Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM

It's all over now folks. The Mudcat powers that be have decided the Big John wins the pissing contest. You can all go home now.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:42 PM

well, THAT'S clear enough!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,G***t
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:11 PM

* t***k i*s f*****r t* a*****k o*t a*l w****s

e****t f*r t*e fucking s***r w***s

y*u o*d arse h***s

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:05 PM

Smat filters are filters that aren't very sma*t.
I'm not very sma*t, either. Somebody cited George Carlin's 7 deadly words as the following:

sh*t p*ss c*ck c*nt c*cksucker motherf*cker and t*ts

-is that a correct list?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:47 PM

Wot are smat filters?

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Ferrara
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 04:02 PM

Blissfully I. asks Anyway, how does asterixing out letters in a word render it less offensive? It's still recognisable....f**k, s**t, p**s....?

Simple. You have to stop and think about it (I do, anyway) to get the whole word. It doesn't hit you in the eye so to speak. So if you're not interested your eye can just move over it and away with no particular emotional reaction. And IMO the shock and (perceived) hostility factors are WAY lower in the versions with asterisks.

Plus the asterisks presumably won't trigger the sm*t filters.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

If I were John, I would think it a hoot to respond, "Fuck you. Fuck all you motherfuckers."

Or maybe, "F**k you. F**k all you motherf**kers."

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM

It would be good to hear from John Mehlberg at this stage. He put up this thread to gather objections - and he has. What is he going to do about them?

Will he for example choose to refrain from including profane words in titles, so as to avoid blocking 'catters accessing from work, libraries and generally systems with profanity filters?

John - over to you.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:31 PM

A female, here, siding with profanity...

Anyway, how does asterixing out letters in a word render it less offensive? It's still recognisable....f**k, s**t, p**s....?

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:26 PM

(it's funny I have ended up in this position...if John Mehlberg were complaining that his SITE were being censored...even with a warning label, I'd be in the forefront defending him!)

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:25 PM

I really don't like smutty songs, and I don't sing them. However, they and naughty children's songs are just about the only things that are still transmitted by the "folk process." Almost all other aspects of our culture are printed, broadcasted, and copyrighted. So, if you want to study the folk process in our current culture, ya gotta study dirty ditties.

That being the case, I think we should all think of "The Motherfuckers' Ball" as a sacred song.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM

if those who argue for TOTAL openness and research cannot tell the difference between songs like "The Good Ship Venus" ,"Charlotte, the Harlot", "The Winnepeg Whore" and others which are interesting and well-crafted (and 'about' something) and the purely purile ditties under discussion, then I fear for the state of scholarship.

The examples I mention have plenty of explicit words IN them, but are way more than just an excuse to bellow dirty words. If you think the ditties John is currently 'researching' need preserving also, fine...I have no objection. Put them in the list as examples, but don't kid yourself that you will learn much about the history of bawdy songs by finding out that someone at BYU in 1963 also sang dirty words...(oh...wait...maybe if it was BYU, it might be important..*grin*)

I really find this statement by John Mehlberg to be sorta funny..." If I were to dash "---" expurgate the objectionable words, then there is a good chance I will never get to talk with the people who know this song."
1)such a tragedy!
2)oh, I suspect they'll find you---Google will lead them to your door!
3)and if Mudcat were NOT available? Go to any Hashers site and ask where they got their songs!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

Who's the troll now????

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,observer
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

GUEST at 02:37 said:

"I remain unconvinced of the importance of anything he has posted either here or at his website."

That's not surprising. Most people with IQ's as low as yours appears to be (judging from the infantile level of your posts) would undoubtedly feel the same.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:41 PM

Believe me ,observer , I won't be going anywhere.

Anyone who knows me knows how rarely I get involved in contraversy.

In this instance I happened to feel very strongly about what was being presented. This vulgar thread title was one too many IMO.
I was tolerant of Mr Mehlberg when he posted earlier in the week although I was very happy to see the thread that offended me disappear .
Could it be that because Mr Mehlberg got away with it last time , that he took our silence as aquiescence?
He knew this thread would offend some people but went ahead anyway.

This problem is not of my making but of his.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:37 PM

"...that fact, if no other, makes them really, really, important for academic researchers."

In what way? Obscurity doesn't make something important. Because it is in the oral tradition doesn't even make a song important. Especially songs like this, which are a dime a dozen.

But hey--if you can explain why this guy's collection of dirty ditties is so important to humanity that academics should spend their time and resources studying it, more power to ya. I remain unconvinced of the importance of anything he has posted either here or at his website.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,observer
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

To nutty and others of his/her ilk:

I will agree with you when you can provide a definition for "traditional" and "folk music" that everyone who posts on Mudcat or any other folk music site can agree on.

Until that time, if you don't like it here start your own site with the rules you want.

Me? I love this place - I'm staying!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM

My point is simply that, like it or not, these "objectionable" songs are pretty much the only songs that we have anymore that only exist, and are only transmitted, in the oral tradition-if you've ever heard this song, it is because you were there in the room when it was sung--that fact, if no other, makes them really, really, important for academic researchers.

You may be completely disgusted by material that some gastroenterologists study, but that doensn't mean that the work isn't important--

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:19 PM

Guest - go crawl back under your stone until you can find a name for yourself, eh?

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:15 PM

I was raised in an era...

With all due respec' Cap'n, we hain't allus old as... ;-)

Interesting that those guys came from large cities, and many of them were foul mouthed, homophobic, anti semetic racists. By and large, the country boys were more careful about their language.

A very interesting statement. Note that kendall doesn't claim that the country boys were any better than their urban counterparts, just more careful abouty their language... No dig at kendall intended, but if you stop & think about it, this is a fair indicator of human nature on more than one level.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM

If these words in thread titles (and elsewhere on our forum) result in even machine automatically blocking folk from access to The Mudcat - it is enough reason not to do it yourself.

It is not enough to PREVENT (in any way, except by setting the example) others from doing it.

However The idea of starting a thread and having a title (especially on the music-related section) that objects to another poster by name and invites others to make personal judgements - is perhaps just as serious and this practice should perhaps be discouraged.

In fact it would be a good idea to try and avoid publicly making any personal judgements - about or to fellow posters. Most of us love to judge and gossip about others - very few of us like to judged and gossiped about..........

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for clarifying for me that this is really a pissing contest between the boys, there Raedwulf. Yay for you too!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:58 PM

Yay Joe! Who, despite a number of attacks on him, despite my own (expressed) opinion of him being a bit soft, I cannot see a better alternative to! (Joe will now duly cringe at the thought of winning, not least at being merely least worst option! ;-) )

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:52 PM

Pornography:

Obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, especially those having little or no artistic merit.

(These supposedly "traditional songs" meet this criteria quite well.)

But do they, Lin? The killing flaw in your argument is "artistic". I am one of those whose 'artistic' appreciation extends as far as "I may not know anything about art, but I know a good picture when I see one!" For example, I can respect the artistic ability of Picasso. I know that he could paint & draw with a very high degree of skill. On the other hand, I find the work he is famous for extremely ugly. If that's art, I don't want any.

Nevertheless, I would not dispute his right to be called an artist. Then there's Tracy Emin. According to modern art appreciation, I am probably a caveman, a philistine, a... whatever... Because, I'm sorry, I cannot see any any artistic merit in someone's unmade bed. No matter that she's had an abortion, no matter what pretentious claptrap she spouts to justify said unmade bed. Still, I can acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, I'm missing something... So who are you to dismiss someone else's judgement as having "little or no artistic merit"?

As someone who has written the odd piece of doggerel (be it masquerading as lyric or poetry), as someone who is both musician & storyteller, I can look at a bawdy song & may appreciate the technical aspects of it. I might think the content is crap, but equally I might still see merit in the wordplay; or the rhythm, alliteration, whatever it may be. No way do I get the right to dismiss a song as "not traditional", "pornographic, not bawdy", however you please.

If John thinks he can get genuine & worthwhile input here, then good luck to him. If I feel disgusted by it... that's my problem, not his. If you're so avid that John can be contacted via his own site, then contact him via his own site to relay your personal disgust. If enough others do the same, he seems inteligent enough to get the point. Otherwise...

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:13 PM

Gee, I thought Joe was quite consistent. It's just that people don't understand him. As kendall says, Joe doesn't like personal attacks. Martin Gibson still doesn't understand that, and still thinks he's being censored for crude language. Many of his personal attacks involve crude language, but it's his combat that gets him censored.

And Joe does remove personal attacks when he finds them, but doesn't go out of his way to look for things to censor. Joe is here for the music.

Joe doesn't usually like foul language, and doesn't use anything stronger than "shit" in his everyday speech, but he objects far more strongly to the euphemizing of said foul language. If Joe is quoting somebody who says "fuck," Joe says "fuck."

Joe has an extremely strong objection to the sanitizing of folk music, especially in a folk music forum. He may find rugby songs distasteful, but he will fight to ensure that they continue to exist.

Joe is hesitant to do any sort of censorship at all, but he knows it has to be done at times. He does delete foul language from thread titles when it appears to be there simply to provoke people - but not when it serves a legitimate purpose like identifying a song by title.

But in this circumstance, Joe is in a quandry, and is open to discussion. I'd like to see John Mehlburg come up with a solution - one that doesn't compromise our study of folk music too extremely.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:45 AM

Thanks to George Carlin for the 7 deadly words...sh*t p*ss c*ck c*nt c*cksucker motherf*cker and t*ts! Th*re. I f*el so m*ch b*tter!


But nevermind the sexual references.

What really annosy me is all those contractions!
All those apostrophes! apostrophies? apostrophe's?
Arghh...there's another one!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: kendall
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:58 AM

Joe doesn't like personal attacks. I don't like personal attacks. Most of us don't like personal attacks. Adjust.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:38 AM

I have no strong objections to any words in thread names per se. But I have been denied access to this site in my workplace for over 3 years now because of the use of certain words in thread titles. Joe says in his initial post on this thread that he doesn't regard this as much of a problem. However it is to me. I would say that this will become more of a problem as employers, libraries etc become more conscious of the risk of being held responsible for innapropriate content held on their computers. These filters are not intended to keep out sites such as Mudcat per se, but the use of words conisered profane will lead to many filters denying access to the site.

So a bit of consideration for others who want to use the site would not go amiss. And if we are all adults we shouldn't need censorship - just behave responsibly.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:15 AM

Guest 9:41, John appears to be new to the people who don't recognize him though, so that makes him a newbie in their eyes, doesn't it? Stupid technicalities not withstanding, of course. Here is John's posting history.

Yes, technically he has been posting since last July. However, nearly every single one of his posts to this forum involves the sexist machismo songs of the good ole boys. Perhaps he chose to raise the ante this week by posting with thread titles containing the 'naughty words' to draw attention to himself?

The first thing I did when I saw his thread titles this week was click on his name to see what his posting history was here. It is nearly exclusively with obscene sexist material.

Yawn. Why do any of you give a shit? The guy is obviously obsessed with hanging onto his penis with one hand, while he posts sexually explicit stuff with the other.

Welcome to the internet.

"Legitimate research" my ass.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:41 AM

BTW guest - hate to shoot your theory out of the water but John is not a particularly new poster.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Dani
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

I concur with what Rita said. Dash the titles, adults can go where they want and read and post what they want, libraries and patrons are happy, kids are 'safe', sure!

Dani

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:21 AM

Something Joe is very consistent with, is the posting of his name and the willingness to identify himself with his posts. Anonymous cowards who spit venom here are not always afforded that respect.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

One thing is for sure. The hostility factor towards John would be much lower had he not been a newbie to a forum that despises newbies who post controversial things. Don't want to rock that complacency boat.

I am not all offended by the use of the 'naughty words'. But I'm deeply offended by the sexist nature of these crap songs, and can't for the life of me figure out why anyone thinks they are so valuable they must be "preserved". Ditto for racist crap songs.

However, the Mudcat impulse to censor that which 3 people don't like offends me even more. But it doesn't matter, because this place has an arbitrary censor in Joe Offer, who is so bloody inconsistent about the application of his personal censorship rules, it can make your head spin watching what he deletes, and what he doesn't.

If it makes you feel any better John, I too have been censored here for using the word fuck in a thread title. I was censored because I am an anon poster. The cries for you to be censored are because you are a newcomer. If you were "one of the gang" people would be defending your right to post here, instead of yelling at you to go home to your website, and stop offending them and their friends' dainty sensibilities.

As usual, Joe Offer is deciding not to censor that which he has previously censored. But Joe is a sexist jerk, even though he is quite beloved here in the forum. I'm guessing you will be safe enough to post here. But why the fuck would you want to come here for legitimate research is beyond me. This isn't much of a resource, and is rarely used by legitimate scholars anymore. Some here claim it has been used as such in the past, but I remain unconvinced about that. The DT is a bloody mess of a database, and the people here are really nothing more than a bunch of opinionated amateurs, posing as the real deal.

Good luck with your research here in Mudcat into the crap songs traditions.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: kendall
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:12 AM

What's important here is context and intent. I was raised in an era where people did not use that kind of language out of respect to others peoples sensibilities. Now, it seems like no one cares about anyone but themselves, they have no respect for anyone INCLUDING themselves.
I never heard such language until I went into the service at the age of 19; where I listened to other servicemen use the most foul language at each other, and thought, "Someone is about to get hurt" but as it turned out they were just trying to gross each other out. Teenagers!
Interesting that those guys came from large cities, and many of them were foul mouthed, homophobic, anti semetic racists. By and large, the country boys were more careful about their language.
On the other hand, I learned a lot of new words in those 4 years.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:28 AM

As I said - context is all. One can be profane without using profane words ("go forth and multiply"), and one can use profane words without intending offence ("I fucked this up").

We don't disagree, Kendall, because it is indeed the context that reveals the intent behind the use of the word. Bad intent=Bad use of word.

Many here are suspicious of John's intent in using the full words in the title. And many - like me - find seeing such words in the title distasteful. However, I am willing to accept the word of some 'catters here who seem to know John's work better and vouch for the sincerity of his intentions; and so I grin and bear it.

I agree with what someone said on the other (Breezy's) thread - I think it was Clinton: I believe in freedom of speech, also for those things I don't like hearing.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Ferrara
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:22 AM

Some words are used just to offend others so it's not the word itself, it's the intent. Yup. John, if your intent is to do research you don't need to use "the words" in the thread titles. You can certainly abbreviate, use dashes, etc.

(You could do that as a courtesy, even if it feels "hypocritical" to you. Courtesy and civility are often necessarily a bit hypocritical.)

As I've said above I like the fact that you're doing this research and Mudcat is a good, appropriate resource. But if you have a different (additional?) intent, I wish you wouldn't use Mudcat as the place to do it. ... Sigh.... Not that that ever stopped anybody before....

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:14 AM

Kendall: I haave the greatest respects for your posts, but I cant agree with that one. There is a complete and total difference between saying "Greg, stop talking rubbish, motherfucker", and saying "Excuse me, Greg, but did you ever hear a song called the Motherfucker's Ball in your rugger playing days?" The former remark should certainly be removed from Mudcat on grounds of offensiveness; the latter, I have no problem with whatsoever, I think that is exactly what a folk music forum is for.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: kendall
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:04 AM

...words are just words. NO, too simple. Some words are used just to offend others so it's not the word itself, it's the intent. The use of such words shows a profound need to dis respect others, and that is not right. Any teen age boy can spout foul language, it doesn't require an IQ over 60.

Old Maine proverb, PROFANITY IS THE EFFORT OF A FEEBLE MIND TO EXPRESS ITSELF.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM

One of the things about the folk process is that it acts as a filter. That which is adopted survives, and that which is not adopted fails to survive. After some thought it seems to me that the sole interest of this song lies in its attempt to cram as much "shocking" matter into a short space as possible. That may mean it is a prime candidate for non-survival. I wouldn't sing it, it just looks like a totally crap song, to me.

By way of contrast, "The good ship Venus" is widely thought to have literary merit.

Also by way of contrast, the BNP folk song - good song, some currently unacceptable content.

After some thought, and on the other hand, it seems to me that a historian must record not only that which seems great and good at the time of collection, but everything, because we cannot predict the future, and that which seems of no importance or merit now may turn out to be not only to be important, but acceptable and even meritorious in the future.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:58 AM

Here's my two cents' worth:

From the Random House Dictionary:

Pornography:

Obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, especially those having little or no artistic merit.

(These supposedly "traditional songs" meet this criteria quite well.)


Bawdy:
        adjective:
        1.        Indecent; lewd; obscene: another of his bawdy stories.

        noun:
        2.        Coarse or indecent talk or writing; bawdry; bawdiness; a collection of Elizabethan bawdry.

        Synonyms:
        lascivious, salacious, prurient, earthy, risque, ribald, coarse, licentious, raunchy

(Please note: "Bawdy" is NOT synonymous with pornography.)


Joe: here's your word. I don't agree that this material qualifies as raunchy, either.

Raunchy:
        1.        Vulgar or smutty; crude; earthy; obscene: a raunchy joke.
        2.        dirty; slovenly; grubby.
        3.        lecherous


I am once again sad to see our language debased. I wholeheartedly agree with Nutty, that if John wants to "research" this kind of smut, he should certainly be allowed to: on his own site, to which he is quite capable of providing a link.

Mark me disgusted.

Lin

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:05 PM

Re: "The BAD WORD Ball"

I had a friend who taught in Nova Scotia. He had a student who was years behind in reading ability. Long story short, the student began to read because my buddy told him to read the words he knew and when he got to a word he didn't, to say, "BIG WORD". So often the reading would go "What kind of BIG WORD can we come up with, that won't make us look like a bunch of BIG WORD old BIG WORD? My friend would help him with the various BIG WORDS and eventually the kid's reading level improved.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM

Breezy, why'd you have to go and start a second thread on this subject? I said all sorts of profound things in this thread, and then you go and start another one so people won't be exposed to the worthwhile discussion that has already gone on. It seems to be a common disease amongst Mudcatters. They seem to think that if one thread covers the subject well, TWO will be that much better.

I tend to be on the "free expression" side of the argument, despite what certain people may think of me. I suppose I can see the concerns of those who feel uncomfortable with raunchy stuff on the Forum menu, and I can see where it might draw additional stuff that is just plain trash. I've been thinking of working up a PermaThread to index John's threads, and I suppose the index could have the true names of the songs and the threads something else - but hotdamn, it sure sounds Victorian.

And I don't find retitling a thread to "M-----F-----" to be a suitable compromise. That's just prudish. Still, it's a worthwhile question, and it would be nice to come up with a good compromise.

What have they done at rec.music.folk or Ballad-L??? What kind of solution can we come up with, that won't make us look like a bunch of prudish old ninnies?

-Joe Offer-

P.S. I asked my wife and mother-in-law about this at dinner - they tend to be on the "ninny" side, I guess.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Ferrara
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:13 PM

If I were to dash "---" expurgate the objectionable words, then there is a good chance I will never get to talk with the people who know this song. That's silly. No one missed the point of this thread, in spite of the dashes.

I strongly dislike the open spelling of explicitly "obscene" words in thread titles. I don't really care what language is used inside the thread as long as people are warned about what they're getting into. I'm enjoying John's inquiries into bawdy ditties and songs actually. But not his thread titles. Sorry, John.

The thing is, using those words in the presence of people who will find them objectionable is often a form of hostility and to me it feels like hostility -- and it feels ugly -- when I read them in thread titles.

I do feel that people who will find the words objectionable should have the option not to see them in the Forum contents, but should have some warning that the thread will contain explicit language.

I also feel that those people should stay away from reading the threads and not complain about what's inside. John does issue a warning.

I would prefer a tiny bit of censorship, i.e. dashes used in thread titles. I don't think it's a big restriction of free speech to require the titles of some threads to be somewhat milder than the contents.

Rita F

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM

Whaddaya know -- the library DID filter out f u c k and s h i t.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:47 PM

Another 'Catter of the female persuasion checking in...

I agree with everything Clinton Hammond said here! Words is words.

Some words are meant to be offensive to those with more fragile sensibilities... but my feeling is that "bad" words lose their power when used in bawdy songs. The words are over-used in the songs, people laugh when they sing along with the words, and the tension is released. The only people who are left offended are those who refuse to accept such a song as a tension-relieving device and instead insist that the song promotes "unacceptable" behavior (in other words, they make the choice to allow themselves to be equally offended at the behavior of saying/singing the words as they are offended at the behavior of committing an act such as copulating with one's mother).

