvious missing here, unless I've missed it in the posts as well. I know Joe said it early on, but I get the impression Genie didn't understand. I hope this helps.

If you don't type the phrase in quotes, the search engine will look for the individual words and not the phrase.

You can type in: "let us smile"
NOT: let us smile
It's best not to use upper case letters

You can type: "let us smile" "your umbrella"
and the search will find documents containing one of the prases or the other or both.

If you type "let us smile" AND "your umbrella"
it will find documents containing both phrases.

Often when searches are unsuccessful, I go back and check the quotes and find something just a bit wrong. It may be "let us all smile" or "your big umbrella." I searched for let and us and smile and your and umbrella and found Let a Smile be Your Umbrella.

I found this while trying to find your poem:

I. Prologue. A Sense of Humor
By Vachel Lindsay [Nicholas Vachel Lindsay, Illinois Artist. 1879-1931.]

No man should stand before the moon
To make sweet song thereon,
With dandified importance,
His sense of humor gone.

Nay, let us don the motley cap,
The jester's chastened mien,
If we would woo that looking-glass
And see what should be seen.

O mirror on fair Heaven's wall,
We find there what we bring.
So, let us smile in honest part
And deck our souls and sing.

Yea, by the chastened jest alone
Will ghosts and terrors pass,
And fays, or suchlike friendly things,
Throw kisses through the glass.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:59 AM

SEARCH ENGINE - From my favorite's files.

Start with this site - learn how the engines work
http://www.searchenginewatch.com


Then take a look at these:



http://www.searchenginecolossus.com/

http://searchenginez.com/index.html

http://www.allonesearch.com/all1desk.html

http://www.bigbook.com/

http://www.search.com/

http://www.dpu.se/Infoe.html


Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:44 AM

Your problem lies with using the right search engine for the right job. There are over 400 GOOD search engines. Copernic lost their edge about two years ago.

A lot is the "portal" that you choose to go through. The University of Texas Dallas Library (utd.edu) cannot be beat...but you need "back door" access....(which is not hard)


Try   http://www.allonesearch.com/all1desk.html

The "search engine report newsletter" is good reading. Google only touch the commerical surface of the web - for accademics each university specializes in their "contribution" to the web's intellectual community and their roots are free access.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:41 AM

Joan,

If you click on the 'Cached' links next to each search result, you will get the page as it appeared when Google crawled it.

I believe that Google re-indexes all of it's pages once a month, but popular, ever changing sites such as news organisations much more frequently.

Mudcat, for example was last crawled on 26th October

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 03:17 AM

I would disagree with "Guest The Google Team"'s assertion that every page listed has the phrase/words you're searching for on it somewhere. I often find when searching that some pages listed do not contain my search phrase ANYWHERE - this seems to be because the page has changed (and not necessarily recently, either) since it was listed by Google. And the now-irrelevant page always seems to be the one with the most promising lead, according to the quoted section on the search results page! Very frustrating. I don't know how often Google clean up their links, or even if they ever do, because almost every search I do contains a number of dead links to pages which no longer even exist.

Joan

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 06:35 PM

Dear Amos,

'Obscene'? Please explain

I merely suggested how to best use google. That was, after all, what the questioner asked.

I gave good advice. Agreed, I wasn't 'nicey nicey' but decent advice beats that every time.

If people here are that thin skinned, they might expect to be punctured.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 11:30 AM

*nod*....they do differ, both in how the process searches, and in the way you address them....the links I noted above lead directly to some detailed explanations...

(I use basically two most of the time...Google and AlltheWeb(FastSearch) which has almost as many web pages indexed, but has what I think is a better image search facility.)

If you want to REALLY play, download Copernic a program which sets on your computer and can be told which search engines to look at and how to organize the results..etc. Amazing tool!

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 10:25 AM

One thing that's not much publicized is the fact that each search engine is a little different from every other. The rules are never quite the same. So pick out your favourite one and experiment with it. Some one above mentioned quotation marks - an excellent idea, highly recommended.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:08 PM

Your obscene attitude is uncalled for, pal...second the motion made above. Where'd you get the idea that simple courtesy was an option you didn't want?

A

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 07:06 PM

"You were either too dull or too lazy to notice."

I will never for the life of me understand why some 'guests' feel a need to be abrasive and obnoxious when offering 'help'... is it a need to feel superior? Genie is trying to learn something...she doesn't need to be made to feel bad as she learns...

be nice, or GO AWAY!

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:44 PM

I don't seem to be able to specify a CONJUNCTIVE search, such as poetry that also contains the specific phrase "Let us Smile" AND the word "umbrella"

Of course you can. The Google search would be "let us smile" umbrella

You could of course add 'poem' 'poetry' etc. to suit

Not too hard...

