BS: A New Generation's Vietnam

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:28 PM

"The mortified newsreader..."

As an American, you have no idea how this cheers me up.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 03:28 PM

Today's e-mail vox pop by CNN in Europe asked viewers "What country currently poses the greatest threat to world peace?".

The mortified newsreader had to announce that 70% of respondents replied "The US"! I've never heard the station give such a detailed explanation of how these vox pops are not official, not scientific etc. etc.

BTW, notwithstanding my respect for the BBC, I find it a little odd that they chose just last night to re-broadcast a film made years ago about Churchill's "wilderness years". Looks as if Auntie is being mobilised as well.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 03:13 PM

I recently saw a CD cover by a young, politicially oriented straight edge punk band called "Plan of Attack". The cover art is a photocopy of Kennedy being shot in Dallas, but with George W's face transposed over Kennedy's. Sort of summed up the sentiments I've been hearing from draft age males, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

Well, Saddam may be a lot of things, Amos, but he ain't stupid. He's preparing the Iraqis for war just as Bush is trying to prepare the folks here in the US and I'm sure Tony "Rubberstamp" Blair is doing in the UK.

Saddam is smart enough to know that if he can get his armies to fight and win soemsympathy from the civilians that he stands a good chance of perhaps loosing every battle but winning the war. Sure, alot of Americans don't remember Vietnam and many others are the blue-hairs and no-hairs you would like the US to have one more big victory before they move on to the next life. These folks aren't considering the fact nthat the US might just loose this war.

Now, I'm not predicting a loss, mind you, just pointing out that victory is not a given. Saddam will neutralize the strength of the US military if he can lure it into a street fight. I the is successful, the US will see massive casualties which will mount up like the Tet Offensive. It won't be one death here and one there but many, many kids getting shot up. If that occurs then the appitite for attacking folks is going to go away real, real fast.

The other choice is to just kill everyone in Bagdad with massave bombings, including bunker busting nuclear bombs. Hmmmmmm? Yeah, that ought to make thge US real popular.

The problem is that Bush has not given himself any out. He says that if Saddam says he has WMD, then he's gonna get invaded. Then he says that if Saddam denies having WMD, then he's gonna get invaded.

Nevermind, I know that this has been pointed out, but, hey....

Resist

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:07 PM

SOmetimes ya gotta wonder which century some people are living in. The following exhoretation was reported in the NY Times as having been offered by Saddam to his people concerning the prospect of war:

``We are confident ... that you will be with every dawn for a new day, better and better until you attain the best state ... to the disappointment of your desperate enemies, the friends and wicked assistants of Satan, the inhabitants of night and the dark,'' Saddam said. ``Their arrows will go astray while your arrows will hit them.''


Now, surely he knows his public, and he has demonstrated an energetic sense of public relations. Is he using this Old Testament style in order to sound like an ancient prophet? Or does he think the people hearing him will understand his reference to "arrows going astray" better than they would understand "the migration of NBC contaminants" or "cruise missiles with real time navigation capabilities".?

If I were a citizen of Saddam's Iraq I would not be comforted at the thought of using arrows, is all I can say! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:57 PM

Archbishop Tutu protested about the drift to war now, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:26 PM

As an American, I believe that the US public is being "softened up" (as the pundits seem to enjoy saying) for the prospect of a protracted war and/or occupation of Iraq. I don't think Bush will EVER just bomb Iraq and bring the troops home. The entire region the Bush administration is INVADING includes Afghanistan and Iraq, and both those countries were targeted for their location, location, location. The US is positioning itself militarily to take over the oil supplies in the region, and control not only the flow of oil, but to route the profits from it into the "right" pockets. That isn't the pockets of the House of Saud and the regime of Saddam Hussein, who the Bush administration views as the biggest obstacles to their being able to seize control of the world's oil supply.

