BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: MBSLynne
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:45 AM

So I guess no one knows about the Welsh then?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:48 PM

If a woman adopts the name of the husband, this would always be with the Mac staying there - it would never be correct to replace it by Ni or Nic. That only belongs with the surname she was born with.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:35 PM

Yes, the genitive or 'possessive' case, its a grammatical term. Without a rudimentary knowledge of grammar its very difficult to discuss the way a language works.

In the Irish tradition a woman who married could be referred to as 'the woman of X', but might continue to use her own name as 'the daughter of Y'. This custom was not specific to any district of Ireland but as the new English language and customs superseded the old, spreading from the east toward the west, it is now seen as a Gaeltacht thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:42 AM

Were there not places in the west of Ireland where women did not change their last names when they married.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM

"put into the genitive case"

To satisfy my curiousity, have you ever studied Old English (sometimes erroneously referred to as Anglo-Saxon)?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:35 PM

'Mac' in the Irish means 'son'(not 'son of'); 'Ó' means 'descendant', (not 'grandson of').Both words are nouns, therefore the following name(also a noun of course) is put into the genitive case which can change the spelling.To take the name quoted in the previous post the name'Cairbre' means 'of Cairbreach'(ie the genitive case of Cairbreach). A literal translation of Mac Cairbre would be 'son/of Cairbreach', not 'son of/Cairbre'. With family names if the male version is Mac Cáirbre (son of Cairbreach)then the female version is Nic Cháirbre (daughter of Cairbreach, note that in this instance the initial consonant 'C' is aspirated). If the male descendants of Cairbreach are Ó Cáirbre then the female descendants are Ní Cháirbre.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM

so would a name like say Cailin Ruadh nic Cairbre be correct? Or would another term come into play?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: MBSLynne
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:17 PM

So in Welsh, son of is Ap. What is daughter of?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:37 PM

actually, names that begin with O (grandson of) for a male become Ni for a female descendant (daughter),
Names that begin with Mac (son of) become Nic for female

other variations have O becomming Ui for wives and Mac becomming Mhic for wives

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 11:15 AM

In Irish it is Ni (with an accent over the i) pronounced like "knee"
However, if the actual surname begins with a vowel sound it becones Nic (no accent on the i) pronounced like "nick"

I'd guess that Scots & Manx Gaelic are similar, but I don't know

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:56 AM

Many Scottish surnames begin with the Gaelic word Mac, son, e. g. MacInnes, MacAllister. In Gaelic, the form changes when referring to a female, to Nic.

Murdo MacRae is Murchadh MacRath, but Margaret MacRae is Mairead NicRath (compare Icelandic, Magnusson, Magnusdottir).

The above is from

www.english.uiowa.edu/faculty/ boos/images/questions/gaelic.htm

or Google

scottish gaelic ghaidhlig

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: MBSLynne
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:33 AM

Nic.

And surely it would be a matronymic?

Subject: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic
From: GUEST,bewildered
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:31 AM

Hi there,

I know that Mac or mhic is the male patronymic mean "son of"

as in Fionn mhic Cumhaill.

What is the female equivalent?