BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:45 PM

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

That's what is really worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Nemesis
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:26 PM

Hey, Troll .. a little general knowledge quiz for you

1. Which is the only Western state refusing to sign an international treaty limiting the development of biological weapons?

2. Which country has the largest biological weapons research programme in the World?

3. Which country has more biological weapons than any other?

4. Which is the only Western state which refuses to sign up to an International Court designed to try powerful people for crimes against humanity?

5. Which country has more nuclear weapons than any other?

6. Which country in the World has more weapons of mass destruction than any other in the world?

7. Which is the only country in world history to have actually used weapons of mass destruction.

8. Which nation state has committed more corroborated incidence of direct involvement in the affairs of other nation states than any other?

9. Which nation state owes more money in back membership fees to the United Nations than any other?

Answers:
1. USA 2. USA 3.USA 4. USA 5. USA 6. USA 7. USA 8. USA 9. USA

Source: www.squall.co.uk

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:58 AM

Just perhaps as a devil's advocate, there might be a grain of truth in this article, however clumsily it was handled.

The author is asserting that nations prosper to the degree they interact well with other groups of people on the planet -- that dialogue, free flow of ideation and trade and viewpoints are an index of well-being.

I happen to believe there's a meaningful degree of truth in that thesis. It is unfortunate that the author tries to cast it in the context of American imperialism, which is a piss-poor rider to tag onto what is essentially a noble proposition -- that humans prosper when they are in open communication with other humans, and they do not prosper when they seek isolationism and autocratic insulation.

At the core, this is about ideas which will survive and ideas which will not. Strong ideas, those which align well with human realities, laws of nature, and whatever laws of metaphysics there are, stand up well in dialogue, tend to be infectious and survive noise-bombs.

Right now, one of the strongest ideas ever promulgated -- that the source of states lies in the informed individual acting freely -- is under a tremendous cloud of noise-bomb attack.

But that doesn't make it any the less a true and robust idea.

I believe it will survive. And I like the idea that we should "shrink the gap" of those who are missing out on the conversation. But I am thinking of a free conversation, not a manipulative power-grid of influential operations. Open communication, si -- Yanqui imperalism, no!

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Nemesis
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM

Oh, thank 'ee Richard :) !

Hille
xx

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: mooman
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM

Dear Hille,

I think you have just about hit the nail on the head!

Best regards,

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 05:28 AM

It seems to me the writer once travelled by train and thought "Mind The Gap" was a statement of international importance!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: mack/misophist
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:06 AM

This is an ad hominem statement but I'll make it anyway. Mr Barnett, the author, looks like he spends more time teasing his hair than doing research. Natürlich hat Little Hawk leider recht.

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:40 AM

Bobert: thanks to what Bush, Blair and the coalition of the willing countries are probably going to do, your kids may HAVE a future.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:03 AM

Dr. Mark, I found that to be a good read, too.

Welcome back, LH! That is one of the best descriptions I've read which fit the shrub to a "t:" immature, overstuffed, spoiled brat with attention deficit disorder and not much dignity or character to boot

How about a new bumper sticker...Get the Brat out of the White House!

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:13 PM

"FOR MOST COUNTRIES, accommodating the emerging global rule set of democracy, transparency, and free trade is no mean feat, which is something most Americans find hard to understand. We tend to forget just how hard it has been to keep the United States together all these years, harmonizing our own, competing internal rule sets along the way—through a Civil War, a Great Depression, and the long struggles for racial and sexual equality that continue to this day. As far as most states are concerned, we are quite unrealistic in our expectation that they should adapt themselves quickly to globalization's very American-looking rule set."

I got this far with the article.... America has only had free trade a couple of times in our history and the rest of the time we've been crippled by tarrifs, duties, taxes, etc. America isn't spreading freedom and self-governance. Maybe the guy clears up his mis-statement later on, but 'globalization's rule set' is strong-man, dictatorial rule. It's only being marketed as 'American-looking' because of the fallacy that America is the 'Land of the Free'. What crap.

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:54 PM

I just re-read Caleb Carr's future fantasy, "Killing Time". Worth a read, not so much for the gee-whiz unscientific science fiction, but for the chilling description of a post-economic-crash world where the "developed" countries can't afford even token attempts at environmental protection, towns in Southern California are warring with one another over water, and wars are stoked around the world to help keep the corporate coffers filled.

Remember in 1974 when the urban wasteland in the movie version of "A Clockwork Orange" seemed impossibly grotesque? And now it's everywhere.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:24 PM

Bruce:

I'm with you on this one. At the rate that Bush's America is spending, our kids and theirs will get stuck with their bills. Wish it were like that fir me. Yeah, there's lots of stuff I'd like to have but can't afford but then if I could just charge it and leave it to others to pay for it later then....

Nah, that ain't me!

But it certainly is a lot of the born-with-a-silver-spoon-in-their-mouths. These folks can't consume enough.

I think it's a toilet training issue. Er' maybe a breast feeding issue. Danged, I don't have a clue waht makes Bush and his friend so screwed up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:56 PM

Right on Little Hawk!

The United States of America, the inhabitants of which comprise roughly 4% of the world's total population, consumes 40% of the worlds total resources. So let's get the rest of those folks off of their asses and get 'em consuming at the same rate, dammit! Let's just pretend we're college kids at a keg party and see just how fast we can drink it all up.

