Black Britons & Folk Music?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:21 PM

Oops forgot to add that I know someone that I think had recently done a pamphlet for the council about black heritage in the East End.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM

Azzizi, you might be interested to know that there's a school of though which holds that Othello the Moor is a corruption of Moorean. The Venetian captain he probably based him on was from Moorea in Greece.
A lot of black Britons went to Sierra Leone in the 19th century. The USA established Liberia after being impressed with the colony.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:06 AM

Black individuals have, quite obviously, lived in Britain since time immemorial, but as many have pointed out, they have tended to intermarry/interbreed with the general population, thereby avoiding/preventing the development of a distinct Black culture. (Well, at least until recently, when an Afro-Caribbean cummunity and subculture has begun making its presence felt.)

Seems to me, then, that while individual musicians of African descent have undoubtedly made contributions to the ongoing folk process over the centuries, traditional music in Britain has not felt the impact of a thriving African subcuture in the same way that American music has.

As far as musical influences of African origin are concerned, any skilled and sensitive musicians, black or white, who had heard African music could well have felt the influence of what they heard, incorporated it into their playing, and contributed to the ongoing development of the music. Just as with "flamenco the true path," a genre in which guitarists of Spanish, Moorish, mixed and even Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage have long been listening, playing, being influenced, and influencing others.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

I know next to nothing about this topic, but I'll throw in a few odds 'n' sods from Wales ...

The cabaret singer, Iris Williams, is a Cardiff girl and got her start on a Welsh-language folk/variety t.v. programme in the '60s singing a Welsh adaptation of Amazing Grace (in Welsh). The producer chose the song and taught it to her phonetically. She was a major hit and I think she helped changed a lot of attitudes in terms of expectations of who sings in Welsh; also in terms of 'delivery styles' of Welsh hymns. I don't think she'd sung professionally before that.

Shirley Bassey is a Cardiff girl too, but I don't know where she got her start. Probably not connected to 'folk'.

A lot of popular sing-along songs, in Welsh, trace back to minstrel show songs. Whether or not they count as black music is another thing ...

In the '70s, one of the major folk/rock/pop singers, Geraint Jarmain, was into Carribean rhythms Big Time and influenced a many other more trad. artists, bringing a whole lot of new rhythms to the music. Geraint, like a number of the young Cardiff Welsh of the time, spent a lot of time down in 'the docks' where all the really good clubs and musics were, and they were largely black run and oriented. When I worked in the theatre there, a Saturday night down in 'Butetown' or 'Tiger Bay' was the definition of a good time. And when the banana boats came in to Barry docks - well! You didn't see some of the back-stage crew for days ...

There's also a weird element of 'what-goes-round-comes-round' in Welsh music. In the 1800s the Welsh Methodists sent legions of missionaries to Cassia in India with huge effects on the indigenous culture (I make no comments here on that) including instilling a love of part-singing of hymns. These days, the Cassians regularly send small choirs to Wales ... as missionaries. And they're cracking good singers, and can teach Welsh choirs a thing or two.

I'm currently putting some projects together with the Cardiff bay area ethnic communities to help them access trad. Welsh musics. They're telling me that political correctness is driving them mad. All the politicians want them to 'be' ethnic and expect (demand?) the steel drum bands and mid-eastern dance, et al. But they don't make any provision for these communities to access the 'welsh' side of their identities. I expect someone will end up giving me flak for foisting this 'white' culture on them ... but, fer heaven's sake !!! ...the request originated with the locals. Sheesh. In actual fact, one of the inner city schools has a steel band that has competed in the Urdd Eisteddfod (national youth music competitive festival) and wiped the floor with the usual school orchestras. 'Men of Harlech' is HOT on steel drums!

sian

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:18 AM

Interesting thread, check out EII who in various line-ups have been fusing Reggae and folk for 20 years.
Over the years I've played with lots of Afro-Caribbean, African and Asian musicians and in all these Bands I've introduced a certain European trad element.
The most mixed Band (stylistically and ethnically) I play in is the Suns of arqa, where I play Whistles, Bombard and Highland Pipes. We gigged extensively in Europe and the UK and played at Glastonbury a couple of times.
Having said that in the 20 years or so I've been a musician, I've never met any "Black" people involved in the Pub tune session scene.
That does not mean they're not there of cause, but I think the numbers must be very small.
I don't think this is a desirable situation for a continuing tradition but it is most definitely not due to the attitudes of the vast majority of the people involved.

TTFN

PP

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM

Sorry, didn't realise I was cookieless above(second April 14 guest).

No disrespect to Blacks/Asians etc. but they are not from Europe. How can they share our folk heritage? Why do the lefty liberals always have to be so PC and emphasize that the non-Whites have to be a part of everything that is ours.

" No disrespect " almost always precedes out and out disrespect.

I have several black mates who do come from Europe, Wolverhampton to be precise. You cannot tell by the colour of their skin how much of my history and culture they share. I go to a lot of folk festivals around England and particularly enjoy sessions in pubs where there is a good proportion of "General Public", i.e. where you have to do songs that other people like. I often hear regular folkies do the odd Bob Marley song ( Redemption Song, 3 Little Birds, Dont Worry 'bout a Thing), but then again Bob Marley had a white parent. I am Scottish and Bob Marley had Scottish grandparents. Perhaps he and I share more common culture and history than I do with our anonymous guest from who knows where. Perhaps anon guest will share with us what his untainted heritage and his music is, but I doubt it.

On a BBC documentary a couple of years ago I remember Dick Gaughan and Maya Angelou at a Burns Supper in Ayrshire. A great Black American icon reading Burns, but then she said it was her earliest and strongest influence.

Then again Gaughan is from Edinburgh and Glasgow people, like me, have never been that keen on people from there. You can always find ways to be different from anyone else but our shared humanity massively outweighs our differences.

To return the discussion to Azizi's original post I think that this is another of those threads that fragments on peoples different positions on what is folk music. At one extreme we have people who state the only legitimate folk music is what was sung by Dorset farm labourers 200 years ago, and then only if it was collected by one of the musical anthropologists of the time. If you take the view of folk music as people playing and singing basically acoustic music which tells of peoples lives then there are a number of people currently involved all around the UK.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:43 AM

At last! Someone other than me has mentioned flamenco, the true path! A lot of the strains of flamenco that I play do originate in North Africa, the Zambra being the most obvious.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:37 AM

Our folk heritage is cultural, not racial. It's bestowed on us by our environment and not by our genetics. You can't tell me that a man or woman who is descended from slaves or soldiers brought to this country at any time in the last 2,000 years suddenly has a 'black' culture rather than a British one simply because large(r) numbers of people with a similar colour skin started to come to live here in the middle of the last century.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

I don't read unnamed GUEST posts, so I wouldn't have seen that post from GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM if Azizi hadn't mentioned it.

In fact it's pretty nonsensical, as well as offensive, with its "By Blood they will never be British". "British" is a nationality which has been common in one form or another to people from all over the world for centuries. Nothing to do with "Blood".

That sentence is about as absurd as if someone in the States were to talk about "By Blood they will never be American" in respect of descendants of immigants of one sort or another (almost the entire population in that case, of course).

And of course Azizi is quite right to point out that there have ben black people in these islands for centuries, contributing to the common gene pool. Further back than that even - in Roman times there'd have been plenty of black soldiers and colonists.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:13 AM

Guest's comments seem very short-sighted - in fact, I hope they're just a wind-up.

If you're talking about the "purity" of West European traditions, what about Flamenco? Surely its Moorish/Arab influences are only too obvious? And, yes, there are quite a few white people in the MOBO listings each year - the acronym specifies music of black ORIGIN.

And if the anthropologists have it right, we're all ultimately of African origin anyway.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

I don't see many giving their names/real names on this forum - only silly nicknames - you neither. Our British forebears were from closely related White European tribes. No disrespect to Blacks/Asians etc. but they are not from Europe. How can they share our folk heritage? Why do the lefty liberals always have to be so PC and emphasize that the non-Whites have to be a part of everything that is ours. We don't try and get in on the "MOBO Awards" do we?

British Folk Music is part of our beautiful heritage and culture. The Blacks have their culture too. You simply cannot confuse the two.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:54 AM

Alright. I stand corrected.

I grant you that there is no way for ME to determine that Black people {meaning people with some African descent] had a 'great' [meaning significant] influence on British folk music prior to the 20th century.

But if you leave out the two words 'me' and the word 'significant' and also include the term 'folk culture', then I would say that researchers have documented that "the presence [of Black people] here [in Britain] goes back some 2,000 years and has been continuous since the beginning of the sixteenth century or earlier."

Because of that fact alone, and because the study of etymology, paintings, newspapers, and other literature {including Shakespeare's "Othello" and Johnson's "Masque of Blackness" {not to mention other forms of the performing arts, especially dance-and even setting aside the hot button topic of blackening up and Morris dancing} it seems that those who emphatically write that there was NO Black influence on the culture of the United Kingdom before the 20th century are refusing to study their own history.

As I said, I will grant you that it is far more difficult to ascertain what influence people of African descent had on British folk music-which is the topic of this thread. Given the musicalogy of African peoples, and our musical influence over time where ever we have been, and the historical documentation that Black people were continuously involved in music in the United Kingdom from the 17th century on, it would seem to me reasonable to conclude that people of African descent had SOME influence on music.   

And as to GUEST's 14 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM comment that "You cannot be Black and British (OK well only by Passport) But by Blood they will NEVER be British.", if that Guest is British {or even if Guest is not}it is possible that Guest might discover that one or more of his or her ancesters is an offspring of one of the numerous people of some African descent who merged within the White population.

After all, those Black people who were brought to the UK in the 16th century had and remained as personal 'servants' and manual laborers had to go somewhere-and all of them didn't only mate with other people of African descent, or die off without having offspring, or migrate to Sierra Leone, the Caribbean, Canada, United States, or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:23 AM

Who is?
I notice you don't give a name but most of our names betray that our forbears have come from another land somewhere down the line.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM

You cannot be Black and British (OK well only by Passport) But by Blood they will NEVER be British.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:39 AM

The folk music of the Caribbean and Jamaica was actualy heavily influenced by British folk music.

I don't know how much this can be construed as an influence, but blacks were in high demand as regimental musicians in the 18th and 19th centuries. For appearance as much as skill actualy.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: breezy
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM

That last paragraph surely is contradictory.

if there is 'no way to determine' how can you ariive at a conclusion and say it is 'a fact', that 'they had influence'

The abscence rather than the presence indicates that there is an absence which in turn means there is no prescence at all at all at all

Not many indo-Chinese invloved either.

and Johnny Collins organisd a Folk club in Singapore.

Its just that black writers and performers dont emerge onto the folk scene - yet, theys tryin to break into the big time.

Reverend Gary and Ray Charles got a mention last night, thanks to Derek Brimstone who explained that all these black guys were being ripped -off by record labels but got their own back by 'taking the piss' with their lyrics in blues songs which they recorded.

The blues and Jazz influences are very present, but black performers arent

However I do recall seing Black Paddy perform but more on the Irish pub circuit.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

Yesterday, as when I went to the library looking for a book on another subject, I stumbled across a scholarly book called "Black London: Life before Emancipation" [Gretchen Gerzina, John Murry Publishers, Great Britain & Rutgers University Press, USA]. This book focuses on what life was like for Black Britons in the 18th century. However, it provides some historical information about Black people in Britain prior to that century.

Among the books that Gerzina lists in her bibliography is what she refers to as an exhaustive work by Peter Fryer: "Black People in the British Empire" {London: Pluto Press, 1988}. Gerzina includes this quote from that book "the presence [of Black people] here [in Britain] goes back some 2,000 years and has been continuous since the beginning of the sixteenth century or earlier." p.xiv.

Another source that Gerzina quotes is Ben Jonson's "Masque of Blackness", 1605.

