Northumbrian Anthology

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: shepherdlass
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:19 PM

Yes, I've heard those excuses from real ale brewers too. Went to the Ringwood Brewery near Southampton a few years back - saw the man talking about the fabulous equipment and the slow processes involved (this thing was obviously his baby), but he didn't get to tell us that much about it because we were accompanied on the trip by several Hell's Angels (lovely lads, one and all) who kept leaning on his shoulder and muttering (with only a hint of menace), "When do we get to drink the beer?" Now, that's how to do it.

A lecture tour, that's a good idea. Newcastle Uni's folk degree often have visiting lecturers, though I don't think they've had anyone from ower the pond yet. Worth a punt?

Jude

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:58 AM

I can understand the real ale problem.....

trouble is that those in the micro brew and real ale designer beer industry have still not been able to make their product affordable in quantity. Part of this is a status thing but also part because they have to pay for all the expensive equipment or so they claim....

If it is priced to compete then it will do well in upsetting the popular brews. Another problem is that I find designer beers too rich for the type of consumption I am often looking to accomplish.

Flavor is important but when things get too hopped up and rich quantity drinking becomes impossible.

I always prefered X over brown ale.

I miss durham where I was at university my second year. Perhaps I will return for a tour some time- perhaps a lecture tour on the music....anyone got a good grant?

Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: shepherdlass
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 05:16 AM

Hi Conrad and Dave

Yes, I agree totally about the middle class tendency to stamp on working class celebration (New Labour's latest assault on "binge drinking" springs to mind).

Mind you, even good old Tommy Armstrong occasionally showed the downside of spreeing. In Bobby and Bet, although the story has humorous intentions, something tells me that there's a fundamental truth in poor old Bet's experience - sipping gin at home then getting abuse from her husband who's been having a far better time down the pub. And that goes right back to the poor lass that "married a keelman", and was definitely not enjoying things like "Wor Nan". I reckon that's a gender thing rather than a class one, and drink is a symptom, not a cause.

But there are class elements in tipple of choice too - real ale as opposed to Fed fizz; red wine versus alcopops. Sadly I fit into the former pattern, which probably marks me out as irredeemably upwardly mobile (ugh!). Couldn't rediscover my roots from downing bottles of Brown, either, because I originated from the NW Durham teetotal Methodist (Ribena for communion wine) wing of leftie dissenters!

Yours in confused identity
Jude

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:27 PM

exactly.
That is why you can see in the work of Tommy Armstrong the spectrum which runs from songs of tragedy to the dark humour of evictions to nan and her spree.....

You get angry with the bosses and the beurocrats but you leave those having a good time in their own way alone.

That is not what we see today.
This is largely due to the empowerment of the middle class.
The middle class looks down on all tradational forms of exuberance from life in the exuberant pubs to football suporter culture to bonfire. They are too busy trying to become bosses! And masters!

The geordies are the cowboys of the region. The ones now targeted as causing all that is wrong where in reality their lifeway is all that we have to keep us going despite the wrongs of the world.

In Baltimore you get rid of the cowboys by charging $5.00 for a beer and not selling it in pitchers. Because you can no longer discriminate against race or ethnicity you discriminate against cultural tendencies.

This is why at the school where I worked for most of the past year no one socializes after work. Because....If anyone knew of your exuberant side or that you drink you would not have a job.

We must keep in mind however that our terms such as Geordie are not much more than ice tongs grabbing into the big block of the culture writ large. Just pincers that can only do so much for us.

The songs are best when preserved and sung- their use is in creative re-use the activities they describe help us to give value to the activities we see around us and to give them glory and tolerance as they add to life the same color they are given in the song. Even if they may have never existed they are damn good ideas.....

Point as some would at the negative aspects of an exuberant lifestyle on the edge one can find just as many faults in the conservative lifeway of cultural issolation and discrimination found within the lives of our newly empowered middle class cultureless sterile cultures of suburbias.

          Conrad Bladey Peasant

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM

Joe Wilson said
"Keep your feet still Geordie hinny,
Let's be happy through the neet.
FOR WE MAY NOT BE SO HAPPY THROUGH THE DAY

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:18 PM

As Joe Wilson's life shows there are both sides.

