Tune Add: What are these tunes?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 09:41 AM

She got it from Andy Irvine; via Johnny Moynihan, I think, who accompanied her on her recording of it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 07:53 AM

I seem to have a distant memory of Anne Briggs singing Wille o Winsbury to the Fause Foodrage tune given above. She would possibly have got it from Bert Lloyd.
Of course I could be completely mistaken as I am at work ( lunchtime ! ) and the record I have is at home.....

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: belfast
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 07:07 AM

Thank you, Malcolm. As precise and informative as ever. I just wonder how the hell you got to know so much stuff!

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 05:55 PM

The set of Fause Foodrage in question (Child 89C) came from the Harris MS (No. 18, fol. 22). Mrs Amelia Harris learned it at around the age of 8 from her nurse, Jannie Scott, in Perthshire, c.1790. Her daughter wrote down her mother's texts and some tunes; when Child wrote, the manuscript was in the possession of Harvard College Library. She had only four verses. Her set is in the DT, taken from a record made by Hermes Nye, who for unknown reasons of his own called it neither by Child's group title nor the one usually given it, Eastmuir King, but instead re-named it  King o' Luve.

The tune appears in Child V, p.416; there is a tune for Willie o Winsbury on page 418, which is presumably the one Andy Irvine intended to copy. Sadly, the error has resulted in a lot of people believing that the song, as recorded by Sweeney's Men, is Irish; it isn't. It is Scottish, as is the text they used, which -so far as I can recall- is mainly Child's version A. Other versions of the ballad have been found in Ireland, of course, as also in England, the USA and Canada.

I have no idea at all where Archie Fisher comes in. Bronson comments that " the Harris tune is of the Æ / D plagal variety, and belongs to a type which is found with several other Scottish ballads; Hind Etin (No. 41), Child Waters (No. 63), Child Maurice (No. 83), Young Johnstone (No. 88), Jellon Grame (No. 90), Sir James the Rose (No. 213)."

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: belfast
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:59 PM

Good. Another of life's little mysteries solved. When I first learned this tune I accompanied it is Em. When I heard Archie Fisher (and I've just recalled that it was a programme about the area where there the Tam Lin story is said to have taken place)I noticed that, although the tune ends in E and has one sharp, he ended with a C chord. And I started using somewhat idiosyncratic chords myself. I could be talking total nonsense here.

But what about that "Battle of Otterbourne" tune? Has anyone got a source for that?

"Fause Foodrage". It's not in the Digitrad. I know it's in the Child Ballad site (89) but it takes about three hours to download. Slight exaggeration.

Oh, and thanks.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM

Thanks Malcolm. Do you know where Archie Fisher fits into this story?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

Andy was in Sweeney's Men in '66 (i.e. five years before this record was made), and had been active before that, so, yes, it is certainly possible.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

The tune Andy Irvine accidentally set to Willie of Winsbury actually belongs to Fause Foodrage. It's on the previous page from a genuine Winsbury tune in the tunes appendix of Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads; presumably Andy didn't notice that the page had flipped over when he went to copy it down. It's easily done.

There is no evidence that the Foodrage tune was ever used for Winsbury prior to that. If Barbara used that tune, then it came from Andy originally, at whatever remove.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: belfast
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM

Is it possible that Barbara Dickson got her version from Andy Irvine?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:21 PM

... sorry, I should have added that her notes say the arrangement was by Archie Fisher and recorded October 1971.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM

Barbara Dickson sang the Willy O' Winsbury tune ("Lord Thomas of Winesbury and the King's Daughter") on "From the Beggar's Mantle Fringed with Gold", SKL 5116, issued in 1972.

Subject: Tune Add: What are these tunes?
From: belfast
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:10 PM

There was a thread about the Molly Maguires and I was about to make a posting stating that the melody for the song was "The Battle of Otterburn". I decided to check the Digitrad. Neither of the two melodies given there for "The Battle of Otterburn" is the same as the one in my head. I can't remember where or when I picked up this melody. Any ideas?

Willy O'Winsbury. I got this melody from a guy who got it from a guy who got it etc.…from Andy Irvine. So I have no idea whether it still resembles what Andy does. I do know that Andy, inadvertently or otherwise, put the "wrong" tune to the words. I have a vague recollection of Archie Fisher singing a version of Tam Lin with this melody. Again, any ideas about the source?

X:9
T: The Battle of Otterburn/ Molly Maguires
M4/4
Q:120
K:G
B,/C/|"G"DDDG|"C"EC"D"B,A,|"G"G,3D|
GGGA/B/|"C"cc"G"BB/A/|GG/E/DB,|"D"A,3D|
"G"GGGA/B/|"C"cd/c/"G"BB/A/|GG/E/DB,|"D"A,3B,/C/|
"G"DDDG|"C"EC"D"B,A,|"G"G,3


X:10
T:Willy O' Winsbury
M:4/4
Q:1/4=100
K:G
D|"C"E3F|G3A|"G"B2B2|"D"A2GF|
"C"E2GB|"D"A2GF|"C"E3z|z3D|
G2F2|E2D2|"G"B,2D2|B,3A,|
G,2G,2|"Bm"B,2D2|"C"E3