To add to the previous discussion on this subject, I'm providing these excerpts from the preface of Gerzina's book:

"..most historians give 1555, when five Africans arrived to learn English and tereby facilitate trade, as the beinning of a continual black presence in Britain. By 1596 there were so many black people in England that Queen Elizabeth I issued an edict demanding that the leace. At that times slaves provided a lifetime of wageless labour for the cost of the initial purchase, and increased the status of the owner. Alarmed that they might be taking jobs and goods away from English citizens and that 'the most of them are infidels having no understanding of Christ or his Gospel', the Queen issued another ineffectual edict, then finally commissioned a Lubeck merchant, Casper van Senden, to cart them off in 1601. "[i]f there shall be any persons or persons which are possessed of any such blackamoors that refuse to deliver them', the Queen wrote,'other citizens were to notify the government of their presence'.

Van Sender and the Queen waited in vain for black people were by then firmly ensconced in Britain's houses, streets and ports and portrayed in its stages...

As early as the beginning of the sixteenth cenury black entertainers had begun to appear in Scotland. Imported by the royal courts they quickly became not only popular but fashionably essential in England as well. Elizabeth herself, like her father before her, brought into her court and African entertainer and a page, making it 'clearly difficult for her to take a stand against the employment of Blacks when monarchs and their court favorites had themselves seen fit to find a niche for them in court'..blacks weres seen as fashion accessories..James I continued in this fashion ..he had a group of black minstrels and his wife had black servants. Whites 'blacked up' for roles as Africans in plays and masques. The theatrical draw then, as later, was in the visual contrast and spectacle, but also probably in the assumption that more behavioural and verbal freedom could occur under the guise of a 'black' skin." pp.3-4

-snip-

In her book's preface Gerzina also writes that "The roots of many English names come from the word 'Moor': Moore, Blackamore, Morris, Morrison, Morrow and others probably derive from Moorish ancestry as well as ownership. Morris dancing may have a similar source. Heraldry gives dozens examples of Negro heads on coats-of-arms" p. 5

-snip-

Gerzina also writes that "In 1768 Sharp and others put the number of black servants in London at 20,000, out of a total London population of 676,250. {Others, depending upon the year and the source, put the figure somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000, although the accurate figure is probably closer to 15,000.} These numbers were augmented by sailors, by students sent to study in Britain, by musicians who had become de riguere in English military and domestic orchestras and bands, later in the century by refugees from America who fought on the loyalist side in exchange for promised freedom in Britain or land in Canada, and finally by the natural growth of the community." pp 5-6

end of quotes.

It seems to me that although there may be no way to determine what influences Black Britons had on British folk music and other aspects of folk culture prior to the 20th century, the fact that they had a great deal of influence is indisputable.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:59 PM

Well what can i say I have browsed the comments with interest. Greg yer the man! teach me the guitar please.... Shambles I truely understand what you are saying, but hey sometimes some people need a bit longer to follow the path yer following! but I love your honesty and consistency. And more importantly to me I love a pint and pie with you sometime?
Corney as it may sound on the net but "has a Black man" I think, no I know, it is time we stopped the poor Blackman stuff, yes we is poor as are many white 'folk' but we is also developing and economically moving into an era where we can assist and support not only ourselves but also encourage others "Black and White' to shift themselves out of the mire.

Yeh I know initially not everyone can do it it but even if a sizeble number can, over the decade or so then hopefully we can have a greater impact on other countries economic and social development.   It does not have to be left to the 'old guard' such as Mr Burke to shape the world Mr Paine got it right when he commented "(in The Rights of Man)

"They learn it from the governments they live under: and retaliate the punishments they have been accustomed to behold. The heads stuck on spikes, which remained for years upon Temple bar, differed nothing in the horror of the scene from those carried about upon spikes at Paris; yet this was done by the English Government. It may perhaps be said that it signifies much to the living; it either tortures their feelings or hardens their hearts, and in either case it instructs them how to punish when power falls into their hands.

Lay the axe to the root and teach governments humanity. It is their sanguinary punishments which corrupt mankind. In England the punishment in certain cases is by hanging, drawing and quartering; the heart of the sufferer is cut out and held up to the view of the populace"   11/09/1789 200 years ago is not that long in our history.   

My friends great grandparents were slaves in the good old folk/bluesy US of A. And as my nans family where from Ireland and my granddads family where from Eygpt they were all as good as indentured peeps....   so 'times are definately changing' albeit slowly,
( in the grand scheme of things)         

are you all still awake!

Bye

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 07:46 PM

Mayhew's informants, the 19th century street singers of London, seem to confirm what McGrath says. They talked about learning from each other how to perform the latest fashion in singing, dancing, characters. At the time, they said, this meant American Blackface Minstrel characters. There is no suggestion of mockery of real Black people as far as one can tell from reading their words. The characters who were mocked were British upper-class twits and pompous asses. The characters, many of them well established, that were played for laughs were "Clown" "Jack Pudding" "Silly Billy" etc.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 06:40 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there hasn't been a lot of racism in the British Isles, or there still isn't a great deal. But there have been, and continue to be, some significant differences between racism here and across in America.

I think it is one of many areas of cultural difference between USers and Brits. I'm wondering if the fact that cultural difference has been explored, in this context, might result in better opprtunities to keep cultural differences in mind in general interactions around the threads. As I have experienced it, the degree of cross-cultural misunderstanding has been pretty high at various times.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 05:56 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there hasn't been a lot of racism in the British Isles, or there still isn't a great deal. But there have been, and continue to be, some significant differences between racism here and across in America.

With the end of slavery the relatively small black population which had been built up was absorbed into the general population. From then on until the 1950s, outside of sailortowns, black people weren't visibly present - they were probably generally thought of as another lot of odd foreigners, and like all foreigners, rather funny, and not really to be taken too seriously. "Johnny Foreigner" was a term in use quite widely. (It still is in fact, though with a greater sense of irony these days.)

Out in The Empire, of course, there were lots of black people, but that didn't directly impinge on life back here. The official line, of course, was that The Empire was a good thing, and that being ruled by Britain was a good thing for the natives, who weren't really up to that kind of thing themselves.

American type blackface minstrel shows were popular enough during the 19th century, but the context in which they were existing was different from back in the States, since there wasn't any element of mocking a differentiated local black community. I am sure it woudl have been seen as just people dressing-up and painting-up weirdly and singing funny American songs.

There was a craze for banjos towards the end of the 19th century, coming largely out of this, and I suspect that when people were dressing up for street performances and so forth, experience of having seen blackface minstrels would sometimes have affected how they disguised themselves, in the same way that memories of Pantomime Danmes would have affected the way dancers in drag carried on.

With the arrival of sizeable black and Asian immigrant populations in the 1950s there was, for the first time in a long time, a range of non-white communities here, with their own traditions. That has had a great influence on popular music in England, including folkies. But so far as native folk music is concerned it's been more through a process of osmosis than anything, and I think it'd be hard to distinguish the influence from immigrant communities from the influence from America via the mass media. Except maybe for street processions sometimes, where Notting Hill has shown how it can be done.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 04:40 PM

Yes, but was there any effect on music in Britain as a result of the minstrels popularity, and the minstrel broadsides printed there? What were Mayhew's comments? Were there effects on music in the following decades? Any essays by educators on the subject?

Do the Encyclopaedia Britannica essays (such as those in the 1911 edition which I have) reflect what was being taught in British schools?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 04:10 PM

Q, The book "London Labour and the London Poor" by Henry Mayhew (the section on street entertainers) gives a few clues about mid 19th century English performers' attitudes to Blackface minstrelsy. Mayhew interviewed his informants at the very beginning of the fashion. A lot has been said since then about Blackface performance but Mayhew was writing at the time!
"The Cowells in America" edited by Willson Disher is also a good source of information about the attitudes, in America, to Blackface performance. It's much more than this of course. It was also written at the time. The author, Mrs. Sam Cowell (her own title for herself) was a friend of many entertainers in America and England. She was touring in America when the Civil War began. Her stories about the bravery of entertainers who spoke out against slavery, from stages in the South, makes interesting reading. Her cousin barely escaped with her life, and lived in exile from her home in North Carolina, for the duration of the War. She, like many others, continued performing in the North.
Interesting reading both books. Cheers Joy

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 10:14 PM

Going back to the 19th c-
Blackface minstrelsy was very popular in the British Isles during the 19th century (roughly 1830-1880). Troupes from North America performed there regularly, some troupes for long runs (e. g. the Ethiopian Serenaders at the St. James in London for a six-month period, and at another venue in London before that- seven months or more!- I believe in 1846). British broadsides reproduced the songs in large numbers (the song about Dinah, mentioned above, appeared in a British broadside of ca. 1835-1840; see thread 65298 and post of "Old Joe").
What influence did this have on English music? Did the minstrels affect British attitudes towards blacks?

The Encyclopaedia Brittanica for 1911 has a very derogatory essay about Negroes (musical ability but prone to fighting, mental capacity inferior, etc.). Did this reflect British middle class attitudes of the time?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:45 PM

With regard to 'going ahead and singing the song', which songs do the groups sing and who chooses those songs? This may be a re-introduction of the thorny question "What is folk music?", but
I maintain that race & ethnicity may color this answer.

I am sure that it will - but perhaps a less conscious approach to this is the way forward. The music first perhaps.

Ironically myself and perhaps Greg may nearly always choose a song or a style that is not originally of our own ethnicity or race. I may even choose to play it on the banjo.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:47 PM

I did not purposely repeat the nest to the last sentence in the excerpt I quoted of the article. My apologies.

And since I'm writing, let me also say that perhaps different philosophies regarding the role and function of music and other art forms may be in play here.

From multiple sources I have read that African traditions do not believe that art should be just for art's sake [meaning only for aesthetic pleasure, or entertainment].

Music and art can teach & reinforce academic & social skills, help help individuals develop & strengthen self-esteem, and self-confidence and raise awareness and appreciation of one's own culture and the cultures of others.

This is what motivates me to consider the pyscho-social ramifications of music, among other aspects of music and music making in various places, among various people, and over time.

If you aren't into this, it's all good.

Do your thing, man {or woman}!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:01 PM

I found an interesting article today on race in cyberspace.
The article, "Race In/For Cyberspace: Identity Tourism and Racial Passing on the Internet" by Lisa Nakamura can be found at

http://www.humanities.uci.edu/mposter/syllabi/readings/nakamura.html

Sorry, I still can't figure out how to make those blue clickies. I'm technology challenged..

"Race In/For Cyberspace" refers to a website called LambdaMOO as its core example,and primarily focuses upon Asians on the Internet.
Here are selected passages:

"The technology of the Internet offers its participants unprecedented possibilities for communicating with each other in real time, and for controlling the conditions of their own self-representations in ways impossible in face to face interaction...This utopian vision of cyberspace as a promoter of a radically democratic form of discourse should not be underestimated....

Players [on LambdaMOO]who elect to describe themselves in racial terms, as Asian, African American, Latino, or other members of oppressed and marginalized minorities, are often seen as engaging in a form of hostile performance, since they introduce what many consider a real life "divisive issue" into the phantasmatic world of cybernetic textual interaction....

Chesher concedes that "In spite of the claims that everyone is the same in virtual worlds, access to technology and necessary skills will effectively replicate class divisions of the rest of reality in the virtual spaces" (28) and "will tend to reinforce existing inequalities, and propagate already dominant ideologies" (29). Indeed, the cost of net access does contribute towards class divisions as well as racial ones; the vast majority of the Internet's users are white and middle-class...

One of the dangers of identity tourism is that it takes this restriction across the axes of race/class in the "real world" to an even more subtle and complex degree by reducing non-white identity positions to part of a costume or masquerade to be used by curious vacationers in cyberspace. Asianness is co-opted as a "passing" fancy, an identity-prosthesis which signifies sex, the exotic, passivity when female, and anachronistic dreams of combat in its male manifestation. "Passing" as a samurai or geisha is diverting, reversible, and a privilege mainly used by white men. The paradigm of Asian passing masquerades on LambdaMOO itself works to suppress racial difference by setting the tone of the discourse in racist contours, which inevitably discourage "real life" Asian men and women from textual performance in that space, effectively driving race underground . As a result, a default "whiteness" covers the entire social space of LambdaMOO. As a result, a default "whiteness" covers the entire social space of LambdaMOO race is "whited out" in the name of cybersocial hygiene..."

end of quote

Shambles,
You said "My point is that where ever we may be coming from - we can always just go ahead together and sing the song. Perhaps that way instead of approaching an argument - we can avoid arguments on the subject and perhaps on other subjects too....?"

