BS: Woodburning stoves search

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Blues=Life
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 12:46 AM

SRS, having worked for Heatilator, the manufacturer of fireplaces, I think what you have is not one of their products. Is this a rack for the fire made out of tubes, with air intake and fan at the bottom front, and which bend in a "C" shape so that the outtake is at the top, pointing toward the room? If so, I haven't seen those in quite a few years at the Hearth Products Association trade show. They worked well, except for that annoying little habit of burning out quickly.

If, however, you have a heat-circulating fireplace with a metal chimney, there is going to be a Rating Plate on it somewhere. This will give you the manufacturer, the model number, and the serial number. From there, the web is your best bet to find a customer service number, and it's downhill from there. If, however, you can't find it, call a local fireplace shop and pay for a service call. They can help you, or at least narrow down where to look. That's what we do.

Also, any fireplace insert sold in the US today meets the EPA limits on emmissions, and is exempt from local "No Burn" days, in MOST instances. A good EPA rated stove or insert burns clean, with no smoke after the intial lightup. Again, your local hearth shop can help.

On a different note:

Mountain Thyme, you're the reason that Hearth companies have to carry really good liability insurance. So far on this thread, you've recommended "two holes drilled through into the firebox", "a coil fashioned by you within the firebox", and blown off the risks of modifing a woodburning heater so that it has the potential to become a bomb in someone's home, or that there is no risk of the copper melting as long as you make sure you keep water in the system. Of course, if the tube DOES melt, has it occured to you that you now have several unplanned holes in the top of the firebox to emit heat, sparks, and smoke into the house? Also, the introduction of extra air can make a modern non-catalytic stove run extremely hot, also a fire hazard.

You also said:
""Heatalator" hasn't changed much in 40 years. The units still sell very well. Any good contractor supply has anything (new or replacment parts)you could need. The fireback is very thin for serious woodburning so a cast iron fireback is a good idea. The "smokeshelf" (flue control) is not at all a good design. Much smoke can be aleviated by modifying the draft for your purpose. The motor and squirrl cage are a standard product available from any good mill supply." Folks, if you follow any of this advice, you're stupid. Don't mean to be blunt, but stupid is the word. Let's review. By "Heatalator" hasn't changed much, you could be referring to one of two things. One is the actual brand name of Heatilator, which has changed their product massively over the last 40 years. Each one has gone through extensive UL testing, to ensure safety. If you meant the fireplace form, a metal shell which provides the shape of a firebox for a mason to build a masonry fireplace and chimney system around, those haven't changed much since 1927. But even they are UL tested. The fireback is plenty thick for "designed use". What the hell are YOU burning? Railroad ties? The flue control works fine, and again is tested. What modifications are you makeing? It's a damper, it opens and closes. And finally, motors and squirrel cages are usually heat rated for fireplace use, so they are not usually off the shelf parts.

Folks, please excuse my rant, but I've been in this industry a long time, and modifications to wood, gas, or pellet fireplaces, stoves, and inserts scare the hell out of me. When you modify a system, you do three things.
1. You void the manufacturer's warranty. You are now responsible for everything that happens to that system.
2. You void your home owner's insurance. If you burn your house down, and they discover that the fire was caused by a tampered with system, YOU ARE NO LONGER INSURED.
3. You risk burning down your home, and killing yourself and your family. I'm not kidding. There's a reason that my industry works so hard on safety. But if you bypass what we've done, it's your own fault.

So, please, contact a hearth shop, and deal with a professional. We care about your home and family, and we take great pride in what we do. Don't listen to an idiot who will write of the risks of modifications as "At this temperature point you would have a nasty bomb in you house!" Doesn't seem very worried, do he?

Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:55 PM

Maggie, BEFORE you decide to replace your heat-a-lator, you might research it a bit more. The heat-a-lator has proven to be one of the best adaptations for a fireplace sourced wood heater. The basic problem, as I recal, is that the metal used, early on, was simply to light a guage, meaning too thin, to withstand the stresses. I would suspect, that with some searching, you 'might' find someone down there that can remake it, perhaps adding new back and sides, fans, whatever, without needing a major rebuild. I'm not sure, but snoop around and see what you can find. Just trying to be helpful! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:56 AM

I usta have the Detailed Plans for a Wood Burning Stove -

but the cost nowadays for the lumber required to construct it

and the ONE-TIME use factor, almost makes it cost prohibitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 05:14 AM

Bonnie, you have just made me homesick for Essex again! Damn, I miss the Great Marsh.

Thanks for your input, people. I'm getting keen on something called a Hunter Herald 6, which is reassuringly expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 05:13 AM

I didn't trace this thread, so I didn't see your answer until now, Mountain Thyme, but thanks! I've realized this fall the the system is pretty well shot and the whole thing needs to be replaced, not just the fan. The lower ducts are all burnt through, for starters. Before I consider simply replacing the heatalator, I'll look at the configuration of the fireplace inserts. When I was trying to move to Albuquerque a couple of years ago I found that everyone had these pellet burners. Small, gave off a lot of heat. But around here, where air quality is a problem, and pellets might not be as readily available, a woodburning stove might do the trick (or might not if the winter air quality ratings are too bad). Last year I thought about picking up all of the downed limbs people cut up and left for the bulky waste folks--maybe that should happen for real this year?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 05:01 AM

Unabashed plug for one of our friends:

Don't forget to pick up a copy of "Mother Earth News" to look over the ads for "survivalist/minimalist" doodads. While it's US published, it's pretty "international" in scope, and lots of the best stuff is "import" to us - so might be local in your neighborhood.

The main point is that you can't tell if a bargain is a bargain unless you can compare it to good current stuff.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 03:56 AM

These are not too near your area but you might as well ask them for some brochures and get the widest choice possible. Try:

Brent-Wood Burners
3-5 Coxtie Green Road
Pilgrims Hatch
Brentwood, Essex
Tel: [phone]

Essex Stoves
Black Notley
Braintree, Essex
Tel: [phone]

Litton Brothers
Estate Yard
Ockendon Road
North Ockendon
Upminster, Essex
Tel: [phone]

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM

Joe ... I can't resist the obvious pun ... You HAVE moved back to the "country! (sorry ... sorta) Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Llanfair
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:14 PM

Sounds like you want something seriously chunky, Skip!!!
Our old oil fired rayburn heats the whole 3 bedroom house when set on the lowest setting. No hassle with oil....till the war starts, that is!!!
There are lots of dealers about, and some will help you find second hand ones. Esse, Rayburn, Aga, and Windrush are the ones I know of.
Hope you find one soon, it can get pretty chilly on your side of Offa's Dyke this time of year!!
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:56 PM

Don't know if these guys will be some help (crosses fingers & tries first ever blicky)?

Nope that ain't it I'll go away & try some more, meanwhile,

http://www.ouzledale.co.uk/

should get you to ESSE stoves site!

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:37 PM

Last year, we bought a high-tech fireplace insert to heat the house, and I was quite thrilled with it. This year, it was announced that it's my job to start the fire in the morning.
I think maybe I want to move back to civilization, where I had gas-fired central heat. It's beautiful here in the Sierra foothills, but I sure hate the cold.
The fireplace insert does work well, though - brand name is "Country."
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:45 AM

just make sure you dont get ripped toff, there is a lot of fiddling buggers about nowadays, is there any magazine about it 9Whitch Stove) or sinilar?

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:42 AM

Heloo Gary, I don'r know what your on about, and what you asking me foir anyway, i doint know nowt about it.john

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 10:34 AM

John, I'm in a bugger's muddle with this stove business. I need to buy one toot sweet, and prices vary widely, and specs are impenetrable. I just want a bloody good wood burning stove to heat a big farmhouse kitchen, and don't know what the hell to choose, or rather what not to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:36 PM

Mountain Tyme, thank you for the information you supplied to my question.

