Rookie needs advice

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Aug 03 - 03:16 AM

Or, ask them to show you a better one....

John

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 11:38 PM

I reckon Amergin is right, sing the songs you like, if anyone moans just tell them to get lost, or hit them over the head with a big stick.

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 08:33 PM

The Mudcat PermaThread Basic Folk Library might be of some help. I wouldn't suggest that you rush out to get them all, but an overview of what's "respected" source material may help when you come across something and need to decide whether to add it to your resources. If nothing else, it should give you an idea of the multitude of song types that fall under the "folk" umbrella.

Like blues, folk is as much "attitude" as it is a matter of playing the "right" tunes. Some of the references cited above are "things you should know" to join into the tradition(s); but they're not necessarily good guides to what gets played frequently, at least in my area. For that, you need to observe the sessions accessible to you, and get to know the players and the "group culture" of each session.

John

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 04:34 PM

Rise Up Singing is a good collection of songs and a good resource (I still keep finding stuff in there), but my objection to it is when everybody shows up at a song circle with their copy and they all sit around singing out of it as if it were a hymnal.

Sure, get a copy and learn stuff out of it, but leave the damned thing at home!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 04:10 PM

I really recommend that you get a copy of Rise Up Singing! Some people call it "the death of folk music," but I prefer to call it "America's fake book." Goodness knows it has the chords to gadzillions of songs, only a fraction of which are really traditional folk songs. Use it as a reference, not as a hymnal.

Also, learn the nature of the particular song circle you are joining. Some are essentially community sings, where most if not all the songs are old chestnuts that nearly everyone knows. At the other extreme are song circles for singer-songwriters, where they can try out works in progress if front of a generally supportive audience. Then there are songle circles that are really jam sessions, where they may be singing but it's the instrumental work that is primary.

Just as important, learn the rules or etiquette. These might be very structured and explicit, or they may be very informal, but in either case they exists. The song circles I like best are the ones where everyone in turn can do one of four things:

1. Lead a song. This means you expect other people will be joining in, both vocally and instrumentally. If it is not a well known song, or if you play a non-standard variant, it is a good idea to run through it one time so everyone is together.

2. Perform a song. This means you expect other people to listen quietly and not join in, unless specifically invited (e.g. to sing the chorus, or to provide a particular instrumental accompaniment). Song song circles strongly discourage the option of performing a song; others welcome it.

3. Request a song. This means aking someone else, either the group as a whole or an individual, to a lead a perform a song that you have picked. A person who leads or performs a song in response to a request still gets his/her own turn when it comes around.

4. That is neither lead, nor perform, nor request a song at the moment, but you reserve the right to do so once everyone else has had a turn and before the circle goes around again.

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:28 PM

It makes sense to work backwards from rock to folk by listening to groups like the Grateful Dead and Ian & Sylvia. "Dead Reckoning" is a must. It is in several topic threads on Mudcat, and it includes at least six traditional folk songs, including "Jackaroe", a variant of a Child ballad. "Sing Out!" and "Rise Up Singing" are being recomended to you because they are political. Following that approach would put you in the deepest rut in all of music.

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 11:56 AM

Pursue your selective affinities with vigah!! Everything else will follow.

A

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 11:47 AM

As someone in the same boat, and to answer your questions as best as I can:

(1) "Rise Up Singing" is, in spite of people's grumblings, a very good book, and is familiar to practically every Song Circle in North America. You can't go wrong with stuff from there, or from Jerry Silverman's Folksingers Workbook. Many of the chords for the songs in RUS are slightly inaccurate -- often the 7ths are missing, add a few 7ths to the chord names given, and you are usually doing ok.

(2)Standard progressions and melodies are what you bring, though you hardly need more than the basic I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V7, VIm, chords for most folk music. Blues and ragtime stuff, of course, have slight differences you will know about. A few diminisheds and augmenteds will pop up from time to time. The most sophisticated chording is usually Beatle songs. The odd part about folk music are the odd chord changes that come from modal tunes (see the thread Modes for Mudcatters).