I suppose some of you think the Venezualan "oil strike" is actually being waged by Venezualans too. The reason why the Bush administration doesn't give a rats ass about nukes in North Korea is they have no oil. Venezuela is the world's fifth largest oil producer. Afghanistan is key to controlling the Caspian Sea oil and the routes to get it out. Iraq is the world's second largest oil producer. Once the US has control of those three sources of oil, it can bring the House of Saud to it's knees, which has been the plan all along. Once they have control of enough oil, the Bush administration doesn't need the Saudis, and can cut them loose as an ally and put them in the "axis of evil" box, which is where they belong anyway. Except we still need their oil, so we can't put them there.

Bush and Cheney are both oil men. Their administration is all about controlling the world's oil, and pushing through their draconian agenda that guts civil liberties, and rolls the clock back 50 years on social services for the poor, the disabled, for women, for minorities, and for immigrants. They are about greed, oil, and are without doubt the most malevolent, evil government on the planet today, pure and simple. My government makes me deeply and profoundly ashamed to be American.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:53 AM

The Far Right claim to be mostly Christian and their goal has always been to take over positions of power starting from the lowliest of school board elections on up. They started with this agenda about thirty or so years ago and, now, have accomplished their goal, even taking over the White House. This has been well documented by various organisations.

Yes, I know the majority of Christians do not consider themselves part of such a movement. I would and have said to them that they need to be more vocal and active if they don't want to be lumped into such generalisations as we've seen. I say the same thing to Republicans (US) who seek to distance themselves from the Far Right.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:37 AM

But Saddam MUST be stopped, NOT appeased. If it takes a war, then that is very sad for those who will be victims of it. Or maybe we should have ignored Hitler...

DH:

Stopped from doing what? You will recall when he went for the Hitler-like territorial liebensraum shtick he was rapidly trimmed, clipped and herded back into line. But what is it that he is now doing that must be stopped by the United States? I really want to know the facts, and I can't get any from the White House.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:22 PM

Thank you, McGrath. That is what I was trying to say...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 07:26 PM

Well, the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury have indicated pretty clearly that they are dead against this proposed war, for a start. I'd hazard a guess you'd find a lot more Christians against it than for it all over the world. (Including Iraq which has quite a sizeable Christian minority, who get treated far far better than would be the case in "our" ally Saudi Arabia, for example, where there is active persecution.)

But there seems to be a bunch of people in the States who like to use the label without ever having listened to the message. And no doubt there are people like that elsewhere, but they don't get so much attention paid to them. And I rather assume that there's a whole lot of Christians in the Sates who don't in any way go along with them either.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:20 PM

Yo, GUEST. You a Jerry Falwell Christain? 'Cause if you are then there's no reason to take this conversation any further. You might want to reread my post for context. If after you have and you are still of the opinion that I am "offensively... wrong" given the context then you can just righteously shake Bobert's dust from your robe.

But before doing that, you might want to review some of my past posts where I have been a lone voice in speaking as a Follower of Christ, for their are many. Most of time I am just ignored but I have never hidden the fact that I am a Christain.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM

As a Christian, I have to tell you that you are wrong and offensively so. Unless you can illustrate how Christians are running some nefarious plot to undermine true Islam I think you'd best stick to making substantiable claims.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:02 PM

Why Saddam, Dead Horse. Did he win a lottery or something. Do you really think he is the only leader of a country in the world who has killed it's own people? There are too mnay to list. George Buish included where as a Texas governor he sat by with blinders on as cahnces are very very high that innocent people were put to death.

But Texas ain't nuthin' to countries, who are the US's supposed friends who practice murder on a daily basis of minorities and folks they just happen to dislike. Do a little research on Algeria and you'll find that the US is one the wrong side of a couple hundred thousand folks who have been killed because they practice the wrong religion...

So, why Saddam? No, this isn't just about oil. It's very much about Bush wanting to clear up his dad;s unfinished business. It's very much about diverting the attention of the American working class and voters from the more serious failures of the Bush administration.It's very much about Lockheed-Martin, which really owns and runs America. It's very much about a foriegn policy decision to *carry and big stick and use it regularially and often*. It's very much about the Bush administration being comprised of a bunch of retreads who want to get one more case of the jollies before they go to pasture. It's very much about the Christain Right (which is neither) who view Islam as a threat to Chistianity. And it's very much about violence and an administration that lacks the creativity and courage to cahnge the manner in which conflict is resoolved. And, it is about resources, darned right...