I have not difficulty with someone putting forth their own lifeway but do not at all care for someone telling the other they should not exist.

Geordies come in all flavors shapes and sizes.

The important aspect is that they share the elements of their culture out of which they construct their individual realities be they at one poll or the other.

That we can recognize both Jez and Priests as belonging to a whole along with both sides of Joe Wilson is the main concern.

Yes! you do have to laugh or else you'll cry.
The rant it is a special place for those who like it there!

Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:53 AM

Harry Pearson, a Teesside writer, wrote in his book -- The Corner Flag: A Mazy Dribble through North East Football -- "If you put a Geordie in a pot and boiled him down to his essence you'd end up with a little spot of Prozac. If you boiled a Teessider down, he wouldn't be at all surprised." By which he meant, I think, Geordies are incurably optimistic. That said, some of the most miserable bastards I've ever known are from the N.E. Perhaps it's a case of Tom Hawk; you have to laugh or else you'll cry. ;o)

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: shepherdlass
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:01 AM

Conrad, the anti-spree brigade probably sprang up in reaction to the general perception of Geordies in the media. Am I right you're based in USA? If so you probably won't yet have sampled the "delights" of Newcastle-based cop show, "55 degrees North". It's quite decent in places, except for its portrayal of the locals (the Geordies all seem to be drunken line-dancers, ignorant racists or joyriders). Such assumptions mean you can only go one of two ways - you can try to show the North Easterners' more sensitive side (like Jez Lowe) or push the partying to its utmost limits and turn it to good celebratory use (Priests). Right now, I'm trying to decide whether most stuff from the North East oscillates between these two extremes (like Joe Wilson, going all temperance in later life) - we're a funny lot, aren't we?

Cheers
Jude

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 06:39 PM

Trouble with Jez is he doesnt make you run out and get a pint of broon or X and do the same throughout the toon. I like his music but he dwells on the down side which is not difficult when surrounded by the problems of the N.E. I understand. Even the Whisky priests have an anti Geordie song....I guess it is trendy to be the anti spree sort of folk these days.

And a Mazer I'll try to remain!

Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: shepherdlass
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 04:41 PM

Conrad - I saw Whiskey Priests live back in 1989 - VERY high energy and good fun, though for many they're probably an acquired taste in the same way as Jim Moray. Since then have only heard recordings, which according to the individual song and its treatment I either love or loathe (they're that kind of band). Dol-li-a is class in the same way as that B Johnson version of "Byker Hill"!

BigPinkLad - The Davy Lamp is a really well run club - very open-minded to traditional and contemporary floorsingers, good use of the sound system, and a traditional tunes session before the start of the club night, so get there early if you want to play.    Used to go there quite often (till moving abroad then having a family hammered the old social life!).

Hope you get to see Jez Lowe - he's great. The Canadian/NorthEastern links run pretty deep. There seem to be loads of Canadian tunes in the repertoire of people like Alistair Anderson, Will Taylor and Will ATkinson, and I recently met a member of the Nova Scotian miners' choir, Men of the Deeps (they include a Johnny Handle song in their repertoire). Right, off to check out that link.

Cheers, Jude

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:55 PM

Whisky priests are about the opposite of Jez Lowe- lots of high energy but with his same dedication to the culture and sincerity.
I think you can get their cds from the web page somehow- try the earlier ones.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 12:32 PM

I am familiar with the Whiskey Priests, Conrad, although I am yet to see them perform. I will be 'home' next summer and I'm looking forward to getting to some folk clubs in the NE. I hear the Davy Lamp in Washington is pretty good -- you been there, Jude? Conversely, Jez Lowe is coming over here (Vancouver, BC) next April and will be playing a gig with local folkie Tim Readman. You can get a taste of Tim, the Northumbrian exile, here: http://www.timreadman.com/index_music.html

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:58 AM

You left out the Whiskey Priests!
They were the ones to get me moving on my collection and transcription efforts. If you do not yet know of them their web page will provide the details.

http://www.whiskypriests.co.uk/

They have been quiet for a while but promise to do a bit more in this their anaversary year.