(3) There are a number of threads here on Session etiquette. They are very, very important to fitting in, getting along, etc.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:27 AM

If you're already doing songs by the Dead, Van Morrison & CSN&Y you should have little trouble fitting in with most song circles. To the best of my knowledge, nobody's been shot at anything besides the most hard-core traditionalist session for singing "Teach Your Children" or "Friend of the Devil".

Bruce

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: open mike
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:30 AM

and here is the dirty linen mag. web site.
they have an extensive concert listing section.http://www.dirtylinen.com/linen/107/

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: open mike
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:28 AM

here is a link to the page for RUS-http://www.singout.org/sopubs.html

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: open mike
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:25 AM

try this magazine: http://www.singout.org/
(if you go to sing out dot com you may find
a gay and lesbian choir in the U.K.--this is
a differnt organization)

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: open mike
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:22 AM

you can probably find out more about rise up singing
by going to the sing out! web page. I would recommend
subscribing to Sing out! and dirty linen. both contain
songs, bios, schedules and great info. rise up singing
(R.U.S.) is p8ublished by sing out magazine, i do believe.
will check for web sites and send them along. Laurel

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: South Side
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:18 AM

Improv means improvise. I am thankful for all the advice and I will definitely let you know how things get on. I can't wait to start something new because it keeps the brain alive and the music fun.

Thanks Again,
South Side

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 07:06 AM

Depends on the club/gathering you go to. At some places, anything you choose to do will be acceptable, while at some places with a closer focus you might feel out of place doing something from another genre.

I would suggest going to a few clubs/gatherings just to listen and get the feel of what goes on, then prepare something that will fit in with that for the next time. The only way to find out is to do it!

Let us know how you get on.

Subject: RE: Rookie needs advice
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 06:53 AM

don't know what your folk do's in usa are like, but in uk[britain]any kind of song/music is acceptable.

in my experience its best to do what grabs you/gives you a buzz, then you can perform it from the heart instead of feeling compelled to do what you think others will like.

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 06:47 AM

Amergin has it right, except for the hell bit. Folkies are pretty polite people, generally, and will enjoy everything from Bach to Buddy. Don't try to learn a lot before you go, because you could live to be 100 and still not learn them all, just go to a lot of venues and see what rattles your chain....

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: Hrothgar
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 05:14 AM

And if you really want to start something in here, start talking about Burl Ives' "Song of America" or "The Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles." They might suit someone with your background.

Just out of curiosity - does "improv" mean "improve" or "improvise"?

:-)))

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 05:59 PM

Folk Song U.S.A. is an excellant place to start. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:29 PM

Depends on whether it's a sing around/along or an instrumental session or combination of both. Rise Up Singing is usually considered The Bible in a lot of places.

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 03:34 PM

just bring what floats your boat and damn everyone else...

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: South Side
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM

I now reside in Philadelphia PA. I was born and raised in New Jersey. I spent about 6 years in North Carolina and I was exposed to some great Old Time and Folk stuff there, Merle Fest Etc.. Then I spent about the same amount of time in Tennesse where I was exposed to Lots and Lots of songwriters and a whole bunch of really smokin' guitar players. I saw some fabulous bluegrass as well. As for my Heritage, I am the Irish Roman Catholic son of New Yorkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 03:16 PM

Maybe you should start by studying your own tradition ... where are you from?

Subject: BS: Rookie needs advice
From: South Side
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 03:11 PM

I have been a practicing musician for about 15 years. I have played in a variety of projects heavily influenced by music of the 60's and 70's etc.. Clapton, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Van Morrison, CSN&Y and many more. I want to dig into the folk scene pretty intensely and I need advice.
what songs should I bring to Song circles etc..?
How do I know what the standard progressions and melodies are?
Is there a book that anyone would recommended? "like the real book"
I have heard of Folk Song USA, Alan Lomax but I don't own it.
I have been learning some 20's and 30's blues stuff, will people know these, or does everybody just improv anyway?
Thanks,