BS: Which law do we follow?

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

We each do what our own best judgement and understanding tell us to do in each particular situation...which is infinitely variable. Therefore, no one can write down a simple set of instructions which will work every time. Civil and religious laws are an attempt to do just that, and that is why laws are sometimes inapplicable or downright wrong in a certain situation. We all have had some experience of observing that, I believe. Laws are primarily for people who are so unconscious of the basic human responsibilities of life...or so weak...that they need someone else to tell them what to do, as if they were robots...and punish them when they don't do it. Laws are virtually unnecessary in a community of strong, emotionally mature people...who need not laws, but just general (and flexible) guidelines, understood and agreed upon by all members.

I can tell you plainly that, although not perfect, I am essentially harmless and essentially helpful. I would likewise be so in a place which had NO laws, I can assure you. So would most of the people I presently know (but not ALL of them!).

Anyone's cultural background will strongly affect his judgement and understanding of a given situation. The way his parents brought him up will do the same.

If someone says "follow the law of Allah", I must point out that there are numerous Muslim sects who all claim to do that, and yet they frequently disagree with each other regarding certain points of that law and how to apply it.

This is equally true of Christians, Buddhists, etc. They are not united in their understanding of their own written "law" or in how they practice it.

In the end, everyone must decide whose judgement and interpretation to rely on...his own or someone else's. I would suggest that adult people who rely on someone else's judgement are usually:

1. surrendering responsibility

2. disempowering themselves

3. failing not only themselves, but also the God who gave them free will (*that is, if you believe in God...if you don't, then just disregard that last part, since it makes no sense in your definition of reality)

4. often contributing to a great evil

The Nazi soldiers (and many other soldiers) who repeatedly followed grossly inhumane orders were generally obeying the military and civil laws of their society at the time in so doing. Many of them did it, despite being dimly or even bitterly and keenly aware that they were doing wrong. Many became alcoholic and depressed as a result, and some few even killed themselves to escape the pain. Others became brutalized and gave in entirely to the legal evil imposed upon them and learned to relish it.

If you cannot rely on your own conscience to distinguish right from wrong...then what can you rely on? Civil law? No! Civil law is a temporary construct, it is not infallible, and a mature and aware person copes with it as best he can (because he must), while seeing far, far beyond it.

As for religious law, the wise can spend a whole lifetime studying it, and still find deeper meaning and more powerful love in it, while the unwise and literal-minded can use it to justify the most horrendous blindness, cruelty, vengefulness, and atrocity.

Thus everyone, in the end, follows the law...of his own individual judgement and tendencies (good or bad). If his judgement is REALLY bad, he simply hands it over entirely to someone else's judgement...someone with a stronger sense of identity than his own.

If so, let's hope that someone else knows what in the world he is doing, and that he is doing something in favour of life rather than against it! Evil is that which is opposed to Life and liveliness. Good is that which promotes Life and liveliness.

Be careful of people who use a death's head insignia, talk about "kicking ass" all the time, and design stealth bombers that look like something Darth Vader would have ordered from the weapons supply section of the Imperial Command.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

Dave O, thanks for the comment on Islam. It is not monolithic.
Most Muslim people according to some reports live under democratic governments and adhere to their laws.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:58 AM

These are tricky questions.
Most Muslim countries are very intolerant of decent.
I wonder what would happen in Saudi Arabia if you tried to set up a body called the "Christian Parliament"?
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:57 AM

Interesting turn of events. The security guard, while still not making physical contact, is now more open and friendly! Whether someone has had a word or whether it was some initial shyness he now seems to have overcome his problem with communicating with women.

He mentioned that he was going to Salford university and was having difficulty getting from his security job to there by 9:15. Elaine explained that he did not need to stay till 9:00 as she could take over reception at 8:45. When she also told him he could get a train direct from Deansgate station (5 mins from work) to Salford (5 mins from the university) he was realy pleased.

Just shows - First impressions can be overcome and a little bit mutual respect can work wonders!

Cheers and thanks again for the help with this difficult question.