Highly recommended as a continuation of the tradition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:45 PM

I have three works (books) of my own that have touched on the geographic boundary of Northumbria. Here's my two pennyworth:

Since the rise in fortunes of Newcastle United (the Keegan era) there has been a corresponding profile given to things Geordie, even attempts to define the term geographically. This has smacked to me from parochialism at best to simply an attempt to exclude the Mackems from the feast. During the run of the highly successful What Cheeor Geordie radio show in the 50s & 60s the term Geordie included Tynesiders, Wearsiders and Durhamites for sure (witness the words to 'Wherever you go you're sure to find a Geordie'). Even now some believe the term Northumbrian means Northumberlanders and excludes the rest. More lenient folks in the North East will accept Tweed to Tees, but for some of my work it suits my purpose to include Tweed to Humber. For my culinary project I have even expanded it to its full historic expanse from Edinburgh south to Hull.

As far as music goes, well. Prior to the industrial revolution I can only guess -- there must have been monastic and other church music of course as it was a centre of Christianity. We don't know for sure the Northumbrian pipes did or did not exist, only that there seems to be no mention of them until relatively recently. Fertile ground for the military, who were musical among the ranks and like all British troops well-travelled. Long established fishing industry and its traditions. I think in those days it must have been very like any other part of Britain with music outside of church confined to fairs and travelling minstrels.

With the Industrial Revolution the incomers must have brought along new traditions: Cornish, Irish, Scots, Welsh et al so that the region became very cosmopolitan. I think the 'Geordie' was born of this era.

It may be heresy, but I don't believe there is a Northumbrian music, just music made Northumbrian by its content and rendition.

And yes, Brian Johnson's Byker Hill is now part of my own repartoire -- I believe modern rendition is essential to keeping the folk music alive. I think without Lindisfarne, Katheryn Tickell, Sting, Mark Knopfler, the Hush, etc. producing 'new' Northunmbrian music over the last three decades, we'd be looking back at those lovelty songs from Brannigan's generation as a dead genre.

Sorry for the long post.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 04:17 PM

Margaret Barry is Great-

Whilst at university at Durham in the NE I ran into folkie students of education and was exposed to Barry and others. It just so happened that these same folks visited the usa via greyhound bus the next summer. Lo and behold we went to the smithsonian folklife festival on the mall and walking along side of us was margaret barry.

I really like her version of the Galway Shawl. So nice when it is sung as a ballad with a strong voice. As it should be played if no one is dancing.

In regard to voice- not just the bigness but the style too. Barry had a big voice but still the arabesque of the gypsey celtic style. Brannigan however was much more formal in presentation- one sees a formal suit polished shoes and grand piano.....

Brannigan however does do wonders with the dialect. His is the best rendition of When the Boat comes in- Dance to your Mammy/daddy. His pronunciation of "bloater" is fantastic.

            Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: GUEST,judetheshepherd
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 02:26 PM

Thanks to both Conrad and TheBigPinkLad(!).

Conrad, I'm very much with you on the shifting purposes of these songs - it's this very ambiguity (between print and oral traditions; and between the homespun and the commercial) which I think makes music from the North East a special case. By the way, have you ever heard the rumour that Tommy Armstrong wrote a ballad for the Stanley explosion (1909, I think)? Some people are convinced he must've done this and the ballad's been lost, but I can't quite believe something as important locally would have just disappeared.

As to operatic renditions - yeah, exactly: I agree that it depends on the sensitivity of the individual singer to different musical styles -nowt inherently wrong with big voices (just think of Margaret Barry)!

BigPinkLad - Talking of big voices ... isn't Brian Johnson's version of "Byker Hill" just fantastic?

If you want to follow up on additional questions, the main one is - what is your personal definition of Northumbrian music? Where are its geographical and stylistic boundaries? Tricky one, I know - I reckon it's one of those unanswerables, but I'd love to hear as many subjective opinions on it as possible.

Thanx, Jude

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology/delivery of N. Songs
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:56 AM

My only problem is that I am a peasant deeper in debt every day and the collection is pricey....If you like Brannigan who is simply wonderful try ebay where I recently obtained two of his disks....
A great singer.

