Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 01:06 PM

I should add, I'm not suggesting any method is better than another any more than any user is more right or wrong than another. We basically are talking about different means to achieve the same ends and we as people, whether looking at it from our own design views or as users have our own ways of thinking...

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 12:46 PM

I'd never use the reverse sort either and find it very confusing but facilities to enable this were requested (by Jeri) and it was simple to do (if reverse then SQL$ = SQL$ & " DESC".

Looking through the member list at folkinfo, and from memory at the Annexe, there seem to be people who do prefer it that way.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 09:14 AM

Treewind, I think your suggestion is a good one. I don't often use the paged format because I don't read from the main threads page and that's the only place the link exists. I use "Messages Since Last Visit." I also don't want to load the first page if I've been following the thread.

I don't believe any features of Mudcat design yet exist to force people to do what someone thinks they ought to do. It's designed so people can access threads as easily as possible.

It also doesn't matter if people read threads from start to finish because they still post according to their own personal agendas. There's also no guarantee that people will read the thread and be able to figure out what the topic is, let alone stick to it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: treewind
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 08:15 AM

FWIW:
I entirely agree with Catspaw that people should read the thread before posting. Hovewever, that's an argument for not having the split threads feature at all.

My belief (I may be wrong) is that the majority of people who use the split threads feature do so because they have been following the thread and don't want to wait for the whole thing to load before they can see the latest message - in otherwords, like me, they go straight to the last page as soon as the link is offered.

It's worth pointing out that if the majority of users do in fact do this, the current default is wasteful of host bandwidth and CPU power because of the time wasted sending the first page when the user isn't going to read it. Having a tiny page with just the links, or NicoleC's suggestion of offering the pages from the threads list would help with that.

If you want to read the first page (first), you might as well load the full thread anyway. You can start reading the early messages before the others have finished loading.

Somebody mentioned overlap between pages: this wouldn't be a bad idea, maybe with the overlapped messages marked in some way so it's clear what they are.

I don't advocate the option of displaying the message in reverse order - that's far too confusing for me and I'd never use it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: rangeroger
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 09:11 PM

Joe Offer, I use webtv to access The Mudcat, and I really enjoy the Page feature as it is.On threads that I have been following it is only a matter of seconds to load the first page and then click on the page I want to go to.

On threads that I haven't read yet, the first page loads quickly and then I can continue on to subsequent pages.I have not had a problem with overly long download times or an inability to load an entire thread until the number of posts begin to approach 400. I experimented with the "Killing The Thread" and bogged down at 383.

I have noticed,that with the new feature, the threads seem to longer before dropping off and there also seem to be more posts to new threads in a very short period of time. Whether this is due to the page building feature or not I don't know.

I have a 56k dial up modem in my receiver.

rr

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 09:07 PM

I also have a high-speed cable modem connection but I do sometimes use the thread segment feature, especially on the “10 obscure things” thread. But I've noticed that that there really isn't much point in presenting the segmented viewing option unless we've already gone into the third segment. The option always loads the first segment and if we're currently adding posts in the second segment the net result is a longer total wait time instead of a shorter one.

There probably won't be consensus on which order to use in presenting segments but it might be useful to always load two segments until such time as a third one is created. After that, just load one segment and present the choice.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 08:57 PM

The following thread gives a useful suggestion about how to make browsing mudcat easier - BLICKY
I am not at all sure if it helps the TV Set-top-box users, but it is worth checking out.
Quack!
GtD!

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM

On the other hand Mr Dixon, the PEL laws do have the potential to ruin folk music in the UK.

I felt shambles/Roger Gall was going over the top but, for an alternative view point, I'd suggest you read this from uk.music.folk before passing judgement.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 07:25 PM

We've already got a facility for checking whether there have been any more posts on a thread - the "messages since last visit" under "Quick Links", up the head of the page. You can set your links to the Mudcat so that they go directly there instead of to the main forum index, if you like. (I say "they" instead of "it", because I assume people have multiple links to the various servers rather than just the one to www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm).

What would make the "messages since last visit" more convenient would be if there was a reset button for that actually on the forum page, which would make it easier to push it just before logging off, and keep it up to date. (Just an idea for some future modification, no hurry - along with a preview facility for PMs.)

What I still tend to do with threads I've been following is forget to click along to the most recent page of fifties, which means I find myself reading posts that seem oddly familiar, until the penny drops, normally when I come to one of my own. I don't think that's such a bad thing either. Makes me less likely to repeat myself, a failing I share with quite a few others here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 07:15 PM

spaw, I think I see your point so please don't take it wrongly.