My intent for starting this thread was to elicit comments on the subject. This is a discussion forum, and discussion does not have to mean argument. Thus I see no need to avoid raising a subject that you would prefer be avoided. Earlier in this thread, I quoted Rodney King's now often repeated question "Can't we all get along?" IMHO, "Getting along does not mean {always}avoiding topics that some other people may consider uncomfortable or even potentially divisive.

With regard to 'going ahead and singing the song', which songs do the groups sing and who chooses those songs? This may be a re-introduction of the thorny question "What is folk music?", but
I maintain that race & ethnicity may color this answer.

In the context of this Internet forum I have chosen to identify myself by my race, African American. This is only one descriptor for me, and I don't include it in every thread that I start or every post that I write. However, in this thread, I believed, and still believe that my race & knowledge of my race are pertinent to this discussion.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

I don't believe that moving toward more segregation rather than less is in any way "forward." I fact, you might call me a Pollyanna, but I believe things are getting better rather than worse in this area.

I think it's just a fact of life that a very strong and well-defined Afrian-American culture exists in the US, and that no comparable separate culture exists in the the UK, at least not for nearly so many years.

I suppose it's arguable that the large numbers of black folks that have moved to Britain from the Caribbean and elsewhere since WWII may have achieved enough "critical mass" by now to have begun developing an independent culture. But it's not nearly so "time-honored" as the American black world, and it'll never be as severely separated from the mainstream culture as was the American black world for centuries.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:31 PM

My point is that where ever we may be coming from - we can always just go ahead together and sing the song. Perhaps that way instead of approaching an argument - we can avoid arguments on the subject and perhaps on other subjects too....?

We can argue on other subjects - if we must and we probably will - but it must be always better to make music together that to argue about it. It is certainly better to listen to people making music together than to listen to them arguing about it.

I think this thread is a good example. We know the attitudes and where they are coming from and the reasons why. Now what do we do? Do we adopt the more seggregated US approach to music making here in the UK - to keep them happy or insist that they accept our more intergrated appoach?

Sadly I fear that - as in all things - we will, in time we will be forced into adopting the US model, whether this is the best way forward or not.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:24 PM

My point was that whether you are English or Irish is likely to affect your approach to an argument on the subject.

With The Wild Rover it can work either way. I'm always very happy to point out that it's really an English song. But I think that's more because I like to get these things right than because I've that much against it as a song.

Being black, or whatever, can be as relevant in a place like this as, for example, whether you're a Catholic or a Jew or what country you are from, or whether you are male or female. That means, sometimes it's totally irrelevant, sometimes it's highly relevant, other times it's somewhere in between.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM

Shambles: of course, I know you'll never decide whether the Wild Rover is English or Irisah.My point was that whether you are English or Irish is likely to affect your approach to an argument on the subject. Very objective people may be affected a little, very partisan people a lot; but everybody is affected a bit, not always in a predictable way, so it's often interesting to know where are coming from.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:03 AM

I've been away from this particular discussion for a few days, and now (of course) have a couple of new observations.

I think that what The Shambles has been saying over his last few posts does not indicate that he's "up there somewhere in superior liberal utopian lala land" -- on the contrary, I think his position is more evidence of the point several of us have been trying to make -- that being black in Britain is not at all the same thing as being black in the US. In Britain, black folks have always been able to make their musical contributions (and to live their lives) *as individuals* in a way that has not always been possible for them in the US. In the US, black folks developed a distinct and separate subculture, which in turn has had a huge impact on the dominant culture, especially the musical culture.

PS to greg stephens -- I believe we agree much more than we disagree on this and related subjects, despite having traded a misunderstanding or two. I'm certainly impressed at your having played with Geno Delfose -- must have been a gas!
It may be true that in the UK, it's not especially relevant whether you're black or white, and not worth mentioning -- but believe me, in the US, it still makes a diffrence. Thankfully, not the same difference it made a generation or more ago, but being born and raised as a black person still entails the experience of living in a distinct subculture, sort of a world-within-a-world.

So yes, it may be that in the UK one's racial identity need not be relevant to this or that discussion, but it's not the same in the context of the US (or of American cultural/musical forms). In the US, being "black" is not just a matter of the color of one's skin -- it entails an entire cultural heritage as well, which *is* relevant to one's insights and opinions in a discussion of music, and well as the kind of contributions one might make as a player.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 08:08 AM

A few points: whatever the Shambles may say, or in whatever way we would wish the world to be, I think our race/cultural backgrounds are very important to how we perceive folk music, as central a component of the Art of Identity as anything.

They are not very important to me for this purpose, as they tend to get in the way of the music. But I simply question how helpful this approach is.

Are we are going to use music simply to confrim or compound our historical differences and allow this to continue to divide us?

Or if we are going to use music to help overcome these differences and unite us?

With all the wonderful musical opportunities now presented to us. It is less important where we are coming from - than it is where we are going....   

There are often contoversies on Mudcat, for example, as to whether certain songs(say "The Wild Rover") are Irish or English...or nether, or both. But it is perfectly obvious that people's country of origin is quite likely to affectr how they approach a question like this, we all have group loyalties,or disloyalties, like it or not.

Even if you could establish the definitive answers to such questions - is it really all that important? The fun seems to be in the arguing, but the important thing surely is that whatever a music's origins - it is there for everyone's enjoyment. And for everyone to take part in the music's development.

Music is a universially understood and liberating language. I feel that we should always bear that in mind, when we are using written words to talk about music. Or when we are dancing about architecture.....

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

I haven't been able to access this thread for a long time, so it's developed a lot since I was writing on it a while ago.
    A few points: whatever the Shambles may say, or in whatever way we would wish the world to be, I think our race/cultural backgrounds are very important to how we perceive folk music, as central a component of the Art of Identity as anything. There are often contoversies on Mudcat, for example, as to whether certain songs(say "The Wild Rover") are Irish or English...or nether, or both. But it is perfectly obvious that people's country of origin is quite likely to affectr how they approach a question like this, we all have group loyalties,or disloyalties, like it or not.
And as I often pontificate on black music, or white music, or any other topic, I ought to come out myself. I am a bogstandard white middle-class male. My main areas of interest are NW English traditional music, but my specialist area is southern USA folk music, particularly Louisiana, cajun an, creaole and zydeco. I have played many many gigs with JC Gallow, the black musician from Maou, Louisiana, who frequently gusts with the Boat Band, when he tours with us in England. I have also worked with Gino Delafose's band, when I was the only white guy in a black zydeco band. I also do a lot of musical work with refugees in Stoke-on-Trent (England), so I have close experience of how folk music is used by recently arrived immigrant groups to maintain their cultural links, and I have also observed at close hand how immigrant musicians can integrate(or not integrate) into the general cultural life of the country. I also have the standard white liberal musicians' exaggerated(?) respect for black musical forms. I was brought up on jazz and blues, worshipped Leadbelly from the age of 12, etc etc. Which is why I like reminding Poppagator that Amadee Ardoin was black, and emphasising the importance of black musicians to cajun, ot whatever. Like most British musicians, also, I have an inordinate love for calypso, ska, reggae and so on.(though like a lot of post 50-year olds, I dont go a bundle on gangsta rap).
    Now, you may think this is an egotistical ramble through my own mind, but I do believe we need a little of our own histories to know where we are coming from, and let others know the possible background of our prejudices.
    And to the matter in hand: English musicians, like African musicians, are and have always been ingenious and quick to learn. Any African musical person arriving in England in 1700 would have figured out what to do with a fiddle in ten mintues, whether or not they came from north or sug-Saharan Africa. Likewise any English fiddler(or a substantial percentage of English fiddlersa), when coming across a black dancer doing the solo hornpipe spot in an English pub in 1720, or finding a group of black fiddlers giving it some in Liverpool in 1750...well, they are going to react just the same as me faced with Leadbelly in 1957, or the Stones with Muddy Waters, or anybody with Louis Armstrong or Jimi Hendrix. They would say "Give me a slice of that".
    We really do not need a thriving plantation culture(as in America), or a millions strong sub-culture(as we have now), to explain black influence on indigenous English music in the 18th or 19th century. These things happen easily and quickly. And they will have happened in London, or Liverpool, or Bristol, or Whitehaven, to start with. Not in Little-Piddling-in-the-Mire!. London and Liverpool was where the blacks were, and where there was work in plenty for fiddlers and dancers. That's how, and where, cultural transfers happen.
   The sea-change in English fiddle music from 1700 to 1800(and American music) was very much black influenced. That is what I am suggesting. And no, I cant prove it, Neither can anyone else. I would put it in the category of the Bleeding Obvious. I just hope some universities will direct a bit of research money in that direction, to reinforce some of the background information.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 01:18 PM

The Shambles c/o


up there somewhere in superior liberal utopian lala land...?????

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 12:39 PM

Mudcat is a treasure trove of information on multiple genres of Black music. Surely I'm not the only Black person who happened onto or was led to this website.

In the context of sharing information about one's music experiences,and insights on historical examples, it seems to me that declaring one's race has value.

I don't want to come over as too hostile on this (as I am not hostile at all) but does - declaring one's sexual preferences, gender, disabilities etc have any similar value - for sharing information about one's music experiences etc? Or is only one's race that is thought important?

None of these things are thought important by to know - for the puposes of music discussion. This is not because I assume that every contributor is the same race as me (or assume that they are not). It is because like many other's - this aspect is simply not important in a context where everyone's views will be treated equally, simply by the value of what they are saying.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 12:09 PM

But seriously though, that question about the contribution of Black folks to British culture during those times is what this thread is all about.

In truth there was also a subtext - are there any black Mudcatters?

I can see why this might matter and be of interest to some but I don't really see that this request is generally very helpful nor the assumption made that their are few if any - just because the poster may not state their ethnic origin, gender, sexual preference etc, in every contribution.

They is no way of knowing these things from what is written and as these issues do tend to divide us - it may be better, for music discussions, that we don't know. I see music as means of overcoming these divisions and in a similar way - there is no way of knowing (for sure) by just hearing it - what the race, gender etc of the performers may be. I would suggest that for the enjoyment of the music - this does not really matter very much.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Hiya all
Just a quick note, Black British stuff can be found on 'africlassical.com' checkout Samuel Coldridge Taylor. I would call that stuff Folk! not just classical... Also I am Black British! who listens to folk, Blues etc. but also who is able to enjoy all sorts of music.   I think that most Black musicians in the early/mid 20th c played to earn a living, but unlike in the states, there were too few opportunities to make any sort of living due to who owned the record companies and even if there was an attempt to self finance a record, the Black UK market was small and probably poor. Hence our looking towards America for our music (which we bought back in great numbers from our seafaring days)

I am trying to learn the guitar and listen to the likes of..
Nick Drake. Ted Hawkins. Alex Glasgow. Duffy Power. Mike Badger.
Robert Johnson and any other folk/Blues who take my simple ear.

Joe

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

I would say that whatever impact they made, they made as individuals -- not as representatives of a distinct ethnic subculture with a life of its own.

I think that would also be true of most white English folk enthusiasts., who, for the most part, don't emerge from an ethnic subculture, but rather get involved in it from outside.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 02:28 PM

While individual musicians of African ancestry undoubtedly made significant unsung contributions, I would say that whatever impact they made, they made as individuals -- not as representatives of a distinct ethnic subculture with a life of its own.

This is a generalisation but it comes pretty close to describing what is looking to be the main difference between the US and UK. I think it would also be generally true that there has been little attempt to exclude anyone from contributing to folk music (or any other music) in the UK. While black people in the US may have greatly influenced all US music (then the rest of the world) - in the UK it is probably more the case that black people have contributed directly to it - in pretty much the same way as every other individual here has done.

Or this was the case until fairly recently. There are signs that in areas where there large groups of younger black or asian people - these are starting to develop separate musical genres.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:53 PM

I've never got my head round how to use the "make a link" button, I prefer to just do it by hand.