A word about the operatic delivery aspect.

The music of Northumbria went through many phases. Most of the songs created were created in the late 19th century.
A fair perportion of these were created as newspaper pieces and one wonderes whether they were ever sung although tune names are provided.

These are important as they build on the earlier tradition using bits of it as in a tinker toy set.

Another purpose for the creation of songs was for music hall performance.
These performances had their own standards. Some were intended to be humerous but others could be performed more classically as parlor song hits. See the work of joe wilson and others for these.

Again they were built of the bits and pieces of the earlier tradition but the modes of presentation were authentic for the time. Were they sung more casually? Maybe....

Yet another purpose for song creation was driven by publishers wishing to put out songbooks. A good number of the 19th century newcastle song writers were in fact printers or had worked in publishing.

Tommy Armstrong wrote his songs for performance over beer in the pubs and often as commissions....Even here they tend to be well suited for ballad performance rather than spontanious singing although this may have also occured. They are more structured than for example a traditional drinking ditty often including lengthy recitations.

Why were these collections created

Of course they could be used for singing in the home or in the parlor. Another purpose was to collect the songs which were printed one at a time in the papers or on broadsides. Song writers would run in off the streets to sell a new song as well.....

My recent interest however, is in another purpose driving all of this.
This purpose could well have been city promotion. Newcastle grew at an amazing rate from 1790-1900. Although many of the political scandals are also captured in the songs most songs portray the city as a quaint and canny place filled with eccentrics, great opportunities to endulge in romantic observation of these and of course there is the wild bar scene.....With these come a fair number of romantic descriptions of the environs. This dimension of song collections make them prime resources for those wising to develop intrest in town expansion. Great things for the cocknies from Lunnen getting off the train with an inclanation to stay.....

Conrad

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:30 PM

I bought the anthology Jude. I'm not entirely sure what you need to know, but if you want to pm me with your list of questions , fire away.

There are bits of the collection I could happily never listen to again, but they tend to be of operatic delivery and I'm first to admit I'm a bit of a moron when it comes to Fat Ladies singing. That said, I love Owen Brannigan!

Other stuff is not to my taste but it's very definitely folk by the strictest definition -- i.e. kept alive by rendition. Brian Johnson belts out some very AC/DC-esque tunes that I think sit well in the collection -- I'm sure some traditionalists will disagree!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: GUEST,judetheshepherd
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 02:20 PM

OPINIONS PLEASE!

I'm currently writing something about Northumbrian music and would really appreciate the comments of anyone who's managed to get hold of this collection (or some parts of it). Did Johnny Handle and the rest of the team get the geographical area, the stylistic boundaries, etc, right? Who or what have they missed?

In my personal view, the main criticism is a tendency towards orchestrated arrangements which may say a lot about the sources of funding and expected market. But surely there's some truth in Martin Carthy's glass analogy (BBC2, July 23 2004): if we treat traditional music as some precious thing which mustn't be dirtied we're hurting it far more than by using it - PERFORMING it - however we can? let me know what you think

Cheers
Jude

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:10 PM

I heard about this effort from a radio personality from Radio Newcastle. I was on the air with them discussing Guy Fawkes Bonfire and local music came up.
If you seek Newcastle stuff you might find consulting my "Beuk" of Sangs
to the songs click here

There are hundreds of lyrics a good number with tunes.
Once I get out of the christmas season I shall be back at work at transcribing lyrics from original sources. I try to center my collection efforts around Newcastle but it is hard not to be regional as well.
I have covered most of the major sources but there are some songs left out of the first sweep through. Most of Allans songs are there. So watch the web page and you will see a bit of growth soon....

One of the goals of my work is to put together a dictionary of persons characters and place names. This was going well until a group of sources of songs came up. Once songs are all in I will return to that work.

By the way.....this collection has been done without any grant and is free for the use of the entire world 24/7. This includes all of the on line libraries of the world which is quite a few.

