cute singing - Grrr!

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:57 PM

Well, well well. This puts a whole new face on things. Thanks for telling about it.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:28 PM

Rutter? What was he like? Devilishly happy and ruthlessly positive, a coiled spring hunched over his score in his lap, then UP would come his wickedly-grinning head as he'd gesture out at us while we sang, wringing the best notes out of us..... I had NO IDEA who he was at the time.... he was just very simply nice and got a GREAT singing out of us. Most in attendance were choir directors (not me!). He was previewing new music, a pack of sheet music samples for each..... naive me, it was a sales thing! Who cares! It was glorious.

~S~

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:20 PM

No. Cute singer and singing cutely are quite different phenomena.

Old proverb: There is a lot of difference between a horse chestnut and a chestnut horse.

WYSIWIG: What is Rutter like? Did he ever have a really bad divorce from an alto? I tell myself that must be the reason why he writes those diabolical alto parts.

Two years ago my husband "Won the raffle" at church. Actually, the supposed prize was a bribe to make him tell me that there were no Rutter arrangements in the upcoming Christmas concert. My the time I learned the facts, it was Too Late.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:14 PM

I'm cute. I sing. Am I a cute singer?

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:57 PM

They don't understand that choral singers need to sing in a different way.

I was at a choral workshop John Rutter conducted (!!!!!!!!). He was able to communicate this by playing a boychoir tape. Then he explained that the pure, clear, non-vibrato tone is one (extreme) end of a continuum, and that many choral pieces are arranged with that tone in mind... that the effect when that tone is approximated is of bells ringing. Maybe a good recording illustrating this would help. Other tone colors in that continuum give other effects. In no case is the scoopy-swoopy thing wanted-- but asking what IS wanted might help eliminate it from one of the possible approaches. Anyway, a good choral director will specify what tone and color are desired, and will coach on technique to achieve this.

In one large community choir I was in, with a gamut of skills from Chicago Symphony Orchestra Chorus members to little old vibrato ladies, and all ages and levels in between, one of the CSO Chorus members had a neat trick for raising everyone's level of skill. He would ask, during rehearsal, what the conductor WANTED. "What tone do you want from us for this piece? Clear or rich?" etc.    The replies were often very helpful in bringing that blend into being. The more skilled singers would sometimes be asked to sing a line or two while others listened, to hear what (and who) they should blend TO.

~S~

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:46 PM

Thanks for the words of empathy and comfort. Our choir leader, who is very skilled, will eventually deal with this. I suppose the best way is to figure out what exactly constitutes "cute" singing and to explain that those techniques cause people to be out of tune. Of course, the word "cute" would never be used.

Hard to do though, with someone who shows up at the last possible moment. Meanwhile, I stick to my policy of not singing any words that begin with L.

It has occurred to me that most people don't get the chance to hear good choral music anymore. All they hear is soloists, whether they are opera singers or pop singers, and they assume that a good singer sounds like one of them. They don't understand that choral singers need to sing in a different way.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: MAG
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:34 AM

Our choir has a no practice -- no singing in the service policy. works for me.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:43 AM

Oops, I meant to ask if the individual mentioned in the first post would be agreeable to a private practice/lesson with the director. Over time she might take a more studied view of her role, especially if she sees that she's got something to gain.

For a couple of years when shift work prevented my regular practice attendance I joined a weekly practice with an inexperienced tenor who sought help. It ended up being good for him to hear his voice with my bass voice, good for me to get the closer individual attention from the director, and good for the choir to have us in better voice. I wish it was still possible.

Anyway, is there any chance she would enjoy the extra attention?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:32 AM

The choir leadership should be able to take corrective measures. For all the talk of acceptance, tolerance and Christian charity within the church, the choir is still a collective and co-operative group within which all participants need to understand their roles and the context of their tradition or mandate.

My parish choir has a woman who graciously accepts the (only occassional) solo as a matter of her commitment to the church, and I think she does so without an ego related agenda. Her phrasing and breathing and timbre can be quite different for a solo than when choral singing, and frankly it works.

We're pretty old fashioned, so we tend to sing without modern contrived "cute" articulations. Typical I guess where our combined experience would number several centuries, but there seems to be a growing respect for our older, rather English in our case, style of choral singing. After all, the idea is to lead an engaged congregation and that would be pretty hard if we all sang in personal, contrived, artificial and conflicting styles.

Oh, we have our troubles, like regular attendance, money, and overly commited members, but we struggle on, even when the director rides us about "words, words, words!".

My Dad (who composed some church music) used to joke that "The church's one frustration is in the chancel choir" to the tune of Aurelia. He knew wherof he spoke.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:54 AM

Well, I don't know about "cute" singing, but I was a member of a church choir. We had two so-called prima donnas of the male variety!

One was a bass baritone and the other was a tenor. They tried to outdo each other by seeing who could sing the loudest thereby testing the church acoustics to the full and drowning out the rest of the choristers.

Unfortunately, the bass baritine was the choir master and the tenor was his son!!

I was in the bass section and always made sure that I was at the other of the procession from the vestry into the choir pews and furthest away from the choir master.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: Matt_R
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:34 AM

In cases like this, I'd just turn up the volume on my electric guitar.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:29 AM

There's a world of difference between singing solo and singing togetyher - p'raps someone needs to eddicate her a bit, eh?


A

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:28 AM

Hey, it's CHURCH, so it's a ministry to the cute, as well. Find a kind, Christian way to correct her! "Judge not" and so forth!

~Susan

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:23 AM

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord..." NOISE?

What I can't stand is kids who cant carry a note with a co signer being put up in public because they are cute.

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: onlyme
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:54 AM

oh dear (sigh)

Subject: RE: cute singing - Grrr!
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:51 AM

Has she sung in the choir before? Is your choir director trained, or a volunteer amateur? The job of the choir director is to direct, and the job of a church choir director is to do it as diplomatically and kindly but firmly as possible- and that includes blending. I'm not currently a choir director, but I have done so in the past, and I just smile sweetly at everyone, remind them to sing so they can hear their neighbors, do a vowel-matching exercise or two, and rave about how wonderful they sound when they make the attempt. And of course pass on any compliments from the congregation about how great they sounded!

All the best!

Allison

Subject: cute singing - Grrr!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:47 AM

Just let me vent.

Went down to church this morning through an ice storm. It looked like we had one choir director and two members in the choir. (Practice and explanations begin 30 minutes before the service.) Two minutes before mass begins, in marches a twenty-something who can't be bothered.

She sings cutely - she coos, she croons, she swoops. It sounds like she is singing for three-year-olds. It's impossible to blend with her, of course. For some reason, singers like her particularly like to put special effects on words that begin with L. Today I realized that I should simply not sing any emphasized words that begin with L and just let her have at it.

She's good and loud.

I suppose the real reason it irritates me is that it is so egoistic. We are supposed to be worshipping together, all of us equals and all of us contemplating the words, and she is singing in a way that says "Notice me! I'm an entertainer! Ain't I precious?"

Hey, if anybody reading this sings this way -- QUIT IT.