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:26 AM

I forgot another case: A Muslim who demanded when being in court that no woman should be among the judges. Denied of course.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:08 AM

It is a very interesting question. And I'm afraid it has never a convincing answer for all cases.

Nobody I think would extend tolerance to religions (or local faiths) that demand human sacrifices like for instance widow burning. But in between there are so many difficult cases. Some instances from Germany:

Muslim women who demanded that their faces were not photographed for passports (except for an eye slit). Denied by courts
Teachers who demanded that they could show their religion by their choice of head cover (Sikhs, but not only them). Denied by courts
Muslims who demand that their method of slaughtering animals which is in violation of German animal protection laws should be allowed. Granted by courts with the restriction that the animals have to be anaesthetised. Not accepted by (some) Muslims who claim that they have to kill the animals with them feeling the full pain. Still pending.

Some restrictions seem to be plainly silly. For several years, the rules in Olympic gymnastics made some prescription on what to wear (and hairlength, I think). Sikhs could compete but had to suffer a deduction of points for the way they looked. Silly.

Less silly would be the same decision in professional boxing or in other sports that demand a certain type of head cover (cycling, ski racing, motor racing).

I'd say in those cases the person should choose another sport or profession.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 05:15 AM

As mentioned already, some orthodox jews will not touch a strange woman. I believe that the reason for this is that a woman (including a wife) is considered unclean while she is menstruating and it is taboo to touch her. As a jew would not know what part of her cycle a woman was at, he would have to act on the safe side. He would be quite happy to touch his wife (except during her period) or any female who was obviously outside child-bearing age.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:05 PM

Two comments, both of which have been slightly touched on above, but I want to say them my way:

Islam is far from a monolithic religion. There are MANY traditions, MANY readings of the Koran, and I suppose the adherents of each view would say, without thinking, "This is the way Islam is," referring to their own interpretation. What's more, there is no one culture necessarily associated with Islam. The culture one would find among Muslims in Indonesia would be QUITE different from that found in Iran or Morocco, say. The cultural practices and scriptural interpretation one has grown up with tend to be taken for granted as being bedrock religious imperatives.

It's not clear to me from the description just what this young man is doing that would be seen as interfering with the work of the organization(s). His attitude in itself is irrelevant, and not shaking hands is hardly an attack on the organization's function. If he won't execute orders given by a female superior, or won't make reports to females when required, or as a security guard won't question a suspious female, those (in)actions would certainly be objective reasons for dismissal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

Thanks for the input all - I think I have come to the conclusion that I will tollerate his beliefs and/or culture but still view him as an very rude person. There are such people in all cultures so it does reconcile my views.

I guess the answer is I will tollerate any religion or culture but not an interpretation or aspect of it that causes hurt or offense to someone else. Sound OK?

I didn't sleep well last night but now my mind is made up I guess tonight will be a different story:-)

And I guess the only answer to my first question is that the only real law to follow is that of your concience!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:56 PM

I have no credentials to speak on British or Canadian law but earlier today I had the chance to speak to some one who does: an ex-shop steward from Manchester. He tells me that as recently as 2 years ago the man could have been fired for refusing to meet the requirements of the job. The union would fight it but would almost certainly lose.

To answer the question in more detail, the man is either a guest in a country that has different customs than his or he is a native who has chosen to adhere to standards he knows many would find offensive. Either way, he has shown poor judgment in his choice of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 08:06 PM

Sounds like he's employed by a Security firm. Perhaps suggest to them that a firm where all the top management are female might not be the best place for someone like him. There must be plenty of factories with an overwhelmingly male workplace where he'd feel happier.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 08:00 PM

A Sikh turban is probably as good head protection as any helmet.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:59 PM

I have heard of this attitude among some very strict Muslims and also Orthodox Jews. Personally if I were an employer I wouldn't tolerate it and I would fire that security guard if I could legally get away with it. With all due respect, such attitutes are from the Dark Ages. Yes, people are free to have their beliefs and practice their religion but in this case it interferes with his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM

as I read it the question posed was 'WHich law do we follow?'
not what Daves or our reaction should be. It seems to me that if he is unable to do the work as he should he should not work there.

the question arises often: in canada the requirement to wear a helmet on a motorcycle the law conflicted with the some cultures rights to wear a turban. In the end the turban won out. (Which also applied to headgear for police officers - and now you may encounter police officers with turbans, or long braids (First Nation style).

this issue also came up when a Cab drivers convention wanted to rent a hall (a Legion hall) and were told they had to remove their headgear (as the Legion members are required out of tradition and respect for fallen comrades to remove their headgear when they enter
a hall) which ones religion takes precedence?