Here is a link to Joe Offer's explanation of how to do that, in the FAQ. (It's at 17 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM.)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:38 PM

It's in the FAQ, and it will help make sense of the following explanation for using the "Make a link" ("blue clicky") thingie:

Link URL: This is where you paste or type in the URL you want the link to take people to-- the address line of the web page you want people to go see.

Link text (optional*): This is where ou type in whatever it is you want people see as the blue underlined thing to click to go to the page you want them to see. If you don't enter anything here, the URL itself will appear in your post, blue and underlined and functioning as the link.

When you have those entered, you click the "Create Link" button. The next screen that pops up gives you a line of text to copy and paste into your post. And a link is in that screen that atomatically tries your link so you can see if it's a working link before pasting it into your post and submitting your post.

Email link: This section is what you use if what you are sending peope to is not a web page, but an email address.


If you are not able to copy/paste, you won't really be able to use the link-maker. But Joe's instructions in the FAQ will work, and you can type the links without pasting, right in your post.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:31 PM

McGrath of Harlow, or anyone else who knows,

Can you walk me through how you make those hyperlink blue clicky things?

I clicked on the line across from the submit message button, but I'm can't figure out the meaning of the instructions that appear there.

I've learned that a URL is an address of a website, right? But to which address are you suppose to send the URL that you want to show in the message to, mudcatcafe.com?

Thanks,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the link,McGrath of Harlow.

That's an interesting article that I will bookmark.

Although when I read this intro:

"slavery, trade, and war brought Africans to London in increasing numbers over the course of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. By the end of the American War there was a population of between 5,000 and 10,000 black men and women living in the capital, a central ingredient to the ragout of cultures and lives that made this a world city."

...I wondered, besides chocolate or pepper, what was "the central ingredient that Black men and women living in London during those times" contributed to "the ragout of cultures and lives that made[London]a world city."

That's my feeble attempt at humor...It rests on a 'ragout' being something to eat. I'm not really sure what a "ragout" is...

Maybe I'm just trippin...Well, it won't be the last time...

But seriously though, that question about the contribution of Black folks to British culture during those times is what this thread is all about. And some interesting responses have been posted.

Thank you and best wishes.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 06:53 PM

"That isn't to say there were no fiddle traditions in Africa at the time in question, because there were, but they were almost exclusively North African in origin, like imzad fiddle music. It is my understanding that there just weren't many North Africans living in Britain at that time (1700s), and the few of them there were, certainly didn't have the power or influence Greg is suggesting upon the English fiddle tradition, as their music tradition roots were from sub-Saharan Africa, and their presence in Britain being due to their participation in the British slave trade." (One ofvthose GUESTs without names attached)

Of course there'd have been a fair number of people from the British Isles in North Africa as unwilling "participants" in the North African slave trade. Our history is a lot more complicated and intertwined than is always recognised. It'd be interesting to know if such slaves had any influence on music out there.
...........................

Here is an interesting page about The Black Communities of London which makes a point that after the American War of Independence there was a considerable influx of Black   people from the former colonies, who had backed the Loyalist cause.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:43 AM

I have to. Sometimes they've got clinker on.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:38 AM

You don't hide yer pink bits do yer, how prudish

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:35 AM

What a stupid thread. I can't believe so many people fell for it. I'm white in the winter and brown in the summer with some hidden pink bits all year 'round, but all I'm interested in is enjoying music played by any multicoloured fingers. Azizi you're just a wind-up merchant!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 05:20 AM

We have a band in the sunny Beverley area like that, called 'celtarabia' well mad! Dulcimer, hurdy gurdy, electric guitars. Remind me to hire you their CD sometime mupps.
             Mucky Bradford, the true path!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM

I was at the Bradford Mela a couple of years ago (well I'm there every year, it's when I get my wardrobe re stocked and I sample the many different dishes from across the world)and at this particular one as well as the big names from the Bangra world performing, on the smaller stage through out the weekend were the finalist of a fusion band compitition. By eck what a treat that proved t' be. It was a case of bangra meets Ragga meets rap meets celtic meets wot ever. There were Celtica Salsa (I think that's what they're called), but wot I enjoyed most a group which really fused cultures, the set started with the guy who plays the pipes in the Afro Celts on stage on his own doing a series of gigs and reels, then a group of guys in traditional costume came on with Bangra drums and joined in and graduly took over the set for 5 mins or so, then the pipes came back and joined in and then took over and he finished doing a solo again. Mind blowing or what.I look around and everyone was up and rocking, young, old, brown and pink, it was a moment to savour.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 04:04 AM

Foiled again!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM

One of the things I like about this thread is I never know what aspect of the subject and related subjects and not really & truly related subjects folks will be sharing from post to the next.

We've been posting information about history & culture such as Ignatius Sancho, the British Spinners, EK2, Riverdance, Animal House, the Bad Taste singing competition, Notting Hill Carnival,Buckwheat Zydeco, Bo Dollis & the Wild Magnolias, & all the links from those for radio stations to Boka Halat & Baka Beyond to the secret gnome clubs.

And we've been exploring "heavy duty" subjects that will always be with us such as what is folk music & what is the most appropriate reference for people of African descent.

Hopefully, we've demonstrated that Mudcatters [and people in general] don't need to agree with each other all the time. Inspite of the disagreements, misunderstandings, and sometimes not too gracious remarks, we have shown that we can keep on posting because the information is worth the effort.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:44 PM

What happened to Ted ?? Left this 100th for me !

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:11 PM

Azizi (and all),

No offense taken, and I hope none on your end either. I do feel for you in your role as the almost-only black voice in this particular group. I myself, white as I am, sometimes feel slightly different just for being more *interested* in "blacker" (or perhaps "bluer") musical genres than the typical Mudcat folkie. Not unwelcome or uncomfortable at all, just a bit out of the mainstream. I'm sure you have similar feelings at times, and I'm glad that you don't seem to be dissuaded from participating!

And yes, we're always talking to *everybody* at the same time that we're responding to another individual. I try to remain conscious of this, both when reading and when writing, but don't always succeed.

I may have exaggerated my degree of intimacy with the Indians and the Zydeco players, but not by all that much, really. *Much* of the live music available in New Orleans and nearby is Zydeco; the players themselves, the bands, are generally based out in the country around southwest Louisiana, not here in the city, but they play in town regularly as they cover a circuit stretching from New Orleans in the east to Houston in the west. I once attended a church social at an all-white Episcopal church (St. George's on St. Charles Avenue) featuring Buckwheat Zydeco (Stanley Duran). The Rock 'n' Bowl at Mid-City Lanes, corner of Carrollton and Tulane, features Zydeco artists *very* regularly, but many other venues around the city, like Tipitinas and the Maple Leaf, book Zydeco acts often enough. And no outdoor festival around here would be complete without at least one Zydeco band, usually more.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s, my kid brother and his bandmates were more-or-less unofficial members of the Wild Tchoupitoulas Indian gang for a couple of years. They lived in the neighborhood, had mutual friends, hung out at "rehearsals," and came along on Mardi Gras day. There was never any question of these young white guys masking (wearing Indian costumes), but they were part of the procession, singing and banging on percussion all day long. Anyone encountered on the street (e.g., me) could also join in the chanting and follow along for a while, of course, but I was never on the march from the git-go, starting at sunrise if not earlier.

Indians "rehearsals" are something else. I have a number of friends who became regular attendees at Wild Magnolias rehearsals at a little bar at Philip and Carondelet for a few years back; this was back when my kids were young and Peggy and I didn't go out at night much, so I tagged along just once, not regularly. Rehearsal consisted of imbibing as much official Indian firewater as possible -- gin and white port, approximately half-and-half -- and chanting/singing/drumming to the point of self-hypnosis. Definitely big-time fun.

Last spring, I was talking to my across-the-street neighbor and asked if he would be attending Jazz Festival (which was coming very soon). He said, "I usually only go on the one day when my brother performs; he gets me in free." I asked (of course) who his brother might be, and the answer was Bo Dollis. I was amazed: Bo is the absolutely greatest singer of all the Big Chiefs, someone who has been a *big* star for many years in the insular little musical world I inhabit. You can hear his huge foghorn of a voice on the Wild Magnolias album issued back in the early 80s, and I think there's a very new release of Indian music on which you can hear him to even better advantage. (I've been hearing isolated cuts on the local radio station, but haven't learned the album title, or even whether the stuff has yet been released.) At any rate, I've since been introduced to Bo when he was visiting Rodney and while we're not the closest of friends, we've certainly become "acquaintences."

I take so many opportunities to plug my favorite all-volunteer community radio station, WWOZ, that I may sometimes self-censor and omit inserting a link when I should. There's no particular time slot dedicated either to Zydeco or to the Indians, but you're likely to hear either type of music during any of the programs not specifically dedicated to jazz to to particular world-music genres (on weekends). The DJ known as "The Doctor" is especially interested in Zydeco and plays a lot of it -- he's scheduled on alternate Fridays, 11am-2pm, and does a lot of "subbing" at various other hours. Actually, the 11-2 slot and 7pm-midnight, M-F, are probably the best times to happen upon either Zydeco or Mardi Gras Indian music -- but listen in anytime and you might hear something new and different. (The above link is to the broadcast stream.)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM

Gnomes

http://www.foundus.com/jani/gnomes/welcome.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:06 PM

Dave the gnome, with regard to thread creep, I finding the discussion all interesting and hopefully others are too. And I don't find you creepy either, but, um, you do have that name, so, I'd better be careful..though I'm not quite sure what I gnome is...

;0)

PoppaGator,
Its true that I do see this forum as an opportunity to increase awareness & understanding about African American & other global Black cultures...Perhaps part of the problem is the nature of the Internet discussion forum itself. While the post is directed to a specific individual, the person writing is aware that many others will read it. And so,Poppagator, I was taking advantage of "a teaching moment" and writing to you but with others in mind.

That being said, I didn't feel that I was being pretensious or patronizing in my comments to you. I apologize to you if you felt that was the case.

I am SURE that you "have more firsthand experience of Zydeco music, and number more Big Chiefs and Spyboys among my personal acquaintances, than [I] or indeed anybody reading this forum."

I regret to say that I have NO personal experience of Zydeco music/musicians and NO personal experience of or with Mardi Gras Indians. Which illustrates the point that I was attempting to make in the the portion of the post that you took exception to:

"See my post in the thread on contemporary Black folk music for the passages that I excerpted from the web on two African American cultures that [I believe] most African Americans are quite unfamiliar with: Zydeco music & Mardi Gras Black Indians. There are a number of sub-sets of African Americans whose lifestyles and music is shaped by their ancestor's nations of origin, and their regions, religions, political beliefs, and economic status etc."

end of quote.

PoppaGator,I would love to hear about your experiences with these two groups, but I guess those worried about thread creep would say it should be on a new thread so that many others could comment specifically about those types of music.

Where ever on this forum that you post about those genres of music and others I'll be reading & learning.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:45 AM

What's that Leadfingers - somebody beat you to it!!!! ROFLMAO!
S:0)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:19 AM

Just as a matter of interest , the Bad Taste singing competition at Sidders this year was won by lad of (I think) Affro Carribean parentage !

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:31 AM

Azizi:

I haven't checked into this discussion for a day or two, so this is a late response to your message of 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 PM.

I never meant to imply that ALL Africans who came to America were enslaved in exactly the same way in the same geographical area. -- only that the shared experience of second-class citizenship (or more often, non-citizenship) typified by but not limited to slavery, most common in but not limited to the South and its plantation system, created conditions that led to the development of a distinct African-American culture.

The only point I was trying to make was that, while black musicians may indeed have made contributions to British folk music *as individuals*, there was never a distinct "African-British" folk *culture* at all comparable to the culture developed by African-American people in the US. The contributions of black persons to the folk culture of the UK would therefore be qualitatively different from, and more difficult to identify and describe than, the contributions of the black community in the US to American folk culture.

I may have expressed myself too concisely, in a sort of "shorthand"; I certainly didn't anticipate being quite so misunderstood.