End of Bobert's mini-rant.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:52 PM

Maybe it's beating a dead horse to say it again, but I'll do so one more time. No evidence has been produced that convincingly indicates that Saddam Hussein presents any kind of danger to the rest of the world, or that the net effect on the people of Iraq of the proposed war will be beneficial, even for those who survive.

The fact that Saddam Hussein heads an evil regime notwithstanding, in the world of today he is not the most convincing Hitler figure.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:47 PM

Iraq may be a valid threat. It probably is. I don't know. I do know, however, that the Bush family has no idea what to do about it. Bomb them, instead.

Bush is sopposed to be a businessman. The authors of and business plan that fails utterly should be removed. Not reinstated.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Dead Horse
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM

I suggest the Voices in the Widerness and their like should all go to Iraq, as there is plenty enough sand for them all to bury their empty little heads in.
The lesson learned by our govts is that there can never be another Vietnam, because the public wont stand for a long drawn out war.
But Saddam MUST be stopped, NOT appeased. If it takes a war, then that is very sad for those who will be victims of it.
Or maybe we should have ignored Hitler, let him do what he liked within his own, ever increasing borders. So a few million jews were displaced & the feeble minded were neutered, none of OUR boys were hurt, eh?
I do, of course, use irony here!
But for Gods sake, do not assume that because war is evil, that bigger evils don't exist.
And do not over simplify by nodding wisely, saying "It's all because of oil, you know" It only shows your own stupidity.
End of angry tirade.
I'm going back to my *safe place* because I have one, millions don't.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:37 PM

McG,

With your last post, as usual, you've beaten me to the draw.

I just read an article in today's Irish Times about how the US supplied Iraq right up to the late 1990s not only with conventional weapons but also with chemical and biological warfare agents and precursors. Guess who was the US president's envoy to Saddam while he was using chemical weapons almost daily? Donald Rumsfeld!

But that was then and this is now.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:28 PM

I tend to believe that if it starts to look like there could be heavy US casualties, the US ground troops will be pulled back, and there'll be a really massive aerial bombardment, and Bush will declare victory and bring the US forces home.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: mg
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:03 PM

be kind to them if they come back. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:35 PM

McGrath:

It is not a given that tens upons thousands of US servcie men and women will not be killed. Should, the US be incorrect that the Iraqi people will rise up against Saddam, and the Iraqi armies pack into the population centers, there could very well be massave American casualties. And urban street fight, with the Iraqi army holed up and mixed in apartment buildings with civilians could present a nightmare from the perspective of military science. If that occurs, the US will loose this war either from just loosing the stomach for it as thousands of Amercian kids are killed or from the massive counter-reaction of a world watching nightly TV clips of Iraqi women and children dead.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

McGrath, as to your claim about the war not being fought by conscripts, please see the thread I started titled "American Send us Your Sons". The news may not have reached you yet, but the Congressional Black Caucus has announced it's intention to introduce legislation to reinstitute the draft next week.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:50 PM

The difference from Vietnam is that this time there won't be tens of thousands of Americans killed, and the ones that do get killed won't be conscripts. The assumption being that this will mean that the American public won't be too bothered about about what is being done in their name.

A questionable assumption? Let's see.

Over here in the UK, if Blair gets us into it, and it continues for any length of time, I think the level of opposition to it is going to be a lot bigger than Vietnam ever was. At least that time we weren't directly involved.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:51 AM

Happy New Year Bobert! You might want to bookmark the Common Dreams Newswire and AlterNet home pages for great news--and real news, not like the Washington Post!

AlterNet is here:

www.alternet.org

And here is a snippet from their Mission page:

Our Mission

The AlterNet Mission

AlterNet.org is an online magazine and information resource where pressing issues are subject to examination and debate.

By providing quality journalism, dependable research, issue-focused public interest content and passionate advocacy, we believe our readers will be better equipped to make informed decisions about problems that affect us all.

Overall, we seek to engage our community of readers in problem solving, community action and awareness of current events in the United States and abroad.