But there are other times where it is unclear, namely if ones
religion requires one to carry a weapon. (which may conflict with
local laws, ie. carrying weapons aboard an airplane, or into a courtroom). The Sikh religion requires that members wear a turban,
and carry a sword (among other things). I believe now the sword
is usually a small ceremonial sword - but not sure of the size or
effectiveness. In a BC court case a few years ago, the 'sword' fact came up and the Judge in the case mentioned that he hoped that no one is armed in the courtroom - as it is illegal to carry weapons into court.
(a few people in the courtroom got upset over it and cried racism).

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:50 PM

I'm trying to think whether I ever shook hands with any colleagues in the course of my work, and I honestly can't say I ever did. Not generally anyway - not part of my culture, or that of my colleahges, so far as I could see.

As for preferring to ask questions of people of the same sex, that sees pretty common too, where strangers are concerned, for example in in shops.

I'd suspect that's what invoved here is more culture than religion, though of course the two overlap. If you say "it's against my religion" that is quite a good way of getting people to back off from trying to get you to change your ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:49 PM

There are grounds to dismiss in that he is discriminating against females, and is not performing his duties.

If thisis a contract gaurd, then his contractual company is in breach of contract. If he is employed and been there less than One year then dismiss as not willing to perfom his duties.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:36 PM

Perhaps there aren't leaders in our sense but they do have spokesmen who deal with or speak out on problems. Certainly they do here (western Canada city).

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM

Dave, you are correct. "Islam" is the religion, practitioners are known as "Muslim(s)."

However, western media likes to use the word Islam in a derogatory fashion, and the word Muslim (as individuals) more tolerantly. Neither term has anything to do with fundamentalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:26 PM

One of the things that can make Islam a social problem is that there ARE no church leaders in the western sense. Until one pisses off some qadi enough to attract a fatal fatwa, the individual Muslim is free to be the supreme authority in his church if he chooses. Except for the Ayatollahs, all religious authority in Islam is by acclamation, more or less.

What I'm trying to say is, the little prick may be unique in his community.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:22 PM

It's a fascinating problem. I believe that the young man might be doing something illegal. (Discrimination against women). Therefore, I think that he must accept the consequences of his belief. He is entitled to have it and is also entitled to be sued, arrested and incarcerated if found guilty in a court of law.

One thing, it violates the separation of Church and State IMHO.

I believe in following one's conscience if it leads a person to a violation of the law but then that person must accept the consequences. Dr. King and many others have gone to jail over what they believe. Why should this man be any different?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Burke
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:14 PM

My cousin converted to Islam a few years ago. I only see her occasionally. At my grandmother's funeral she refused to shake hands with several unrelated men saying that she was not allowed to based on her religion. Up until then I'd only seen her with her dad & mine. Since she's related to them touching was allowed & I did not notice any particular restraint.

Not being willing to shake hands or greet someone hardly seems to rise to an issue of legality. By our standards it seems rude but little more. If he's not doing his job, that's different & needs to be addressed by the employer & 'reasonable accomodation' worked out if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:40 PM

Hmmm, you ask about religion and want objective comments. No can do, I'm afraid

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM

Hey - I learned something from Mudcat yet again! I really did not know that Muslim and Islam were not interchangeable - I thought that Islam was the religion and Muslims were followers of that faith. Guess I am wrong again! What is the correct usage?

BTW my Dad (Son of a Russian Orthodox priest from Poland) always refers to the followers of Mohamed as Mohamedans. Is that yet another religion or incorrect term or something else?