We do actually have a still here in Pitlochry but since it is producing Bell's Whisky 24/7 the chance of getting a copper coil off them are zilch.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: GUEST,Mountain Tyme
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:21 PM

Silly River Sage

"Heatalator" hasn't changed much in 40 years. The units still sell very well. Any good contractor supply has anything (new or replacment parts)you could need. The fireback is very thin for serious woodburning so a cast iron fireback is a good idea. The "smokeshelf" (flue control) is not at all a good design. Much smoke can be aleviated by modifying the draft for your purpose. The motor and squirrl cage are a standard product available from any good mill supply.

Mountain Tyme

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Gypsy
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 11:14 AM

I'm in the US, but when we sprung for a new woodstove (all others purchased used, kluged togther, etc) we got a Waterford........More than i ever paid for a car, and well worth it. And yes, you can get the water heater attachment for it.....i opted for the warming oven instead. Have huge stock pot for when need hot water for a shower.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:53 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

wilco48, that was very funny!

I had a cat that used to sleep UNDER the wood burning stove. She stayed until she got too warm, at which point she would head for the lineoleum-covered concrete kitchen floor and splay herself out to dissipate the heat before heading back under the stove again.

I'm in the U.S. with a different sort of question. I don't have a wood burning stove, but my fireplace is old enough to have been built with a blower and a hot air chamber under the ember bed. I moved in here six months ago so have not until now had occasion to remember that the fan doesn't work. Anyone know of an outlet source for parts for a "Heatalator" or similar devices? I wasn't able to find much on the web last time I searched.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: John J
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:34 AM

Gosh, thanks everbody. I'm off to the telephone to make some calls right away!
I'll report back.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: GUEST,Mountain Tyme
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 12:28 PM

Well Murray MacLeod you ought visit a still in your neighborhood for a sampling :)

We are talking of a natural convection siphon here. Heat rises.

An existing or newly purchased stove would need have two holes drilled through into the firebox, for the copper tube, at each end of the coil, to have an entrance and an exit. The copper tube of cold water must enter the firebox lower than the hotter exit copper tube. (one in the same tube of copper possibly ten feet long with about ½ inch internal dia.)

This copper tube entering and exiting the firebox has a coil fashioned by you within the firebox. Attempt to get as much copper, coil/coils (heat transfer surface) as possible within the firebox.

The copper coil should be placed latterly as best to accept the infra red spectrum of the fire within the firebox. Take care when installing the copper tube to somehow protect the copper from being deformed while charging the fire box.

A tank/tanks placed (horizontal or vertical) above the stove become another part of this "closed system" and is connected at its bottom (lowest tank tap) to the cold input (lowest) of the fire box. Conversely, the firebox top exit (highest) of hot water is connected to the top (highest tank tap) hot input of the "expansion" tank.

Mount the tank/tanks soundly! (water, hot or cold is heavy! (about seven pounds per gallon.)

A cold water connection from your cold water system (to the lowest possible input tap) will keep the "heat exchanger" "expansion" "tank" filled.

The location of the tap/taps for your usage of the (free) hot water is your choice.

A pressure sensitive safety blow off valve (with manual option) at the top of the "expansion" tank is a good idea as it is possible the system will make steam before you can quickly enough slow the heat source. At this temperature point you would have a nasty bomb in you house! Begin with small fires and work up toward your limitations.

A water temperature gauge on the "expansion" tank gives peace of mind.
As long as the copper is always kept filled with water, there is no danger to the "soft" copper tubing melting from the heat of the fire.

One more thing to consider is the flow velocity of the water thru your hand fashioned "closed loop" hot water system. When the water flows to quickly (as when using a "circulator pump" to move the water), fewer BTU's are transferred to the water. Conversely, to slow a flow (restricted or natural) with to much heat, will make steam. Depending on what flow you find best useful in the ratio of heat vs flow, installing an adjustable flow valve somewhere along the coolest part of the loop will give you aid in obtaining the best economy (if needed) and the most safety. (needed)

Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 04:43 AM

Try Able Fuels 01484 350 388 and Bower & Child 01484 425 416, both in Huddersfield, both retail and such items.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 03:38 AM

Charlton's Builder Supplies, Hexham-on-Tyne.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 06:33 PM

Mountain Tyme, I am having problems envisaging how your system works.