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Millions of people, despite leading busy lives, are concerned about the direction of our country and its policies. We are hungry for the trustworthy, stimulating and value-driven information we need to create change. Good policies, and especially good changes to bad policies, require mobilizing concerned citizens.

The media marketplace is increasingly dominated by commercial messages, or focused on entertainment at the expense of insightful information. The results of this trend are large gaps in news coverage and diminished public confidence in the media. Although thousands of issue-oriented websites offer outstanding public interest content, too many remain hidden to experienced researchers and casual Internet users.

Without qualified editors to evaluate material and make it easier for users to find and act upon it, the public interest information people want and need will continue to be marginalized.

The Solution We Propose: The Infomediary

At AlterNet.org, we are doing something about information overload and corporate media irresponsibility. Our website is designed to serve as your "online helper," leading individuals, policy professionals and journalists alike to sources for information and insight. There is a word for this role. It is an "infomediary."

Average people need an infomediary to help them sort through the mass of information. Activists need an infomediary to lead them quickly to collegial efforts and relevant data. Public interest websites need an infomediary to steer like-minded people to their content.

The infomediary finds, evaluates, aggregates and organizes links to the best journalism, policy analysis and websites on a range of pressing issues, from globalization and grassroots organizing, to the war on drugs and genetic engineering.

Common Dreams Newswire is here:

http://www.commondreams.org/

They too republish news stories from other sources. Both are somewhat like online Utne Reader type sites. Of the two, Common Dreams has the most extensive links to progressive periodicals, journals, etc. as well as conventional news sources (like their links section to US television stations and news and public affairs programming websites.

One of my New Years resolutions is not even bother with my former daily fixes at the Post and Boston Globe. I've got these two bookmarked as my main news pages now. Very high quality journalism from a progressive perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:18 AM

This is even worse than Vietnam, GUEST, because the lessons of Vietnam should be fresh in our memories and the scars not yet healed.

Now we know why this administration pulled out of supporting a World Court. It is about to commit murder!

Yes, murder! Just so Junior's boy can get their jollies and steal a little oil on the side.

Yes I will be participating in in the Feb. demonstration as well as the ones coming up on Jan. 18th.

These madmen must be held accountable!

Resist!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM

From the Common Dreams website:

10,000,000 March to Stop War
Published on Friday, January 3, 2003 by the Mirror/UK

by Gary Jones

TEN million people are expected to join a worldwide protest next month against war on Iraq.

Peace activists are organizing marches across Europe, America and the Middle East in what could be the biggest demo ever staged.

The day of action is planned for Saturday, February 15, and is described by campaigners as "the last chance to stop the war".

The day of action was unveiled as President Bush reaffirmed his determination to invade Iraq.

You can read the rest of the article here:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0103-07.htm

Subject: BS: A New Generation's Vietnam
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:51 AM

By David Hilfiker, Pacific News Service
January 2, 2003

I have just returned home from a three-week trip to Iraq organized by the peace group Voices in the Wilderness. I toured the country's cities, suburbs and rural areas, meeting everyone from housewives to teachers to government officials. I feel now as I felt a generation ago during the Vietnam War: We are destroying an innocent people in the name of geopolitical "realities" that, ultimately, make no sense.


President Bush says that the danger to the United States of "weapons of mass destruction" justifies the devastation caused by a 12-year American-led campaign of bombing and sanctions. The idea would be laughable if it were not taken so seriously by so many in America. Iraq was a third-rate military power before the first Gulf War and the sanctions. The former U.S. Marine heading the previous U.N. inspection teams says 90 to 95 percent of Saddam Hussein's remaining weapons of mass destruction were found and destroyed. Almost no one thinks Iraq possesses nuclear weapons or the capability to get a missile anywhere near the United States. Aside from Great Britain and Israel, virtually no other country perceives Iraq to be a danger worth the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

The remainder of this article may be found online at:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14872

It gives a very interesting account of this journalist's recent visit to Iraq. As the Bush administration and the US mainstream media increases the volume and intensity of the war drums, eyewitness articles like this become increasingly important to our understanding of what is truly at stake for us, for the people of the region, and for the world.