Key changes - what are the rules?

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 11:02 AM

Not withstanding Gargoyle's comments, a keychange to the IV is used a lot, and is generally well received--"Hey, Jude" for instance----

As becomes obvious, many things are possible, and what pleases Gargoyle may not interest Murray--What you do and how you do it, really comes down a matter of your taste--Of course, your audience's taste will be the final arbiter--

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Allan C.
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:32 AM

Thanks for all the great tips, folks. I knew I could count on you.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Barry T
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 10:53 PM

I think that the changes you personally choose also depend on factors like the instrument being played, the "user friendly" keys playable on that instrument, and ability of the player to play in the new keys. Vocal range has already been mentioned as a possible limiting factor on the key change you engineer.

One folk group that really impressed me with their creative key changes was the New Christy Minstrels. Here's a midi of 'Today', where they used two half-step key changes with a seventh chord to make the connection. In the first instance they made the change halfway through a chorus... which they don't even finish. But its effect is beautiful!

My favourite modern orchestra leader who performs magic with key changes is James Last. If you ever get a chance to hear his albums like Op Klompen (Dutch folk songs) or Last of Old England (English traditional tunes) you will find them to be textbooks of brilliant arranging.

I love to muck around with key changes when I sequence midi files for my tunebook website. (It's fun because I don't have to play the music... just flick my mouse!) You, too, can dabble if you have midi sequencing software.

Here are a few pleasantly successful experiments...

Ah! Si mon moine voulait danser!

La feuille ronde

Canadian Folk 'Overture' (Get a coffee before you click this one... it's five minutes long!)

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Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 08:06 PM

Hmmmm ....

Moving from C to B is "magical", Garg? In a song, you mean? As a total key change, not just a chord change (like "I Remember You")? I don't think so ....

Also I would have to disagree that C to D is "magical", (at least in a song). Ref greg stephens point above about G to A.

"Hackneyed but effective" would be my choice of adjectives. And I speak as one who uses this cliche all the time. "Okie from Muskogee" just wouldn't be the same without that gear change in the last verse.

Murray

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:50 PM

Well, I know what I'm doing tonight. Trying to merge Leeneia and Gargoyle's ideas and seeing what happens. Much more productive than the idiot tube.

CC

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:39 PM

The "Rule of Thumb" I was taught, is...move to a key at least 2 sharps or flats from the key signiture you are currently in.

A move from C to the keys of F or G does not "work" because the transitional keys are too similar..but a move to D or B is "magical" to the ear.

My rule of thumb is the same thing CatsPHiddle is saying.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 06:26 PM

All I know is, if you move from G to A on a fiddle it sounds great, but do it do a song and sounds contrived and pathetic. Why? Who knows.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 06:11 PM

Here is a good way. Somebody already said it, but I will say it again. Think of the new key. Think of the fifth note in the scale of the new key. Then play that chord, only with a seventh added. Bring out the dissonance a bit. When you move to the new key, you are "home."

For example, to move to the key of D, play an A7 for a while, then go to D. This works well for keys which are related.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 05:55 PM

All I can tell you is that a lot of fiddle tunes go from G to A or A to E. Sometimes to a relative minor. Not much help, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 05:28 PM

The short answer is relative majors & minors. If your song starts in C, you can change to A minor, F or G major, or D or E minor. After that, yes you can get away with it, but you need to know what you're doing & how to justify it...

The strongest chord changes (regardless of whether you're changing key or not) are movement by a 4th/5th, followed by movement by a 2nd. If you are going to change key this is where you need to do it, & preferably do it by a perfect cadence (V-I) to emphasize the change...

Otherwise go & study classical theory if you really want it in-depth...

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 04:16 PM

It can be effective, so long as you never try to do it with a traditional folk song. (There maybe are some traditions in some far flung partsd of the world where that doesn't hold, but not the kind of songs you tend to find in the DT anyways.)

Meself I think it sounds best with no transitional chords, just move on up one or two semitones.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 03:09 PM

My mate Steve Benbow likes to do the last verse a half or sometime a full tone higher than the main body of the song.Great fun when I am
busking along on whistle.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 03:04 PM

The page referenced above gives definitions, but not any direction as to what works where--

Common key changes are the one mentioned above, moving up a full step, and (epecially in Pop/Rock music) moving up a half step--the most common way to do it is by way of a "pivot chord", which is most always simply the V7 chord in the new key(say you are in G,and want to change to A, you play your G, then go to E7 and then to A)--

Another popular key change is the one PeterT mentions, moving to the key of the VI simply go from the G to G7(this is a pivot chord, as well)-then you resolve to the C--if you want, then go to C7 and resolve to F, F7 and resolve to Bb--you can go on til you come back to G if you want, this is really what the circle of Fourths is all about--

I used to work with a guy who liked to play "Never on a Sunday" over and over, moving it up a half step at a time--I leave you to decide whether this is a good idea or not--

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:43 PM

Chord...it can go to the II in the third inversion (IIc) then move to chord V then naturally it could go to a chord I.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:41 PM

ANd if that is a strain on the voice, a modulation into the relative II as a new I is also often done.

A

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:26 PM

Lots of people use the Vth of a key as the I of a new key.

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:10 PM

Allan--

I'm sure that's a good site & I plan to check it myself. In the meantime, for a quickie answer: You can generally go up a whole step on the last verse to 'pump up' the ending. For more ambition, I've heard "Sit Down Young Stranger" (Lightfoot), which is a conversation, taken up a whole step every time the speaker changes. That takes vocal range. Also heard 'progressive' Amazing Grace taken up a whole step on every verse. That's for multiple voices so the harmonies change as it goes up and different parts become possible-impossible.

Another simple thing that works is ending a minor song on the parallel major. (The fancy way to say 'the major on the same note as the minor,' so you don't have to bother with relatives.) Like, I do "Wayfaring Stranger" in Am, but on the last note, play A. Or having done a few verses of "House of the Rising Sun" in the blues version in Dm, change to Woodie's version in D.

Only thing I know about passing chords is that you can go from G to C via G7. I'll pick a melody in G and then just pass G-G7-C, which means the highest note on the high E is moving down, but then you fool 'em because when the melody starts again in the key of C it's higher than it was in G, not lower as the downward progression might lead one to suspect.

For whatever that's worth.

CC

Subject: RE: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 01:26 PM

Try this web http://orpheus.la.utk.edu/music/resources/theory/notes/modulation.html

Subject: Key changes - what are the rules?
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 12:14 PM

There are some songs I play on guitar that could be improved, I think, by changing the key before the last verse and/or chorus. The little I remember from taking music theory a zillion years ago is that there are certain rules of thumb about what intervals of change produce the most pleasant results. (Now that I think about it, I never learned anything beyond 18th Century rules for writing choral music, so no wonder I don't remember this!)

Coupled with this question is that of which transitional chords are most commonly used to accomplish such a change. I ask this knowing full well that there are many instances in which one simply begins the next section of a tune in the new key (as is often done in reels and jigs, for example.)

Gosh! I just realized that there may be different rules dependent upon whether the key is major or minor. Are there?