As mentioned earlier, an hour reading the help files would perhaps benefit you

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Cubs
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:33 PM

In Google at the bottom of the page of results is a link to Search Within Results. After you use that a couple of times and then look at the search line you will see how the extended search works. When you understand that you can merely alter the search line without going to the bottom of the page.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:33 PM

Google search for "Let us Smile"

No umbrellas...

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST,The Google Team
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM

"When I just typed in ""Let Us Smile" I got sent to a number of sites that had to do with smiles but didn't have the exact phrase"

No you didn't. EVERY page on that search had that phrase somewhere within the text. You were either too dull or too lazy to notice.

Read the help pages, that's what they are there for. Engage your brain, try to work it out for yourself for a change.

Unless you're completely stupid, you'll do well

The Google Team

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:27 PM

Bill, thanks for the tip on "algorithm." Most of what you said I've already discovered, but I don't seem to be able to specify a CONJUNCTIVE search, such as poetry that also contains the specific phrase "Let us Smile" AND the word "umbrella." I end up getting a DISJUNCTIVE list of things that are either poetry OR contain the phrase "Let Us Smile" or contain the word "umbrella."

When I type in "Let Us Smile," I keep getting sent to the song "Let A Smile Be Your Umbrella," which is NOT what I'm looking for. As I said, Google says the quotation marks will exclude all but that particular phrase, but they lie!

The time I have the most problem with these searches is when I want something very specific, such as Brewster Highley's 1872 poem that contains the phrase "Give me a home where the buffalo roam." Some phrases, such as "Let Us Smile" will yield about 1000 possibilities if you don't narrow it down.

Given that I've already found all the sites that contain a particular phrase, how do I say, "OK, now look for the word "X" within this group of sites," etc.?

Jeanene

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Cubs
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:22 PM

In Google, without using the Advanced Search screen, the words that are not in quotes can be anywhere in the found document but will be in the document. When you put words in quotes, that exact phrase will be in the document. When you put a hyphen (minus sign) in front of a word, that word will not appear in the found documents.

If you are looking for songs by Bob Gibson (the singer/songwriter not the baseball player) you would search for

"Bob Gibson" lyrics
or
"Bob Gibson" -baseball

"Bob Gibson"
gets 20,800 hits
"Bob Gibson" lyrics
gets 624 hits
"Bob Gibson" -baseball
gets 9,950 hits

Merely excluding baseball includes the Bar BQ restaurant and a few personal home pages.

If you want songs by Bob Gibson and Phil Ochs,
"Bob Gibson" "Phil Ochs"
gets 318 hits
"Bob Gibson" "Phil Ochs" lyrics
gets 95 hits.

Does that make sense?

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:21 PM

Read the Google help pages, and think a bit.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:05 PM

Genie...a lot of searching is something between logic & intuition. I am considered very good at finding what I am looking for. I try very hard to use a phrase and/or a word or two that eliminate most of the unwanted stuff..

In Google, the quotes are 'supposed' to give you that exact phrase, as in "retrograde ambience" if you add another word 'horse' it will look for pages where the phrase and the other word are both found. If you add 'not cow' you eliminate other pages. If you type retrograde and ambience without the quotes, you may get lots of pages of solving crossword puzzles, as this will get lists of words.

The real secret is to just intuit what *phrase* a person WOULD use in a discussion...not just words.

for instance...type the phrase "search engines" and the word 'tricks' into Google, and you will find a list of pages that discuss how to use them...(you will get pages which are dedicated to advice on submitting sites TO a search engine, too...but adding the word 'algorithm' to the search, as a separate word beside 'tricks' will get a better list, discussing the ways various search engines rank their searches....How do I know that? I just do... *shrug* and it's knowing that the word 'algorithm' is in common usage there that speeds up the search.

The 2nd listing in my search gives me this page which in turn has other links.....

It is just a process of studying stereotypical thinking, mostly....and then applying creative guesswork to it....and looking for a 'nexus' where someone has already collected lists of lists FOR you!.....

For example...if you find a great page of links about, say, 'turnips'-- called http://worldofturnips.com you can enter link:http://worldofturnips.com into Google or Altavista and it will show you what OTHER pages have links to http://worldofturnips.com ...and maybe even a better page! In this way, you track down the experts fast!

It works very well in music pages...."link:http://mudcat.org" will show you MANY pages of folk music...many with lots more links!

and then you save the best ones as bookmarks and...just play...

I hope some of this is useful....

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:01 PM

OK, so I looked for the word poetry in Google. Once the possibilities came up, I went to the bottom of the page. It didn't say "Advanced Search," but there was a search box there (in addition to the one at the top of the page), so I entered (in quotes) "Let Us Smile" and the search seemed to 'narrow' to books and poetry that had that phrase (and, unfortunately, some similar phrases like "smiles are good for us"). Then I tried to search within that universe for the word "umbrella," and--you guessed it -- back to the patio umbrella supplier!