As for your deigning to educate me about the Mardi Gras Indians and the Zydeco community -- puh-leeze! I daresay I have more firsthand experience of Zydeco music, and number more Big Chiefs and Spyboys among my personal acquaintances, than you or indeed anybody reading this forum.

(Please don't take offence -- I don't mean to be nasty or personal about it, but just had to get that off my chest.)

Changing the topic just a bit, I hear what you've been saying about American blacks being ethnically diverse in their ancestry. Very few black Americans (if any at all) are of purely African descent; in fact, most are probably fairly close to half-Caucasian/half-African. I've often wondered why it is that a person with one African great-great-grandparent is automatically (and often recognizably) "black." Even thinking about myself: three of my grandparents were Irish imigrants, the other German. I identify myelf pretty much as Irish-American, but at Oktoberfest I have no problem being German. If I had one African grandparent, however, I would have much less choice in the matter -- I'd be black, not Irish, and if I were a generation older, I'd be subject to Jim Crow laws and all the rest of that evil nonsense. Sure is a crazy world, ain't it?

If I had an hour or two to spare, I could start rambling on about the exceptionally weird race-relations history here in Louisiana, inlcuding the Octoroon and Quadroon balls, black and white Creole society, etc., etc. But I don't, so that's it for now...

As for the "Otis Day and the Knights" scene in "Animal House" -- sure, I've seen it. I have to say that it does not at all gibe with my own experiences as the only white guy (or half of the only white couple) in a black nightclub. I'm sure it has everything to do with the attitude with which you enter the place, but *every* time I was ever in that situation (it doesn't happen so much these days; I'm talking about 15 to 30 years ago), people were falling all over each other trying to be gracious and welcoming -- sometimes embarrassingly so. All because I/we obviously had a sincere interest in the music; not really much unlike Bluto and the boys from Animal House. Of course, I often *really* knew someone in the band, who knew I'd be there or with whom I may even have arrived -- Bluto and them busted in crying "Otis! My main man!" -- but Otis didn't even recognize them.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:42 AM

You're too harsh on yourself, Dave. There's no need to call yourself a Thread Creep. :0)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:20 AM

Yeh, yer right of course, muppett. The only bit I may have changed is the word 'majority'. Most of the folk clubs I have been in have had neither 20-versers or statues in the audience. There are a few though, unfortunately:-(

What we need to concentrate on are the section, which I think are in the majority, of excelent clubs, singarounds and sessions going that suffer as a result of the misinformed few. Instead of putting out the, in my mind, false image of arran jumpers, beer and beards (says he in his arran jumper, beer belly and beard:-) ) we ned to concentrate on the new and dynamic. There are many out there who do it. E2K have been mentioned but there are an equal number of solo local acts who are just brilliant. Without even going to the internationals like Kate and Eliza there is a plethora of talent on the circuit. Try Anthony John Clarke for one. Or Jim Malcolm. Or even, of course, Muppett:-)

Cheers

DtG
(Sorry for the thread creep Azizi - It happens here occasionaly...)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:51 AM

Edward II or as they became EK2.

http://www.iconicmusic.com/e2start.htm

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:38 AM

Baka Beyond

http://www.mp3.com/Baka-Beyond/artists/35670/summary.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:35 AM

Boka Halat on this link.

http://www.adastra-music.co.uk/boka.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:29 AM

Dave I agree with that there is nothing wrong with British Folk music, However I have a BUT as well, I can understand why the media and people involved in the folk scene take the micky out of it,it's the way a large majority of folk have presented it (note I say the majority as there are some great exceptions out there)E.G. in a pub sing around in festival fringe events, where the vast number of the audiance are new to folk music and you get some one singing a ballard 20 verses long and thus completly killing the atmosphere. Also the same can be said about a great number of Clubs I come across, where an artist is giving it everything only for the audiance to sit there like cardboard cut outs, I don't expect them to be rocking in the aisles, but sometimes I really feel for the artist particularly when they are asking for audiance participation, I want to shake them (the audiance), quite often I wonder whether it's a church I'm in or a folk club.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:53 AM

Merina:

Azizi's original post asked for comments on the influence of Black people on British folk music. We can always get into the horse discussion- any music is folk music if you stretch the meaning far enough- but you point out yourself (though I don't think you meant to) that Black and Asian folk music have contributed as much as beardy fat beer swilling middle-aged little-Englanders to the ghettoisation of ALL varieties of folk by simply ignoring the existence of other sorts. We could be PC and say British Asians are British so Asian folk music in this country is British folk music, but it's not very useful when you fudge things like this- all you can say is that Black and Asian influenced abolished what was left of the indigenous music. Doesn't sound too good, does it?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:51 AM

A public performance, open to all, will attract those people who enjoy the type of music on offer. Music associated with black cultures will attract more black people than music associated with white cultures - and vice versa. Modifying the music probably satisfies no one.
Racial bias or prejudice would only be shown if the presence of ethnic groups was made difficult.
There is no problem in 'clubs & sessions where middle class white people go to sing olde Englishe & Scottishe folke songes and play the Irish tune', provided that anyone is welcomed (which has been my experience).

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:32 AM

If you mean the clubs & sessions where middle class white people go to sing olde Englishe & Scottishe folke songes and play the Irish tune, then you won't find many black people there. (It always seems a shame to me that British folk music prefers to live in a tiny ghetto where it's not heard by the majority of British people, of any colour or culture)

Merina, I am sure you didn't mean anything offensive and I am honestly the last person to take offense at most things but...

How did you know there was a but coming;-)

I must take exeption to the type of attitude that is so dissparaging about British folk music. There is nothing at all wrong with British folk music. Why on earth are the media and, quite often, people involved in the folk 'scene', whatever that me be, so willing to take the mickey out of it? If a few more people spread the word about what a rich culture and range of music is thriving in the 'white middle class' clubs then perhaps we would have a wider range of people attending?

If I were to say "If you mean the clubs & sessions where ganja smoking black people go to sing old jazz & blues songes and lay down some funky rhythms" I would be acused of stereotyping. Yet people seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to do exactly the same thing to me and the music I love. Do you think that is fair?

I know I am probably misconstruing what you meant so please forgive me if that is the case. I do feel very strongly about this though and feel I need to rant and rave occasionaly when I see my own culture being treated unfairly.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Merina
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:01 PM

There is a huge amount of thriving black/ Asian folk music in Britain - just take a look at the BBC web site The World On Your Street http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/world/onyourstreet/index.shtml

It all depends on what you mean by the folk scene. If you mean the clubs & sessions where middle class white people go to sing olde Englishe & Scottishe folke songes and play the Irish tune, then you won't find many black people there. (It always seems a shame to me that British folk music prefers to live in a tiny ghetto where it's not heard by the majority of British people, of any colour or culture). If you mean the festivals, you will find a higher proportion (though still small). Many influences from all over - reggae, ska, music from many regions of Africa, Asia and Latin America, blues - are now quite normal. Bands like the late Edward 2, the current Boka Halat, Baka Beyond had/have mixed line-ups. If you simply mean folk music in its broadest sense - in that every country has some - then the big English cities are full of black folk music of one sort or another.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Grab
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:33 PM

However, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that pre-20th century, Black people in the USA exerted a highly significant influence on that nation's culture, but prior to the 20th century emigration to the UK of Africans & Caribbean people, the cultural influence of Black people in the UK can't be documented?

You can't have an "influence" unless two groups are able to listen to each other.

So before immigration in the 1950s, black Caribbean music had no influence on UK folk, because there was no opportunity for people in the UK to hear it. But white US folk *did* have an influence on white UK folk, because there was substantial communication between the two groups - it didn't change the style of UK folk, but it did mean that some tunes like "Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah" got picked up by performers and would be known by the British audience. So before 1950 or so, the only black influence on British music would have been indirectly via American music, and then only in some bowdlerised version suitable for a white audience.

After 1950 of course, British music took off with the combination of British, Caribbean and American influences, and all those influences have vastly expanded what we play. But none of that is generally considered to be "traditional" - "traditional" in a British context would be taken to mean songs in the style of that country's historical inhabitants, which excludes "old-timey" and calypso.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Davetnova
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:45 AM

Azizi- Interseting that you should mention the American Spinners. They made theircontribution to British folk with "Games People Play" as sung by Dick Gaughan.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

Jaze

You are right. I inadvertantly left off Richie Havens. I don't think of him as a black folksinger, either. I do kind of think of him as someone who needs to learn how to play in standard tuning!! :>

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,whitesalright????
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:54 AM

"but are we not all wonderously diverse?"
no...

in reality
most of us white people
are just plain pasty blotchy puffy faced & unappealingly ugly..
even smug white hippy liberals..

Btw.. i'm an exception..
I'm white and wonderful..
but then i eat well and exercise..
and dont feel uncomfortable
if black people want to take pride in their color identity
and raise it as a reasonable an valid issue
engaging in wider cultural and arts debate..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:24 AM

All this to say, African Americans are a wonderously diverse people....

I am sure they are - but are we not all wonderously diverse?

And wonderful?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:56 AM

This site seems to make an effort to avoid bias.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:53 AM

here

There's plenty of material on Google. Much of it is selective and puts a slant on the topic. Some of it makes depressing reading.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:52 AM

Azizi,
       Cheers for that, the point I was wanting to put across was that many folk are particular (and rightly so)about celebrating where they are from or are proud of their roots (again rightly so)So why isn't skin colour used as accurately, as I said earleir I've yet to meet a BLACK person,where as I've met plenty of people who are varying shades of Brown. It's now not PC to call native Americans (or is it 1st Nation)Red Skined people or Chinese folk Yellow, So why is it still OK to call folk with Brown Skin, BLACK?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 08:50 AM

Muppett,

Well my mother's parents are from Barbados, and I know that my maternal great grandmother was White. So I guess that makes my Caribbean/Anglo. And due to my brown skin and tightly curled hair, and other features, I'm sure that I have African ancestry. So I know that on my maternal side I am African/Anglo/Caribbean. My father was African American, and he was legally adopted even way back in the late 1920s. So I know nothing of his ancestors, but since he was considerably lighter in complexion than my mother, I would suspect that there was some racial mixture there too. Who knows, maybe I also have some Native American ancestry or some Asian ancestry too.

All this to say that African Americans are a racially mixed population. If we were in South Africa, most African Americans would probably be considered "Coloured". Indeed, we did use "Colored" once upon a time [1950s-1960s?],but with a different meaning than the South African "Coloured". We went through alot of referents trying to find one that best fit us..including "African" as still refelected in the Protestant denominations African Methodist Episcopal [AME] and African Methodist Episcopal Zion [AMEZ}.

One of those referents that I still use informally is "Black", although it is no more accurate than "White" to describe skin color. Formally, I use the term African American. Yet I realize that "African American" doesn't describe with specificity the many sub-sets of that race. For instance, I have a two seperate families as friends who came from continental Africa- one in which the husband came from The Gambia, West Africa and the wife, African American and the other family in which both husband & wife came from Kenya, East Africa. The childern in both cases, and indeed the both sets of parents are considered to be African American, but they and, to a lesser extent their children who were born in the USA, have different cultural mores than me.

All this to say, African Americans are a wonderously diverse people....
---

Stu,

Thanks for those interesting statistics. Just for the record, do you have source that you can post?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:32 AM

found this

British black population

1596-1601 Elizabeth I orders explusion of blacks from London.

1780-1830 Black population of London 5,000, Britain 10,000.

1914 Black population `several thousands'.

1955 Black population 100,000.

1960 Black and Asian population 250,000.

1990 Black and Asian population two and a half million.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:19 AM

I'm an Anglo, African- Carribean, Irish French Canadaian, Southern (UK)Born naturalised Yorkshire man I don't class myself as BLACK, my Skin is BROWN, I have never met anyone who's skin is truly black.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:59 AM

Azizi,the EFDSS article on Ignatius Sancho does actually reprint the music for Sancho's dance, The Sword Knot, with dance directions, as well as his melody for a song called Kate of Aberdeen (there are no words for the song though).
    The book about Sancho , to which I above referred, was published by Garland Press in 1981

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Azizi - when I was young(up to early teens) in the Midlands I don't think I had ever seen a non-white person 'in the flesh'. There followed a lot of immigration in the 'fifties, and the area in which I lived became multi cultural. There was very little cross cultural musical influence that I was aware of. Foods changed noticeably - spices and fruits/vegetables that I had never known became available in the shops, and the cafes reflected the changing population.

There was some stress between members of different communities, and occasional outbreaks of violence. Generally people from different backgrounds stayed and played together. I don't think this was ghettoisation, more staying with the familiar. This was a pattern that had been seen before with Poles and Hungarians - this tends to be less visible.

The choice of music that was available widened during my youth: generally my groups followed traditional jazz (I didn't know about folk) and many artists were black (few if any Asian) but I don't think anyone took any notice.

I don't know if census figures help here, but I suspect that prior to the 'sixties the black Briton made up a very small percentage of the UK, and consequently had little influence. This is now not so in many areas, but in the area of Folk Music things move slowly - if by Folk Music you mean predominantly 'White' folk music. There are many British Folk who aren't white, but seek music outside the Folk Club.

I'm not sure what question I'm answering; I do think that the US and the UK have hugely different backgrounds in terms of racial groups and characteristics. Perhaps my ramblings will clarify some points - perhaps they will muddy the water.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 08:49 PM

GeoffLawes,

Thanks for that information on Ignatius Sancho. Someone upthread had also mentioned this composer.

I'm assuming that this article doesn't name or really describe these tunes. Is that correct?

Do you agree that Black Britons exerted no real influence on British music until 20th century immigration of Africans & Caribbean?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 08:25 PM

Azizi,you may be interested to find out about Ignatius Sancho (1729-1780) a black composer and former slave who lived in eighteenth century England who is credited with over thirty country dance tunes with dance instructions in an article by Julian Pilling in the English Dance and Song Society magazine English Dance and Song of Summer 1996. The article is very brief but refers to a book by Josephine R.B.Wright called Ignatius Sancho (1729-1780) An Early African Composer in England.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 PM

PoppaGator,

I agree with you comments about self-segregation in public nightclubs. There's a funny/sad scene from the movies Animal House where the White fraternity guys and their dates traveling on the road & seeing a sign announcing that the Black band that recently played at the fraternity party where at this club. The guys & their dates walk in and all talk & action stops as they realize that they are the only White people there. If you haven't done so, watch the movie and see what else happens...

You wrote:
"Blacks in the US created a folk culture of their own, rooted in the shared experience of being taken straight from Africa, in large numbers, to the plantation South"

I think that it is good to summarize the points, but may I tweak your points about African Americans a bit just for more historical accuracy?

I would say that African Americans [Blacks] created folk cultures. Also, all people of African descent who came to the United States were not enslaved, some had been enslaved in the North, and some in the South did not live on plantations... In addition, all enslaved African Americans were not taken directly from Africa, but went first to the Caribbean.

See my post in the thread on contemporary Black folk music for the passages that I excerpted from the web on two African American cultures that [I believe] most African Americans are quite unfamiliar with: Zydeco music & Mardi Gras Black Indians. There are a number of sub-sets of African Americans whose lifestyles and music is shaped by their ancestor's nations of origin, and their regions, religions, political beliefs, and economic status etc.

However, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that pre-20th century, Black people in the USA exerted a highly significant influence on that nation's culture, but prior to the 20th century emigration to the UK of Africans & Caribbean people, the cultural influence of Black people in the UK can't be documented?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:26 PM

I'm from Atlantic City, New Jersey, but I've lived in Pittsburgh, Pa since 1989.

Unfortunately, there's not many night clubs in Pittsburgh that feature "Black" music of any kind. We're only 12% of the county, and 20% of the city but that's no excuse. We do have an annual jazz festival...

At any rate, yes, let me know if you are crossing the ocean and coming to the three rivers.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:25 PM

I don't think people are actually denied admission on the basis of race any more, but there is a lot of self-segregation in the States, a lot of venues where management, entertainment, and customers are either all-white or all-black.

My own experiences as the only white person at a predimnantly-black club, or one of a small group, have always been perfectly cordial. Of course, New Orleans isn't representative of anyplace else in the US (or in the world, for that matter).

To summarize what I've concluded on the main subject here:

~Blacks in the US created a folk culture of their own, rooted in the shared experience of being taken straight from Africa, in large numbers, to the plantation South.

~Blacks arrived in Britain in much smaller numbers, usually by way of the Western Hemisphere rather than directly from Africa. What musical and cultural influences they brought with them was already the product of some interaction with "western"/white culture. While individual musicians of African ancestry undoubtedly made significant unsung contributions, I would say that whatever impact they made, they made as individuals -- not as representatives of a distinct ethnic subculture with a life of its own.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:18 PM

:D - I never voted for anyone, Azizi - only ever against...

Don't worry - wasn't blaming anyone. Where abouts are you btw? Next time I am in the 'States - possibly 2006 - would I be welcome at any of the music clubs you go to? I'd love to see a 'real' music club in the States. I have seen plenty of live music there, from Moutain View, Arkansas to Country fairs in rural Illinois to Jazz bars in Chicago, but never got to know one really well.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:08 PM

Dave the gnome, don't blame me. I voted for the other guy.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

If you gather from my comments that I believe that there is still a lot of segregation in entertainment venues in the United States, you would be right. I do find that very enlightening, Azizi. There are odd venues where people are not very welcoming but rarely, apart from the 'private members' clubs, would anyone actualy be denied admission. That is particularly true of entertainment venues rather than drinking establisments as well!

I can often be found in the Archway in Hulme where the jazz funk plays till 2am to a predominantly black crowd. I have always been treated with nothing but friendliness. Likewise although our folk club is predominantly white I cannot think of an instance where anyone black, brown or any other colour has not been made more than welcome.

Perhaps there is hope for us in the UK after all. Until GW and his puppet decide to make a 51st state. Not that I'm being political or anything...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Michael Flatley is an American dancer from Chicago of Irish descent. he popularised Irish traditional dancing on a worldwide scale with a routine called Riverdance and a show called Lord of the Dance.

In England at least he has kindled an interest in Irish traditional dancing that has crossed all boudaries of race and class.

If I have got that wrong, I'm sure somebody will put me right.

Jack Hudson is in the opinion of many the finest country music voice England has ever produced. he gigs throughout the UK regularly.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:46 AM

One more thing, while I feel that race shouldn't matter with regards to work, housing, health, schooling, entertainment, etc. unfortunately it still does.

That we can certainly agree on and work towards addreesing. But let us not take this issue into areas like folk music - where race really does not or certainly should be allowed to matter.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:31 AM

weelittle drummer & others, I know that I don't know and I'm trying to learn. That's why I appreciate the different perspectives shared here.

For instance, wee little drummer, unless I try to google these names I haven't a clue who Jack Hudson and Michael Flately are.

From my perspective, I would offer that there is no folk scene in African American urban areas like what I gather from Mudcat posts exists in the UK {i.e. clubs where musicians play and people sing traditional folk songs}. Maybe there are some in predominately White neighborhoods or in the downtown areas, but I wouldn't know about that.

If you gather from my comments that I believe that there is still a lot of segregation in entertainment venues in the United States, you would be right.

I think the nearest thing we have to people singing along at nightclubs is karaoke. Some of these clubs may very well be integrated. Maybe that counts as folk music but I rather think that folk purists wouldn't think so.

Of course, I could be wrong as I'm not [and no one else is] the voice of all Black people here or anywhere.

One more thing, while I feel that race shouldn't matter with regards to work, housing, health, schooling, entertainment, etc. unfortunately it still does.

I acknowledge my race here because I believe that it helps add context to my remarks.

In other circumstances, I don't go around waving a race banner. That's not my style.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: jaze
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

Martin Gibson, what about Richie Havens? I've always considered him folk and he is still contemporary. Funny, though, I never really think of him as black. Just a great singer with a great style. And a guy with a great perspective on things the time I've seen him interviewed.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:59 AM

Well why should race dictate what we like and what we play. There is a black guy plays regularly at the club I go at Loughborough - - but he plays a sort of flamenco-ish sort of music.

I'm by descent I guess Irish , but my heart sinks when the uillean pipes walk into any folk club I'm in. My Mum used to sing Slow Boat to China doing the dishes - not the Dubliners songbook, not a jig dancer in the house.

For years in America, the acoustic blues was the pre-occcupation of white kids like Koerner, Ray and Glover. although I can see it was maybe more marketable for record companies than black practitioners - the line we were being sold was that Black people looked upon the country blues as the music of repression and the awful past. I notice Eric Bibb doesn't cite exclusively black players as his influences.

In England , look at the ton of shit Jack Hudson has been forced to eat, by the so called guardians of a tradition that for most of us doesn't extend back to our parents. I've lost times I've heard him referred to and sneered at as a 'pseudo yank'. All because God bestowed gifts of singing and a guitar playing on a guy born in Derby rather than Detroit.

Its not like we're all peasantry and we only hear one kind of music. Probably the most successful reggae band in the world is UB40, and the two main guys out of that were Ian Campbell's kids - he of the Ian Campbell folk group - Swarb's first gig.

Are you trying to tell me there are no black kids in Chicago who want to dance like Michael Flatley? I can't believe the folk scene is that sad and insular.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:42 AM

I am a bit reminded of the Litle Britain sketch - "I am the only gay in the village".

It may be difficult but does not really help if you approach any situation from the position of being black, gay or whatever first, especially when you are addressing the culture of a land different to your own.

There must always be the possibilty that you may actually come across a group or society that is intergrated and accepting. One that is not overtly racist, sexist or whatever. If you should ever come across this rarity - there would be little point in trying to turn it into a society that is openly divided, just because you may be able to understand it better. But there are degrees of intergration. I don't think that anyone is claiming our society to be all-inclusive and perfect in its treatment of minority groups - it is far from that - but it is plainly different here to the USA.

White middle-class males with beer-bellies as a qualified as black middle-class males or anyone else in the UK, to speak of how they may view their society. However, we probably are not qualified to judge and comment on US society. We can however, all learn from these differences.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:08 AM

I am finding it quite intrigueing that on this thread and the one about mumming there seems to be an obvious dissparity of attitude between US and UK catters on the question of race. Perhaps it is just me, although I think not, but the attitude in the UK seems to be that race does not matter. In the US it does.

I will point out that I am not overly qualified to comment as I am a white middle aged, middle class male with a beard and beer belly! Archetypal folkie or what:-) However I have lived almost in an inner city area amongst people from all races all my life. I am also of Polish decent and came across some quite fierce predjudice against me in my younger days:-( All that being said I have never considered anyone to be any different to me regardless of race, colour or creed. Most of my peer group are similarly inclined although I have come across horrendous racism in some of my local pubs and clubs.

The point being no-one I know of would even dream of asking the question about what contribution black people have made. We are all fokies and come across enough predjudice against us from the unknowing masses and ignorant media without further sub-dividing the genre! We are lucky enogh to have, I hope, an integreted society where Sca rhythms are as welcome in the folk club as morris dance is at the Moss Side festival. Moss side being a heavily black area btw for those who don't know it, where I know both cotswold and north west teams have danced.

I am as certain as anyone can be that people of all races have contributed greatly to the magical mix that is on the folk 'scene' at the moment. Whether that folk scene is represented at a predominantly white, black or sky blue event does't seem to matter here in the UK.

Does it in the US?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:53 PM

If I see a black person doing something on the guitar that I quite fancy - i'll probably have a go at nicking it. Thats how it works with folk players.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:22 AM

But contemporary adaptions of festivals like Notting Hill has no historic antecedents in Britain, so I don't think it is a legitimate example of black British influences on what most British folk music afficionados would refer to as "their peoples' music".

I would also point out that the example given by Greg doesn't exactly wash either. There is no evidence of African fiddle traditions influencing British folk music, because the blacks in Britain at that time didn't have indigenous African fiddle traditions to draw from, and would have assimilated themselves into the white British fiddle music traditions and not the other way round. There is no evidence I am aware of that shows blacks in Britain having African music traditions and instruments being adopted in Britain the way they were in the US and other parts of the New World like West Indies of Trinidad, Tobago, and also certain parts of South America--NOT EUROPE!!! That would come MUCH later.

That isn't to say there were no fiddle traditions in Africa at the time in question, because there were, but they were almost exclusively North African in origin, like imzad fiddle music. It is my understanding that there just weren't many North Africans living in Britain at that time (1700s), and the few of them there were, certainly didn't have the power or influence Greg is suggesting upon the English fiddle tradition, as their music tradition roots were from sub-Saharan Africa, and their presence in Britain being due to their participation in the British slave trade.

The 'New African Music' that Europeans are now familiar with has it's roots in the hybridized African, European, and American pop music influences that resulted from the slave trade in the New World, not in the indigenous folk music of Africa travelling directly to Europe. The music and traditions of calypso, carnival, etc came by way of the New World, and are unique hybrids based upon which European culture enslaved them. In other words, the Spanish/African influence gave rise to the tango and rumba, the French/African influence gave rise to biguine, and the Portugese/African influence gave rise to the samba.

It was the British who are mostly responsible for the colonization of the Caribbean, and so the combination of the British/African music traditions resulted in what is now known as calypso (from Trinidad). But Carnival's influence is directly related to the Christian festival, hence it's seeming "universality" among Europeans. The connecting factor is Shrovetide, of course, despite the very pagan nature of the festivals and their anti-religious fervor. Carnival is essentially a pagan rebellion against the Christian hegemonic grip upon the enslaved peoples of the New World, leading into religious orthodoxy and it's "sacrifices" forced upon them during the season of Lent.

Azizi, if you are interested in the call and response thing, you may wish to track down an excellent series done for American public radio by black American historian Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon (also of Sweet Honey in the Rock fame). It was called "WADE IN THE WATER: AFRICAN AMERICAN SACRED MUSIC TRADITIONS." She devotes almost an entire program on the influences of call and response between the African slaves and the Scottish descendants of the Hebrides, who also used call and response in their hymn singing, upon both communities' music traditions. It's a fascinating subject.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:19 AM

Hope you find this a useful contact for what you seem to be looking:-



Farside Music Diary (regularly updated)
Nov 21st Eddie Murphy
Well known Holllywood superstar moonlighting as brilliant singer of traditional
folk songs
   + Others

Nov 28th Red Leicester Choir
   Offshoots
    Both back by popular request

Tues 30th Re-Scheduled Committee meeting, 8pm at The Globe, Carts Lane, Leics

Dec 5th 4.30 - 7pm Free workshop (booking essential, phone Chris on 0116 2552745):
Classical Indian song and improvisation, led by Carl Peberdy
8pm John Obokoh & Friends
Carl Peberdy

Dec 12th Corey
African vibraphone player from Derby

Dec 19th Christmas Party Night, details tbc

Tuesday Dec 21st Solstice Showcase
We have a Kurdish group from Nottingham,
Steve Parker - Leicester singer-songwriter,
and more ... watch this space

Dec 26th No Farside Event
Jan 2nd No Farside Event

Tuesday Jan 4th Committee Meeting, The Globe

Jan 9th Roger Wilson
Internationally acclaimed singer/songwriter performs English & American folk   
songs on guitar & fiddle

Jan 16th 6.00pm Annual General Meeting at Y Theatre. All welcome

Jan 23rd Carole Palmer
Brilliant local singer/songwriter

Tuesday Jan 25th Burn's Night:
Songs & poems from the Bard, celidh dancing & Scottish tunes from a wide range of musicians

Jan 30th tbc (Upstairs in the Dance Studio)

Tuesday Feb 1st Committee Meeting, 8pm at The Globe

Feb 6th tbc

Feb 13th tbc (Upstairs in the dance studio)

Feb 20th Harkesh & Friends (Upstairs in the Dance Studio)
   





Wheelchair access. No smoking in the theatre.

Bar open from 7pm (smoking allowed).









Getting involved with Farside Music:



Farside Music is organised by a group of people who involve themselves with the aspects that interest them. Each member of the group, with help from others, can arrange a Sunday evening, on a rota basis. At present there are about 12 of us.



We meet monthly at The Globe, Carts Lane, Leicester, usually on the first Tuesday of the month to discuss and co-ordinate Farside activities. Anyone interested in any aspect of Farside Music will be welcome (but phone Jan or Roger first to check the meeting is still on).



PLEASE NOTE: next meeting is Tuesday 30th November - there won't be a meeting in December



For more information about Farside Music contact:

Jan Robertson (0116 2700699)






If you are interested in music/vocal workshops - running them, or attending them, please get in touch. We are currently asking for ideas.



Farside Music is supported by the Y Theatre

For information about Y Theatre: http://www.leicesterymca.co.uk/content/ytheatre.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:52 AM

The Shambles,
To borrow a hip-hop phrase "My bad". I guess I have to begin to look at the BS topics. I hadn't done for some time. I'll check that thread out. Thanks.

Thanks also to McGrath of Harlow for those links. That's interesting. I've never been to any Carnival, but my daughter has been to Caribana in Canada three years in a row...

In reading back on these posts this morning, I note that Super Ted is the only Mudcatter so far who indicated that he is Black. Maybe there are other Black posters on Mudcat but they aren't interested in this topic. And maybe they don't want to acknowledge their race for whatever reason.

Yet, I think that one may have a different insight on subjects as a result of his {her}race/ethnicity. I also believe that individuals with different racial backgrounds are likely to have different experiences that could add to richness of the discussion here.

I sometimes think of how different some Mudcat discussions would be if a large percentage or the majority of posters were of African descent. As a minor example, I remember seeing a post on Greek songs or chants or some such title, and thinking "If there were more Black people from the USA writing here, that thread would be about African American Greek letter fraternity & sorority step chants." Of course, it was of no such thing...

Oh, well. You can't have everything. I repeat what I wrote on some other thread: I continue to come to Mudcat because of the high quality of information & resources on topics I'm interested in.

Now if I could only convince other African Americans I know who are interested in these topics to play pass the "N" word references and concentrate on what they can learn from the site and what they can share so that others might learn from them...

I'm trying.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 09:10 AM

Notting Hill has a sizeable Black population (among others), and has had a massive Carnival in August since the 1960s - Brixton also has a lot of black people, but they didn't get a Carnival going, so they hop on the tube up to Notting Hill, along with pretty well everyone in London. Here is a site with masses of Carnival photos And here is a more general site Carnival

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Well, if I had waited to post I would have been able to read McGrath of Harlow's post about the Notting Hill Carnival. Is this the one that is held in Brixton?

No and the question about 'blackening-up' is topical – see this current BS thread..

Mummers and racism

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:09 PM

Well, if I had waited to post I would have been able to read McGrath of Harlow's post about the Notting Hill Carnival. Is this the one that is held in Brixton?

Also, before this thread, I posted in a thread about May in Morris Dancing and for some reason, never got a response to my question about the custom of Morris dancers "blackening up" [putting on cork or something to darken their faces}. I wanted to know if this still occurs. I saw it as a custom representing the Moorish origin of Morris dancing, and in that sense honoring those Moors and meant no disrespect...

Anyway, if the Moorish {excuse me} Morris dancers did eventually participate in Notting Hill Carnival in Black face, I wonder how well they would be received.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

McGrath of Harlow, thanks for posting that link. The newspaper says that "Whites were not allowed because all the performers were Black."
We'll probably never know, but I wonder whose decision it was that non-Blacks couldn't attend the party-the performers {attendees} or the White in power then?

s&r, and thanks to you also. When I first read your post I wondered what the R&B group the Spinners had to do with Black folk traditions in Britain. The R&B group, The Spinners, are known for such soul classics as "Then Came You," "Games People Play," "The Rubberband Man." and "Could It Be I'm Fallin in Love." My confusion about the two groups is an example of how experiences can shape expectations.
I'm glad to learn about the UK Spinners group.

Also s&r, I've heard that there's a huge carnival in Brixton every year. Are there are other carnivals there or elsewhere in Britain?

When I wrote my initial post I was wondering about the contribution of pre-20th century people of African descent to British folk music. Though I didn't include this, I also wonder if elements of American & Caribbean "soul music" show up in contemporary Black British music. A list of those elements are the use of call & response, improvisation, emphasis on the beat as opposed to the lyrics; preference for falsetto & gritty voices, the use of instruments to imitate the human voice, and preference for blurred or dirty tones in vocal and instruments...

However, just because call & response for example is found in old British vocal music, that does not mean it comes from Black Briton's influence...This afternoon I read through John Storm Roberts' "Black Music of Two Worlds, African, Caribbean, Latin, and African American Traditions' {New York, Simon & Schuster Macmillian, 2nd edition, 1998} and found this interesting passage about the use of call & response in European music:

"Though call & response singing was more coomon in Europe at one time than it os now {some scholars see it as linked to tribal and communal ways of living}m by the tume African and European music met in the New World it had survived in European usage only in a few forms,such as church litanies and ballad refrains. European folk music's ,ost typical tfeatures, the division into regular "verses", came from the equally tupical tendency of European poetry to be divided into regualr groups of lines, most often two, four, or eight. The musical form tended to follow the poetic divisions, so that most songs-unlike songs in the call-and-response pattern-were series of neat packages of four, six, eight, or twelve lines, separated byy pauses or joined by a bit of instrumental filling-in." {p. xxx}

end of quote

It's been interesting reading all of the posts in this thread. I very much appreciate all "appropriate" responses to my original post and certainly welcome more responses!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:56 PM

Notting Hill Carnival is most decidedly a major black folkloric event, and very welcoming to white people as well, taking part as well as watching. And then you have samba bands turning up and taking key roles in, for example the Strawberry Fair in Cambridge in June (where I always feel they end up looking and moving remarkably like Morris Dancers...)

I haven't seen any Morris Dancers at Notting Hill Carnival, but it can only a matter of time.

And in this article about the origins of Carnival in Trinidada there is a mention of "the performance by blacks of British mummers' plays and other Christmas customs."

And a more modern referance to Mummers in the West Indies is included in this site about Banbury Hobby Horse Festival in 2003 - "A highlight was a performance of a play based on the 'Mum and Tuk' mummers plays from the West Indies put on by a school from Gloucester." (And here is some more about that.)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:10 PM

If carnival is folk music there are large and thriving carnivals in the uk - colourful and spectacular. Does it affect British folk? Or is it British folk?

Probably both, although the music is different to most folk clubs I know.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:07 PM

http://www.rootsweb.com/~canbrnep/whallvc.htm

William Hall was a sailor in the Royal Navy, who lived in Canada and won the Victoria cross..... being black wasnt an issue he was a British Sailor.... only recently has it become a big issue to annotate the colour of someone. He was a fine man, a good shipmate, and yes black too....

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

The Spinners here

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:58 PM

The Spinners were influential in early days of the folk revival; Cliff was black and an integral part of the group. I'm sure he had an influence on the music of the group.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:34 PM

And here is the newspaper report itself, from the London Chronicle, 16-18 February - with an photo of the cutting.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM

I see something went wrong with that link I gave in an earlier post to an article on a BBC site - The First Black Britons (Moral - always check your links with the Preview button.)

There is lots of evidence of black people in that period being involved in various types of entertainment and musical activity, and that means having an input into how it developed.

For example, from that article I linked to: A newspaper report from 1764 also describes how 57 black men and women ate, drank and entertained themselves with dancing and music - from violins, French horns and other instruments - until four in the morning, at a public-house in Fleet Street.

My impression is however that most of the time this kind of involvement would be as part of general music-making - in the same way that black sailors sang shanties along with their white crewmates.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:01 PM

GUEST,Greg Stephens,

You wrote that "English music changed a lot in that period
[1650-1850] and I have a hunch that black people may have had quite a hand in it."

Would you please summarize the changes and why you think that people of African descent might have played a part in them?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:56 PM

McGofH is probably right in that the absense of the plantation system in Great Britain has to be a significant reason for the UK's lack of a distict, independent (and segregated) black culture like that in the US.

However, I do still think that there have always *much* greater numbers of African-descended people here in the US than in the UK, and that the weight of sheer numbers also makes a qualitative difference between the situations on either side of the ocean.

Also, as a number of British correspondents have pointed out, Black Brits were historically able not only to assimilate into the larger culture, but even to eventually "disappear" into the general population, over generations, due to intermarriage.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:50 PM

I think everyone will do their best to answer the question, but it could be a tough one. We will inevitably come back to questions like "What is folk?" and "What do we mean by a Black Briton?"
I used to say glibly that folk songs were just pop songs with whiskers on 'em. I meant that all folk songs started life as the popular songs of the day and just stayed with us a bit longer. I am not claiming that is the right definition, but it helps me get over what I understand by the term.
I think the "traditional British" music now, is a bit of a hybrid and I have several times suggested here that we do not have the continuity or living folk culture which exists in Ireland or in many circles of American music. The effect of Black Britons on various strands of pop music is enormous and almost certainly permanent. I find it hard to say what the impact of any music is on folk music, because I would argue that our folk music has essentially been cut off from a living tradition for so long.
Interesting question.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Boab
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM

First time I ever saw Johnny Silvo he was on stage resplendent in kilt, singing "the Mingulay Boat Song". A real happy guy, with impeccable taste---he likes Glemorangie.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM

I seriously think the black contribution to English fiddle music in the period 1650-1850 has been underrated. I really hope that in these more enlightened times(and with a bit more money available for research) that some serious research is done on the next few years, on diaries, playbills and other adverts, and we get a bit more of qa picture of what was actually going on in London and Bristol and Liverpool in that time. I think the results might be very interesting. English music changed a lot in that period, and I have a hunch that black people may have had quite a hand in it.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:03 PM

"Well, here's one at least that isn't, Shambles; but my sister-in-law is -- does that make me black by marriage?"

Does that make your sister-in-law white by marriage?

Why can't we all get along? Because some would rather make light of race questions being asked seriously here in the context of folk music of Britain and British North America with Polish jokes, and cutting remarks that trivialize the original poster's legitimate and very interesting question, that's why.

Which is also why, IMO, you don't see many black Mudcatters either side of the pond.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:25 PM

Here's an article I linked to on that other thread Azizi mentioned - The First Black Britons

It's not true that there weren't a fair number of black people in Britain during the slave trade days - but there wasn't any plantation system, or a separated-off culture over the generations. With the end of slavery, descendants of black slaves and freed slaves mingled into the rest of the population. The number of people in England with some black ancestors is probably very high.

Some of the major ports have a different history, in that there have always been a fair number of black sailors over the generations, and as has been noted, the shanty-singing tradition reflects that.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:20 PM

I'm a bit dismayed that there has been much more nonsense and squabbling here than serious reponse to Azizi's original question. She always has something interesting and intelligent to contribute, and seems to be fighting the good fight to keep some wonderful dying traditions alive as long as possible -- as such, she deserves better responses.

Isn't it sad that, in this thread, Martin Gibson contributed one of the most responsive messages? (No offense, MG, old buddy; I realize you're on your best behavior up here above the BS line. Just commenting on the irony.)

My own take on the question is that black folks in Britain, at least before WWII, were present in such small numbers that they never formed a "critical mass," a large enough community with a shared culture -- nothing in any way comparable to the group experience of slaves and ex-slaves (and even free people of color) in the US. Individual players certainly emerged and excelled, but I doubt that people of African descent make an impact *as a group* upon British traditional music at all comparable to what happened in America.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:13 PM

Can't we all get along?

I appreciate the serious responses thus far to my post and hope for some more such responses.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:52 PM

..and would that be Georgian silver
aquired with profits from the Slave trade..???

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:46 PM

"Sorry I don't reply to trolling Guests, particularly when what I have said can be perfectly understood."

.. oohh.. never mind then..

life goes on with or without you..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

Are there any Polish, one-legged, mongoloids in Britain??

Here is the USA we call them Poloroid one-steps--------and we used to be able to see the photos pretty quick. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Jim Ward
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Try this one

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:45 AM

Sorry I don't reply to trolling Guests, particularly when what I have said can be perfectly understood.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:42 AM

Black dancers were working in London during the eartly 1700's, dancing hornpipes. Also playing fiddles. Presumably singing as well, though I can't recall any references. By the nature of things, we should not expect this to be very well documented, in the early years of black entry into Brotain. My guess is that the influence on the music was substantial, particular on urban dance music(eg London, Bristol, Liverpool etc). But I dont think this will ever be proved. I find it intriguing that a very early hornpipe (of the modern 4/4 kind) was called "Salt Fish and Dumplings", and was extremely popular. That doesnt sound like traditional cockney or Lancashire cookery to me!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,littlewhitejohnbull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:32 AM

so these days are we still likely to find
traditional north country english folk clubs
with the sign
"No Irish, Gypsies, or Blacks.."
nailed firmly to heavily barricaded front doors..?????

ok.. that was just fatuous sarcasm..

but seriously, cant really imagine post war rural community folk clubs
being particularly welcoming to anybody not born locally
with fewer than 6 toes on each foot..

..however i'd guess there was a certainly more tolerant and positve
cultural cross-fertilization in big northern city ports
like liverpool..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:23 AM

I also have wondered if there is any of black African decent here and am glad you raised the question Azizi.

Folk music and country music in America alike have been very limited over the years with Afro-Americans. Of course this is not the case with blues.

Odetta, Leon Bibb, Josh White Sr. and Jr. are all that come to mind in folk along with Charlie Pride and perhaps Dobie Gray are about it in country. I don't know why this is so. so many whites dig the blues and emulate the great black blues singers. Why isn't their more blacks into these genres?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

Even a cursory look through Hugill and Terry should suffice to demonstrate the influence of African Americans on the Anglo-American shantying traditions of the 19th Century -- Tom

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:02 AM

Troll alert. Troll alert. BS section please.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:16 AM

oops...
forgot to refresh this page..
--------------------------------------------------
eh... !!??

so whats this "more sinister" which you're so keen
'not to get into' then..???


..seeing as you're the one who's mentioned it..

-------------------------------------------------

was written as direct reply responing to Georgiansilver..
in case anybody cares

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:15 AM

i agree.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,littlewhitejohnbull???
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM

interesting how some 'liberal' folkies are so quick
and so keen to take the piss
and be so fatuously dismissive
of a genuinely interesting and valid question..

so whats there to be so worried and defensive about then..??

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:05 AM

oh.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:03 AM

POTTERY jOHn, It's a new Blair initiative.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:00 AM

waht is free form jazz poettry/ i never heard of it.

Socialist Worker Party?, arent they that bunch of weirdos, that hang around in town selling newspapers?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

Me, Me, mE jOHN. gOD! How did you know? I vote for The Socialist Worker Party too, and believe in free form jazz pottery!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:55 AM

oh.
any one legged, black, lesbian mudcatters in Britain?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:51 AM

Yes YEs jOhn. I only have one leg.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:49 AM

Nadia Cattousse, Cliff Hall, Johnny Silvo, Cy Grant .....
I neither know nor care what the racial background of UK 'Catters is but the UK folk scene I grew up with had the above and more black Britons of Caribbean origin, the whole of the current music scene, especially jazz & blues as well as the "new black" forms of reggae, hiphop, rap, R& B(as they like to call it)are pretty two-tone these days.

RtS

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:48 AM

Are there any one-legged mudcatters posting from Britain? If not, Why Not?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:41 AM

eh... !!??

so whats this "more sinister" which you're so keen
'not to get into' then..???


..seeing as you're the one who's mentioned it..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:31 AM

I'm black.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

Well, here's one at least that isn't, Shambles; but my sister-in-law is -- does that make me black by marriage?

Most of what we call "calypso" was not Trinidadian at all, but Jamaican (anyone catch that BBC R4 programme about The banana boat song?) Steel bands apart, West Indian music has had an enormous impact on popular music here: ska, reggae and what-have-you (I stopped listening when I became a serious folkie in the early 70s). It's still going strong, both in its own right and in its influences.

Steve

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

Azizi, here's my post again from the other thread, giving my take on the apparent lack of Black influence in what we perceive as 'British' folk music:-

"Azizi - re your question about the lack of African influence in British folk music. Just a theory here - perhaps it's because there were comparatively few people of African descent in the UK prior to the 'Afro-Caribbean' influx of the 20th century (comparatively with the US, that is). Whilst the British involved themselves heavily in the slave trade as suppliers of slaves, they didn't import African slaves in large numbers to the UK. Thus it's only from the 20th century onwards that a heavy black influence is being felt in music here, and it's mainly in the hip-hop/rap/soul/R&B fields, and very much from African-American/Afro-Caribbean sources.

Just my thoughts, but I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong!"

Cheers,
S:0)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:26 AM

There would appear to now be Asian influences coming to the fore as a spin off from Bollywood. Back in the 70's I knew an Anglo-Indian guy who sang English traditional, albeit with an Asian twist. For instance he sang Young Sailor Cut Down in his Prime as Young Sepoy Cut Down in his Prime. IMO being a much smaller country than the US we have had to integrate more and absorb other cultures including their musical styles without actually realising it at the time.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:22 AM

There's at least 2 black mudcatters that I know of.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:21 AM

IMHO all have to choose what they want from music and I am sure some black people enjoy Traditional British Folk as much as I enjoy some Reggae and Blues. Not sure why establishing what the influences are, by either to either, is relevant or important. Lets just enjoy whatever we are into without getting into racial influence or in fact anything more sinister..which some people might enjoy doing.
Best wishes to all. Mike.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:04 AM

For all I know ALL of the UK Mudcatters are black. In all truth this would be very difficult to establish - if it was thought worth the effort to try.

Their specific contribution to UK folk music would be equally difficult to establish and it is also probably better not to try too hard but just to value it. Calypso is one area that has certainly directly influenced our folk and popular music.

But all of our music has been and is still influenced by all who have made their homes here and by the music of many cultures who have not. The blues and its earlier African roots has probably had the greatest indirect influence. So we have this African influence coming to us indirectly via North America and with people coming here to live from the West Indies and also directly from Africa.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:33 AM

By the time black people were settling in Britain in significant numbers- during and after WWII- the folk tradition had become moribund. There were small older black communities, notably in seaports such as London, Cardiff and Liverpool, but they perhaps shared the musical culture with the rest of the community. In any case the urban traditions were being subsumed into music hall and other commercial entertainment from the mid 19th century onwards.

Unlike the Americas, we didn't import slaves in large numbers- we sold them to the plantations of the West Indies and the American colonies. And the culture of the few in the UK would have been seen at best as 'exotic'- few enough people recorded any working-class traditions at all, and those that did would not bother with music that didn't accord with their ideas of quaint, ancient, patriotic or whatever their particular agenda was.

Having said which, the best player of harmonica for Irish music I've ever known was Asian- anyone know what Sharad (if I've remembered his name right) is doing? He used to play in Birmingham in the 70s.

Subject: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:10 AM

On another current thread I had asked about the past contributions of Black Britons to British folk music and their current involvement in the folk music scene there. Some posters responded and suggested that this topic merits a seperate thread. So here goes. I'm reposting my original post and hope that those who responded in the other thread will re-post here.

excerpt of post:

..why is it that we {"United Staters"} can point to the very significant contributions of African Americans to our nation's and the world's traditional music, but there doesn't appear to be the same ability to trace people of Africans descent's contributions to traditional music in Britain? Is it because from which ever century that Africans first came on the scene in Britain as slaves or free[d] people they were eventually {before 20th century Caribbean and African immigration} so throughly assimilated into the culture that one can't say what their contribution was?

end of re-post

Also, here are somewhat related questions:

Aren't there any Black people from Britain posting on Mudcat? If not, why not? And for that matter, surely I can't be the only African American or person of African descent posting here... Where are the "folks" from the Caribbean, Canada, and other European countries besides Britan? And there's Black folks living other places...

Mudcat is a treasure trove of information on multiple genres of Black music. Surely I'm not the only Black person who happened onto or was led to this website.

In the context of sharing information about one's music experiences,and insights on historical examples, it seems to me that declaring one's race has value.

So to any Black folks who've been "passing" here on Mudcat, I urge you to declare yourselves and post on!