In any system of life there will always be abusers and those that have genuine needs. For my part, I'd rather help the needy and accept that there may be a minority that do abuse the help. I prefer this to barring the needy because others manage to abuse the system.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:22 PM

Speaking of bandwidth, let's have a new prefix "PEL". That would save bandwith by stopping me from clicking on threads I don't really want to read!

It would also help to have more descriptive thread titles.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:01 PM

All true Jon....and I don't want to fight either. But I tell ya' I just don't care about making it any easier for them NOT to read. That's my problem really..............I just stay pissed though!!!(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 05:31 PM

OR, one thing I hand't thought of in my last post. I think the "post box" here shows on all pages. A person not interested in anything other than passing their views could simply open the first page under the current system and not read the more recent additions.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 05:19 PM

spaw, I don't want to be getting into a fight but:

I think there will always be people who jump to the end regardless and would probably still do so even if they were forced to go to the first page. They wouldn't read but would just click on last page straight away. You won't change that.

On the other hand, there are people with slow connections who have been following a thread and simply want to catch up. It's those who should be helped and IMO allowing a person to go directly to the last page does just that.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 05:00 PM

Yep, it's true I have a cable modem and I load the entire thread. However, I have had a long running aversion to people posting without reading the thread dating back to when I had only a dial-up 56. This still doesn't force anyone to read the thread but it can't hurt.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:38 PM

Dear Spaw,

I believe you have a fast cable connection?

If you were to use a 28Kbps modem, you may fell differently.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:28 PM

Only mentioning this as it came about as a result of various user requests at the Annexe, i.e. different members of Mudcat prefering different things.

We just give users a choice how they would normaly want to open a thread from the forum page and build the links in the thread listing accordingly. It's not perfect but it overcomes the sort of problem John mentioned.

Open first page first
Open last page first
First page first but posts in reverse order

Where last post first is used, we carry a balance of up to 9 posts from the previous page. This is to try to reduce the need for users to go back a page to see if anything has been missed - quite likely when the last page only contains one or two posts.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:26 PM

Hi Joe, I use Internet TV and the new pages system works fine for me.
Thanks.john

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:20 PM

I, too, dislike going to the first page only to have to click to a page. Most of the time I just load the whoel thread.

What if instead of the number of messages being a hyperlink, we saw the number of messages and the pages? I.E.

156* [1][2][3][4]

That way, people could choose the page they want to jump to from the thread list.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:15 PM

Actually, I don't use the feature at all - I load the entire thread. I'll start using the thread-splitting feature and see how it workds.
I'd like to hear from WEBTV and other Internet Television users, since they're the ones who seam to need the thread-splitting feature most.
It's right that displaying last page first might encourage some people to join a discussion without reading what's been aid already, and that's a problem.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:10 PM

Leave it alone Joe....If they can't take the time to read a thread, don't post to it!! The system as is is not that cumbersome to be worth changing simply because someone wants to save a few seconds in getting to the last page. If you've kept up with the thread then it just takes a tiny extra bit....If you haven't and your time is so precious (and opinion so valuable)......kiss off.

Leave it alone.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:05 PM

I like it the way it is too...especially long threads that I've kept up with from the beginning, and only want to read latest ones. And the fact that the last page is at the "end" seems intuitively right.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:42 PM

Well, the feature is primarily meant to help those who have trouble loading long threads. The way it is now, they have to load the first page before they can get to a link to get to the last page. Seems to me, it would be best to take them to a page with links to all the pages for a thread (but no messages on that page of links), or to take them direct to the last page with links to the others.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:37 PM

FWIW - I like the page numbers being in sequence, as they are now.

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

But...But...But

Isn't one of our "problems" that too many people go to the end of the thread and start posting without reading what's already there.

Don't you get a choice, at the top, which page to go to?

My biggest complaint with going to "pages" is it only "turns" the "number" when you've been in, not the thread name - so it makes it a lot harder to tell if something new has been posted since you were there. I'll confess that I sometimes click on the "pages" to look at it, and when I'm done reading, click the thread and then "Back" just to mark the thread - and I feel guilty about the extra bandwidth, but it makes it easier for me.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:14 PM

Thanks, Anahata, I thought so, too - but I forgot to tell Jeff that when we were testing it. I'll send the suggestion on to him.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Tech: Mudcat usability suggestion
From: treewind
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:55 PM

It's only a minor niggle, but...

The new system for loading long threads a page at a time is a great time saver, but every time I go into a thread by clicking on the 'number of messages' entry, the next thing I do is invariably click on the link for the last page in the sequence.

Wouldn't it be better if the 'number of messages' link was to the last page rather than the first?

Anahata