We need to be learning lessons in how to live responsibly from those "gap" countries instead of converting them to our irresponsible lifestyle.


"We have not inherited the earth from our fathers. We are borrowing it from our children".

I only hope there's going to be something left to give them when the payment comes due.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

Yeah. LH, and there is an interesting overview of this area of what we now call the United States. The areas where the Native Americans farmed along the Mississippi River were taken over by the Europeans and farmed as plantations and today this same area won't grow nuthin' and the people living there are the descendents of slaves and living in poverty. Think God has weighed in on this region? Way too much bad Karma!

Yep, the Lousiana Purchase is lookin' more and more like a lemon!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:16 PM

Interesting theory...

So, people who don't (or seemingly can't) buy into the philosophy that all that really matters in life is making a hell of a lot of money and producing, buying, and selling a hell of a lot of consumer goods and high tech weapons must be bombed into submission until they see it our way, eh?

Funny. I've seen people living in "the Gap" in Cuba, Trinidad (to a lesser extent), and various other places, and you know what? They make North Americans (in a somewhat generalized sense, you understand) look like immature, overstuffed, spoiled brats with attention deficit disorder and not much dignity or character to boot.

I hope "the Gap" swallows this guy's over-consumptive civilization, which is a monster that is devouring the planet, just like it once devoured a pristine American continent where some very fine and free people lived without benefit of a consumer economy.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:56 PM

Let me get this right? We're gonna kill Saddam and a bucnh of Iraqis becuase they are not good "globalization" team players?

Hmmmmm? I had forgotten that Saddam asked to have sanctions placed against Iraq!

(Hey, wait, Bobert, Saddam didn't!)

Ummmm, what am I missing here? The guy gets ostracized and then we gotta kill him becuase he ain't got enought McDonalds?

Danged!

This stuff is complicated...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Lanfranc
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:06 PM

"'Til every city, the whole world round
Becomes just another American town
They all hate us anyhow
So, let's drop the big one now!
Let's drop the big one now!"

(Randy Newman - "Political Science")

How prescient!

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM

Hmmm. So the world is round. And someone wants it tidied up so that "we" can exploit it more effectively. I think I get the picture.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:37 PM

Just in a brief scan it sounds to me as though he's taking a stance of "the masses are too ignorant to know what's good for the world, so we're going to take care of it and pat them on the head for their simpleness." Colonialism at its worst.

This was a very interesting interview and I would urge everyone to give it a listen at www.npr.org. Use the drop down menu to choose Morning Edition, then today's (11 March) show, then click on where you see the following:

Host Bob Edwards talks to retired Army Major Gen. Robert Scales about whether it would be possible to stop the momentum toward war. Scales says the U.S. military is capable of pulling back from any buildup ahead of war, though, increasingly, a pullback is quickly becoming a difficult diplomatic, political and strategic option.

Thanks for the link.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM

If this was about oil, we would have stayed in Kuwait and gone on to Baghdad in '91 and we would take over Canada and Mexico, two countries from whom we get a great deal of oil.
If you think that the UN is going to be the guarantor of global security, guess again. The UN's record is dismal. The Security Council passed a resolution requiring Saddam to disarm within 15 days. Saddam signed the agreement. That was 12 years ago. There have been 15 resolutions since then. Saddam has ignored them all and the UN has done nothing, zip, nada, zero.anything?
Ask the crowd down at the pub about
that one.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: Nemesis
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

Well, I got half way through this .. and what's he saying? "Eat MacDonald's or die?" He may be speaking as military strategist ... but he has no perception whatsoever of economic factors shaping the "Gap" (which is an ironic description considering the role GAP manufacturers has within the globalised economy). He's just trying to ineptly justify economic colonisation (by any other name) through force - using the sort of arch language of a conspiracy theorist ..

Unfortunately, I no longer work within the rarified atmosphere of the UNDP (Human Development Reports '97/'98), the Asian Development Bank, Senior World Bank Economic advisers .. cos, colleagues there could demolish his non-empirically prsented theories about the threat that under-developed economies seemingly pose to the West in about 5 minutes flat .. and I'm too knackered to be bothered to dig out resources

I think someone put it more succinctly in the pub:
We won't bomb white people cos they are basically signed up to the same things we are - friendly fire is frowned upon.
We won't bomb yellow people cos we either might need 'em .. and they can generally afford to buy our "stuff"
Don't bother bombing the black people .. cos they don't pose a threat and are too poor to buy our stuff
Let's bomb the brown people .. who have the oil we need to prop up the whole rotten system!!

"Of course the people don't want war....that is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Hermann Goering (Adolf Hitler's deputy) at the Nuremberg trials, 1946

Thanks for flagging up the article .. reading through the lines, it actually confirms what most of us think .. this war is about pinning down economic control of the planet's resources and trade whilst pretending to be the planet's moral saviour. The terrorists responsible for 9/11 just handed Bush a great PR opportunity / moral justification for accelerating a process that was already in progress.

Subject: BS: THE PENTAGON'S NEW MAP
From: RichM
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM

Mudcatters may find this point of view interesting
The Pentagon's New Map