You were not exactly wrong in your assumptions though, Guest. Although I was not realy asking how I should react to the security guard neither was I wondering how to respond to my wifes comments. It is more a predicament I find myself in. I want to be tolerant of all religions but I would find it difficult to tollerate the type of fundementalism that would not allow contact with another human being. I am therefore trying to find either excuses for his behaviour or a way to reconcile the disparate feelings I have.

Anyhow - Off to bed now. Enough work for the little grey cells for one day!

Looking forward to any more objective comments tomorrow.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:29 PM

Oops! Sorry, the above sentence should read "So, is the issue that this man appears to be an Islamic fundamentalist..."

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:15 PM

"Why would I need to work at the same place to have any feelings towards how my wife is being treated though? Surprisingly we do talk to each other occasionaly;-) "

Sorry Dave, I guess I misundersood what you were asking. You first asked "how should I react" and I assumed that meant react to the security guard. Based upon your response to mine, it looks like you meant "how should I react to my wife's complaints about the way she is being treated".

BTW, Islam and Muslim religion aren't really interchangeable in usage. If the security guard is saying that the Muslim religion doesn't allow him to have contact with women in the workplace, that is just plain wrong. So, is the issue that this man appears to be a fundamentalist, who makes claims about the Muslim religion based upon his social conservatism and fundamentalist beliefs? Is this the beast we are talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM

I do not work at the same place but I drop her off at the front door every morning and watch as she goes through the ritual of non communication! Why would I need to work at the same place to have any feelings towards how my wife is being treated though? Surprisingly we do talk to each other occasionaly;-)

Neither did I assume it to be a required religious practice. He actualy said his religion did not allow him to greet women. If he had said his culture did not allow him to greet women or his sexual preferences did not allow him to greet women I would not have mentioned religion at all. But he did say religion. Perhaps his terminology was wrong but until I know better I can only assume, as I would of all others, that he was telling the truth.

However. I have just learned something interesting from Elaine while driving back from her mothers. The guy is getting married next week. I do not know enough about Islam to answer but is it possible that there is a period before the marriage where he may not be allowed to touch women? Anyone in the know?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

Religious tolerance goes both ways. While it is true that Islam does NOT require or condone that behavior, he believes it does, ergo, it is his religious belief. That does not excuse his intolerant behavior of your wife, since she deserves the same respect he wishes to be accorded.

Rather, he seems to have an issue with women in authority, since he is doing the requirements of his job (i.e. answering questions) when it comes to other women.

Obviously, this is a dilemma for the HR department at the company, but if he were my direct employee, I would make it clear to him that his satisfactory performance of his job, and therefore continued employment, requires that he follow appropriate procedures including the chain of command and showing respect to his supervisors of any gender. Under US law, one only need to provide "reasonable accomodation" -- changing the management structure of the company to cater to one individual would not normally be considered a reasonable accomodation. The concept of reasonable accomodation, however, might require switching him to a department or shift where he reports to a man instead (if available). Which I think is plain silly, but there it is.

Oftimes, problems with employees like this can be solved if it's approached in an even-handed manner. I would suggest that your wife try not to get personally involved, but refer the problem directly to HR since it's a murky religious/gender issue, and legal issues may come up.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM

His attitude is not typical. Several young Muslims (from Pakistan and India) worked in a laboratory that I consulted with. One, a chemist, was a young woman. The only time I found a difference was when we sent out for pizza when we were rushed. The Muslims asked for vegetarian pizza.
At University, there were a number of Muslims (Texas, they came to be educated in petroleum sciences and to make contacts.
There were no problems, sometimes a bit of joking about differences. For a university parade, four Iraqis set up a harem float, got the harem outfits (only midriffs and arms bare), and persuaded the girls from one of the sororities to ride as harem girls, while the boys dressed in their idea of desert finery.

These young men and women were from an educated stratum- we never met the ultra-conservative fundamentalist type that make up the Taliban, etc.