Does the copper coil (closed at one end, presumably) simply sit on top of the stove ? Seems an inefficient method of heat transfer, but I could well be missing something ....

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Llanfair
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 05:24 PM

PM about some local dealers, I'll find out more tomorrow.

Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: GUEST,mountain tyme
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 03:19 PM

A "back-boiler" in these parts (USA) are offered as an accessory to an existing stove.
You can make one very inexpensively from a coil of copper tubing (mine was recycled from my old lightning still after I built a more efficient still)piped to a tank mounted above the coil. Bigger the diameter the more flow. One half inch inside diameter works well.
The heated water in the copper will rise into the above tank replacing the cold water. No electricity just physics.
If you care to have more reserve hot water, add more holding tanks in series connecting them to each other with large diameter auto radiator hose and use auto thermostadts installed in the hoses to control the temperature. Take care to position the thermostadts active side. Warm in to the top, cold out the bottom.
Happy showers!

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM

Country Stoves, Meir Street, Tunstall, Stoke on Trent. 01782 838921.
A couple of years ago I bought some parts for my stove there. The stock wasnt huge, but it had what I wanted. Should be worth a phonecall.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: John J
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:30 AM

Now there's a thing! The good folks at George Street Loft are sending me some stuff through the post today. I'll report back.

Mum's doing fine thanks. Bernard has been doing sterling work in tweeking her PC for maximum smoke. She's been off the internet for a while 'cos of a nasty virus that even Norton couldn't shift...but they hadn't reckoned with Bernard! What a star he is.

Did you do the GNR this year? I did (again!), crossing the finish line in 2:04 on the clock, 1:59 ish from crossing the start line. The next target is 1:59 fro the gun going off!

I did the Karrimor last weekend, it makes road racing seem like a gentle walk in the park on a sunny Sunday afternoon, but what a lot of fun! Check out www.kimm.com and you too could get hooked on mountain marathons!

I'll be in touch when the woodburning stuff comes through.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: wilco
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:25 AM

I also once lived in an exceptionally messy house, and things were often misplaced. However, I have never had to search for my wood-burning stove. Of course, mine was made in Sweden, a Jotul, and it it never moved by itself. However, if I were trying to find a stove, on a cold night, I would look for the source of the heat. If the stove is not currently warm, look above the debris line (piles of clothes and books), in the general area that the stove was last seen, and follow the stove pipe down. I once had a similiar experience with one of my childen, when he started to crawl.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 10:53 AM

Hi John, long time no talk. How's yer mum. Please send her my love.

Now, woodburners. I need to buy one at the murment, but without a back boiler. Would buying two give us any extra clout?

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: John J
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 10:38 AM

Thanks for the info folks:

Bron, I've just sent you a PM.
Greg, could you let me have a name / phone number or two.
HuwG: I phoned the place in Glossop, he's sending me some guff in the post.

Thanks again,

John

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:20 AM

There's quite a good place in Tunstall(Stoke on Trent) if that's anywhere near you.

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: HuwG
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:17 AM

You might try:

George Street Loft
Address: 31 George Street, Glossop, Derbyshire
Telephone: [phone]
Web: www.multifuel.com

Subject: RE: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: Llanfair
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:17 AM

PM me. John. There are a few places round here.
There's even a rayburn at the dump to be recycled!!!
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: BS: Woodburning stoves search
From: John J
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:49 AM

Apologies for a non-music query, but I'm struggling.

I'm in NW england, and I'm trying to buy (at a sensible price) a wood burning / multifuel stove which has a back boiler for hot water.

Machine Mart sell them at reasonable prices, but without a back boiler.

Any suggestions please!

Thanks,

John