Those who wish to help cover the costs are welcome to send in donations which can be done via our help page link at:
http://www.cbladey.com

We derive a bit of funding through the sale of publications. You can go to our catalog also via this link to Hutman Productions

We just finished a hymnal for wassail, expanded the Guy Fawkes Pamphlet book and we continue to work on an assortment of topics when we can get the gas in the car which is not as often as I would like......

A merry christmas and happy new year to one and all!

Conrad Bladey
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:31 PM

Super, thanks for the info!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 05:42 PM

I got this from Newcastle Uni:

You should contact Tim Cantle-Jones at Polar Productions, Plummer
Tower, Croft Street, Newcastle NE1 6NG; phone [phone]; e-mail:
[e-mail]

Thanks for the legwork ... I've banged off a request for pricing and I'll post when I get a reply. Merry Crispness!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:21 PM

Oh, well, too bad, Guest. So kind of you to point it out.

The Folkworks smallpiper speaks of is part of the Sage Gateshead sitehere. At least it looks like the right place, but I can find nothing about the cds.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:17 PM

Sounds like a 'Get it from the Library and Bootleg it' job to me.And if any body does can they do me a copy,cos it sure as hell wont be in any Library in Hillingdon!

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:12 PM

This is frm another website about it:

Johnny Handle, who you may have heard of as a well-known (and very excellent) folk-singer and dialect researcher in the North East, has sent in this note on the project he is currently engaged on:

The Northumbria Anthology

"This project was set up in September 1999, using a Millennium/Lottery grant. The object is to build an archive of songs and recitations from the North East of England. The information is to be stored in two forms:
1. a website set up through Newcastle University.
2. a series of CDs featuring different kinds of artists, from classically trained performers to solo folksingers.
A series of five concerts presenting the material is planned to be held in July/September of this year at the Caedmon Hall, Gateshead, and the Kings Hall, Newcastle University. I was appointed as research officer to do this work, reporting to a committee drawn from the University, Tyne & Wear Museums and Archive services, Folkworks, Gateshead Libraries and Arts department, and Windows Music Shop; Brian Mawson, of this shop, had the original concept. He also donated the initial 10% towards the funding, and is using the Mawson and Wareham recording catalogue to assist in producing some of the material for the CDs. I have identified 20 zones in the Region from Berwick to Darlington and across to Brampton. Using books, manuscripts, broadsheets, and in some cases oral sources, I have assembled between 30 and 40 items for each zone. There is a strong dialect element in the material. Some of the older songs have to be edited, due to the use of obsolete words.
The first stage is nearing completion, which will be a pack of 20 zone CDs complete with a booklet of words and introductions. These will have 12-15 tracks to illustrate the type of material typical of the performers/composers in that area. They will be given (free) to all the libraries, colleges and universities in the North East. The website should be running from August. I will pass on the relevant details to those interested via this newsletter once we have more definite dates, together with some examples of the varied and interesting songs and poems."

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:04 PM

Kat, your link has nothing to do with this release.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:59 PM

1,000 copies. 500 to libraries. 500 from JG Windows. This is not a collection of folk music.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:57 PM

There is a discography here.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:53 PM

Newcastle Uni says they can be got at JG Windows on the Arcade in Newcastle. Apparently they just came out as that info was only posted on Dec. 12th. I checked the website for JG Windows and it is difficult to read. I clicked on what looked like the right link for CDs and got pop and rock.

Wish I could afford it, this sounds like a wonderful set.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:51 PM

A quick look around suggests that it isn't a commercial release. It's stuff from people like Sting and Bryan Ferry anyway.

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: smallpiper
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:42 PM

That should be Folkworks

Subject: RE: Northumbrian Anthology
From: smallpiper
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:37 PM

I suspect that Alister Anderson's Fol works will know something of it I believe they have a web site but will leave that up to the more tallenyed surfers to find

Subject: Northumbrian Anthology
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:28 PM

I found this on Bryan Ferry's Web site -- any Geordies (or anyone at all) out there who know where I can order it?

The Northumbria Anthology is a massive collection of recordings representing the musical heritage to be found between the Tweed and the Tees. A twenty CD boxed set containing around 300 songs will shortly be published with about 500 copies of the set being distributed free of charge to libraries throughout the North East.