Just how DO you search only WITHIN a category? I'm afraid Google's instructions don't make that clear.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:47 PM

Well, Google's instructions say to put the phrase in quotation marks if you want to look only for those words in that order. So I typed in "Let Us Smile...Umbrella" and I got sent to a patio umbrella supplier. Same thing happened when I typed poetry:smile+umbrella. When I just typed in ""Let Us Smile" I got sent to a number of sites that had to do with smiles but didn't have the exact phrase.

Sorcha, I do use synonyms when it seems appropriate, but usually my problem is to narrow the field, not broaden it.

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:34 PM

Jeeves is pretty worthless as far as I am concerned. kat and Mary pretty much said how I do it. Put in the first phrase, then go to Search Within Results at the bottom of your first search page and start refining. Also, try to think of synomyms--book, tale, story,etc. Often, chords works when tab doesn't, and vice versa.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:27 PM

Thanks, Kat. That sounds counterintuitive to me -- to type in the two key words without the quotations or something else. I'd've thunk that'd get me everything about harelips or women named Prudence.

(BTW, trying to think of the name of that novel, which was done as a two-part movie on PBS a few years ago, has been driving me nuts. I thought it was by Thomas Hardy or George Elliot, but found it wasn't, and I could not for the life of me recallt he title, though I remembered the story pretty well.)

Joe, I'm not sure how your method works. When I type in exact whole phrases, I get sent to lots of places that aren't anywhere near exact. E.g., I was looking for the phrase "your umbrella" on Jeeves and on google, and I got to sent to everything that had anything to do with umbrellas. I'll try to look up those instructions, but I'm still kinda baffled.

As for leaving out the "and" and "the," I can see that when looking for general things, but if you are seeking a specific phrase, say, in a poem, leaving out those little words can let in a lot of similar, but wrong, possibilities. "The horse and the fly" is not the same thing as "horse fly," and neither one has anything to do with "flying horses."


Often, when looking for a specific song or poem, I'd rather have the seach turn up nothing than have it make me wade through tons of stuff that happens to contain PART of the phrase or title I'm looking for. I do make it specific when I can and seldom type in more than 3-to-5 words at a time, but the quotes don't have the effect of keeping the words within th quotes together.

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:27 PM

Hi Genie,

I looked at your "planes and boats and trains" ... if you put just that phrase in Google, you get too many unrelated hits. So I tried including the word "lyrics" and no luck. Then I tried the word "song" and BINGO, I found that Petula Clarke sang that song in the 60's. You can quickly find a key word on a page by using Edit/ Find on this page. Often when I'm searching for lyrics I try to include a phrase from the song inside italics and also the word "lyrics" or the word "song."

Another trick I like for images is to use the Google image search.

Also I try to vary the punctuation and use asterisks for wild cards. An example would be if I didn't remember the phrase exactly, whether is was plane or planes, so I might put plane*.

I didn't look for Prudence, but sometimes using other words likely to appear in the novel might help. Or you might search for a literature review. Many times after you see the kinds of hits certain words yield, you will get ideas for new "buzz" words.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:01 PM

Hi, Genie - I usually look for exact phrases or distinctive words that I know are likely to be only in the type of document I'm looking for - same thing I do when I'm searching Mudcat. My favorite search engines are Google and Hotbot. Most people just put words in the search box of these engines, but both have "advanced" search links that can help you narrow your search.
With Google, try searching for "two phrases", and be sure that "each is in quotes". I have to say I haven't bothered learning Boolean terms like NOT and NEAR and AND - but I look up instructions and use them when I need to (or use the "Advanced Search" option).
Hope that helps.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM

THere are help page3s on Google. You use + to require an inclusion and - to exclude, I believe.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM

Try not to be too wordy and be specific. For instance, I put in "prudence harelip" on google, without the quotation marks. First thing that came up was Precious Bane, a book at Amazon with a main character named Prudence with a harelip.

Also, leave out the and, the, or, etc. as they are so common, google ignores them.

If you are looking for something about a specific region, start with the state or country first, then break it down, i.e. "Colorado Gold Hill restaurants."

If all else fails, ask...some of us LOVE doing this!:-)

Subject: Tech: How do you narrow a web search?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:49 PM

Aahhhrrrrrrgggghh!! I am tired of typing in a phrase like, say, "planes and boats and trains" into the web search box and having all sorts of stuff come up about "trains" or "boats" or "planes," even if I have put the phrase in brackets or in quotation marks.

Say I want to find an 18th or 19th C. novel that has a character named Prudence who is a harelip. How do I specify that in a google (or other search-engine) search. so that I won't have to wade through stuff that's not literature, not 18th or 19th C., and does not have a character with those characteristics.    Or say I want to find a song lyric that has a particular phrase? How do I tell the seach engine to look only for the entire phrase and only within song lyrics?

Some of you folks seem to be pretty handy at searching the web. How do you do it?

Genie