Suggestion- see if one of the Muslim church leaders can be persuaded to talk with the young man. If that doesn't work, he should be fired; his attitude will interfere with the work of the unit.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:30 PM

Dave, do you and your wife work in the same place, and do you have regular interactions with this security guard as part of your job? If not, I guess I'm at a loss as to why you would ask "how should I react"? If you don't work there, why wouldn't you just ignore him?

As to "the same laws protecting the equality of both faith and sex" again, I would not presume to say what the laws are in the UK, but in the US, the employment laws governing the accomodation of a person's religion in the workplace are not the same laws regarding discimination based upon gender. Regarding the accomodation of religious beliefs in the workplace, this would include the worker being allowed to take their religious holidays off without being penalized, or a space being given to them to pray (as Muslims are required to) during their call to prayer time. Since most Muslims believe men and women to be equal in the same ways their Christian and Jewish colleagues do, I find it odd to suggest that discrimination against women is something you assume to be a required religious practice, rather than a cultural prejudice. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM

discrimination of the sort that the Muslim security guard is alleged to be engaging in

No 'alleged' at all. This is happening. In an American company, albeit in the UK. The security company is British. Remember it is the same laws protecting the equality of both faith and sex - there is the issue.

But I am not sure you have got my point realy. My question is not about legalities or employment law or religion. It is about how I address my own dilema of how I handle it. I feel quite offended that this man will not treat my wife as an equal. Yet, whether this is typical behaviour or not, I do respect his views as well. How should I react?

Hope I have made it clearer.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM

It is a specious argument, I think. While I have no knowledge of UK employment law, I do know that discrimination of the sort that the Muslim security guard is alleged to be engaging in, would cause him to lose his job in the US. I live in a community with a fairly large Muslim population, and can tell you that the guy must have some serious mental problems, not rigid cultural or religious beliefs, and my workplace has 3 Muslim male workers, and 2 female Muslim workers.

I have never heard of such a ludicrous thing happening in my years of working with Muslim men. Anyone who accepts a position for employment must be able and willing to fulfill all the duties of the position, or they won't get hired. If hired, and they refuse to perform the duties for which they were hired, they are fired. Since very few Muslim American men would ever attempt to make such a ludicrous suggestion about female colleagues, I can't imagine it ever being an issue in the workplace.

The Muslim men I have worked with have all been very respectful of women. In general (and probably because of the scrutiny they face in the post 9/11 workforce), I find them to be much more respectful of women than their European American colleagues, who often treat female colleagues, subordinates, clients, etc. with a fair amount of disrespect, contempt. and disdain. And frequently get away with it, because their fellow male colleagues turn a blind eye to it, or are complicit in the behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:51 PM

The law of Allah

Subject: BS: Which law do we follow?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM

Mrs G. has posed an interesting question. She works for a large American company in the UK. They employ a third party to supply a security guard.

The latest security guard is a young man of the Islamic faith. Elaine (Mrs G of course) as Location administrator looks after reception, switchboard, post, security etc. and needs to work closely with the young man as they need to 'hand over' from security to reception and vice-versca.

However when she introduced herself and offered a handshake he would not accept and told her his religion would not allow him to greet women. All the top management of the site where she works are women but he would not shake the hand of any of them. Nor will he speak to any of the women except to answer specific questions with as little intercourse (no puns please!) as possible. If he needs to ask a question he will find a male member of staff and ask them.

The question is of course where does the law of the land, which says that both sexes must be treated equaly and the law of the company, which says everyone must be treated with equal courtesy, give way to the law of a specific religion?

I am not in all honesty trying to condemn or condone anything. I admire the young man for standing by his principles yet I also abhor his attitude to half the population of the world. It is a genuine paradox for me. How can I justify and condemn his attitude at the same time?

Do we go for complete tollerence of all beliefs? Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Budhist, Pagan, Satanist, whatever? Where do we draw the line? Followers of Charles Manson?

Do we go for no tollerance? Sorry - The law of the land is the law of the land! No exeptions? No alcohol? No break from the work place for daily prayer?

Where is the happy medium? I only wish I knew.

Ah well. We may not have all the answers but surely we can write a song about it;-)

Good luck. I don't intend to loose too much sleep myself but I wait with tollerant anticipation...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome