8 String Bass

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Wrinkles
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM

My thanks to all for the input, it's been much appreciated ;-)

I don't build from scratch but modify (or butcher if one is unkind) and revitalise old instruments collected cheaply. I'm using an old French (Egmond) Dreadnought 12 string as the basis here so I've no choice over things like scale length or which end the tuners are sited.

After removing the old rusted machine heads and cracked bridge and sanding the wood back to base, although the frets themselves were OK except for fret zero, somehow it just told me it wanted to be an 8 string acoustic bass ;-)

My solution to the intonation problem is to use a "twin" bridge, as if there was one bridge for the lows and a second for the octaves. Each "bridge" will be crenelated to let the other set pass, although it will actually be one solid piece of wood. "Slant" will be the same for both of course, but I'll have a solid one peice bridge; which is what I'm after. I think these transmit sound better than individually adjustable bridges. It's a compromise I know, but I think it'll sound OK and it'll be more elegant than other solutions.

As for the tailpiece, well, none of the examples for 8-string basses I found on the web had the string order I'm after (a hole that lets bronze Bass Sting through but traps a Bass String ball-end would let a normal size ball end right through!). I'll probably fabricate one out of a decent gauge of brass sheet.

Wrinkles (Barbara)

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Grab
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:09 PM

FWIW, I've just been reading a mandolin-building book (quick plug for "The Mandolin Manual" by John Troughton - I think it's worth reading if you're a novice) and they describe a mando-bass with 4 courses of *unison* strings. No plans, but confirmation that such a critter exists. An alternative arrangement, perhaps?

One thought with the headstock - could you move the tuners to the body and use a headless design? May be easier to get it balanced properly.

One question though - how feasible is this thing to play? Bass strings are thick enough anyway, so playing two at once seems a bit of a challenge! :-) Unless you have a wide fingerboard and mostly play with the pads of your fingers.

Graham.

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM

ok.. i had nothing better [as much fun] to do on a wet monday afternoon



Bridge, tuning, and intonation isues for 12 string basses
[ relevant read for this thread ?]:

http://www.12stringbass.net/ThreeOctaves.htm


12 string bass sound samples:


http://www.12stringbass.net/ThreeOctaves.htm


Hagstrom 8 string bass sound samples
[schroll down page]:

http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/hag8.php


15 and 18 string basses:

http://www.12stringbass.net/custom15.htm
have fun

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

You might also consider shortening the scale length a bit to accommodate the fat and skinny strings both. The 30" scale common to many short scale basses might work as a compromise, but as much as I like 34" generally, 32" might be worth a try. Shorter scale will mean less troubles for the top likely. Mooh.

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:56 PM

I would definitely go with a tailpiece and adjustable bridge of some sort. A pin-type bridge would just be asking for trouble, both from structural and intonational standpoints. The intonation problems inherent in 12-string guitars will probably be compounded on an 8-string bass.


(Wrinkles doubtlessly needs no explanation of the "12-string intonation problem", but just in case there's a casual reader or two out there... A thicker a guitar string needs to be a little longer than its thinner neighbor for proper intonation. That's why guitar saddles are slanted. When two strings of very different thicknesses are used in a course and they are the same length, they will get progressively out of tune with each other as you go up the neck. The only solution is to adjust the length of each string individually.)

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:41 PM

oops..

i meant baritone electric octave mandola bridge..

i hope my project works out well without too many intonation problems
cos i'm using a vintage archtop guitar body

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM

Scaller and ABM 8 string bass bridge listed here

http://www.internetmusicsupply.com/a0033.HTM

Hip shot also produced 8 string bridges.

it seems due to guitar fashions, easier to find
5 and 7 string bridges these days..
but thorough internet search and ebay should turn up something eventually.

Some older style bridges have multiple grooves cut into the string block
that would provide compromised intonation spacings for a double string course..
eg. i found a vintage 60's new old stock Baldwin archtop bass bridge
which i intend using as a tenor electri mandola bridge when i find a suitable tailpiece requiring least amount of modification..

keep searching..
and good luck

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:38 AM

great idea..

Previous discussions with 8 string electric bass owners
suggest you could expect almost Grand Piano like string tones
from the instrument..
and alternative tuning potential one of the deepest and scariest
mandolas on the planet..

your reasoning for string course reversal sounds fine
for your personal requirements.

But for bridge i'd seriously suggest a fully adjustable
electic bass bridge, with independant intonation adjustment
for each of the 8 strings;
if you can locate one.
Anchored to a solid block of wood under the soundboard.

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM

But you'll need to make up your mind because it'll affect the order of tuning machines, assuming you use guitar ones for the octaves. Whatever you do, get some modern light weight machines, that'll be one heavy headstock otherwise. Mooh.

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:04 AM

The idea that you want your plucking direction to move from the thinner octave string to the heavier standard string makes sense. You don't want the standard string blocking contact with the octave string. So, the string order then depends on your playing style. If you're one of those anchor-the-thumb-and-pick-with-the-fingers bassists you'd want all four courses set up in "reverse order". If you play with a flatpick using mainly downstrokes, you'd want all four courses in "standard order". If you play thumb-and-fingers you'd want the thumb-picked courses in "standard order" and the finger-picked courses in "reverse order". If you play with a flatpick and use a pretty equal mix of downstrokes and upstrokes, you'll never get the thing to sound right and should stick with a conventional bass.

Subject: RE: 8 String Bass
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:45 AM

There are several manufacturers of 8 string basses (Hamer for one). Why don't you ask them what tailpiece they're using or if they'd supply one? Also try Luthiers Mercantile and Stew-Mac. Look into John Paul Jones, ex of Led Zeppelin, he plays one too.

As for string order, my gut tells me to arrange them so that the right hand finger strikes the octave one first, not because you want to hear it that way but because the path of the finger will then contact the larger string second with less chance of missing one of the strings. However, I don't think that's the norm, and flatpick styles might change that logic.

Good luck!

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: 8 String Bass: comments
From: Wrinkles
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:44 AM

I'm making an 8 string acoustic bass guitar; that's 4 courses in octaves.

Normally (eg; on a 12 string) the octave string is physically above the main one - which is OK if you use a pick downwards because you hit both strings. But if your style is to pluck upwards with your 1st finger, unless you're pretty forceful, you'd only hit the low string of the pair, the thinner octave not actually being plucked directly but struck by the low string instead and getting a softer "ring" to it.

I first noticed this problem when fingerpicking 12 strings. The E and A sounded OK - they were plucked by the downward action of the thumb, but the D and G pairs plucked upwards by the fingers often sounded like single strings, but this never happened when using a pick.

My idea is to reverse the low/high order and have the octave string physically below the low string so that both are struck when plucking upwards with the finger.

So my first question to Mudcatters, apart that is from inviting comments on the whole notion of an 8 string accoustic bass; is does anyone see a flaw in the logic of string placement?

My second question is related to the build. I'm having problems sourcing a tailpiece. Does anyone know where I could get a "blank" tailpiece I could drill out to my requirements, or from whom I could order one fabricated?

Wrinkles (Barbara)