I was raised by some easily-offended people (by fundamentalist Christians -- augh!!). So I was taught to react to "bad" words with disgust and to substitute words that were somehow "less bad" (heck instead of hell, shoot instead of    , darn instead of damn, etc.) even though the definition of each "less bad" word was the same as the "bad" word. But when I grew up and started thinking for myself, I made a conscious decision not to do that anymore. Of course, the result was that I offended those of my friends whose sensibilities were more fragile than mine, and I had to make another conscious decision to avoid using certain words in certain situations.

The debate here seems to be whether THIS situation (the Mudcat Forum's threads page) is one in which we need to concern ourselves with others' fragile sensibilities, and to what extent. In the case of John Melberg's thread title, John didn't CALL anyone a mother    er in his thread title; his thread title simply listed the name of a song that has the word "mother    er" in it. To me, that makes a huge difference. To me, it means that John's intention is to discuss what he considers to be a traditional folk song, and not to be offensive. So I don't see the word as having the power to offend in this case. IMO, those who allow themselves to be offended at seeing the title of a song up for discussion need to learn to skim over thread titles in which they have no interest. (And those who worry about their children reading "bad" words in the titles of songs up for discussion at Mudcat need to monitor their childrens' internet activity and have a discussion with them about not giving power to "bad" words.)

Furthermore, if John did not use the entire word "mother    er" but instead inserted hyphens as he has in this thread's title, would it not be more difficult for people interested in the song to find his thread with a Forum Search? Don't you need the actual title of the song as a proper keyword for such a search?

SharonA

P.S. -- I am accessing Mudcat today from a public library in the US, and the word in question was not filtered out by the library computer's filters, nor did I have any problems opening www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm or any other Mudcat page. I often use library computers, and I find that many potentially-offensive words in my OUTGOING email messages are filtered out (including "girl", for whatever reason). Now, let's see if I can post THIS message without any words being filtered out! Here goes...

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:06 PM

I should have been clearer in my previous post, perhaps: I support John's right to publish this (and the other) thread. I find the title offensive, but I would not want it censored; I am a big boy and I don't have to read the lyrics if I don't want to.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:53 PM

Becky...some are merely debating whether his USE of 'traditional' is appropriate. If you just state "I use a BROAD definition" then you are defining the rules to suit yourself..pretty soon, you can just define anything as 'trad', and the definition loses its meaning.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:47 PM

What Malcolm said...

And, to boot, since when must Mudcat discussions be limited to purely traditional song?? That argument seems entirely beside the point here.

~ Becky in Tucson
a Mudcatter of the female pursuasion

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM

gee, greg....I don't consider myself to be "having a go at John"...I am NOT advocating censorship, but merely judicious respect for taste. It is possible to accomplish his 'research' without causing discomfort to others.

(I have posted jokes on Mudcat which require the use of 'fuck' as part of their punch...but I don't start threads entitled "Fuck jokes". )

We have mostly stayed away from totally explicit thread titles for 9 years...but if John is going to 'research' many (debatably) 'traditional' bawdy songs with the absolutely extreme limits of cultural language, it will change the complexion of this place a bit, I'd think. I don't object to having some risque language buried IN the threads for those who want to look...but....

"Tell me a word
You've often heard,
Yet it makes you squint
If you see it in print."
(from memory...forget who)

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

As I said in the other thread.................

'I just find it very interesting that you can get away with anything under the assertion that its 'research' and, sadly, people will
believe and support you.'

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:59 PM

Traditional is John's description of the song.

The basis of my argument is that this is not and never could be traditional ... It's a piece of 50/60's smut. The type that was all the rage when I was a teenager.

It doesn't have the artistry of Tom Lehrer or Paddy Roberts.

My local Rugby Club had annual song competitions to see who could write the most disgusting 'folk' song, which might have seemed funny after 6 or more pints but in the cold light of day was better forgotten.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM

Shouldn't this be combined with the "left nut" thread? I don't know which MF we are talking about, but if he has trouble with his ball, then shouldn't this be combined with the "left nut" thread? Senseless duplication.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

John is a perfectly legitimate researcher, specialising in bawdy songs and related material. His website is at http://www.immortalia.com/. Among the resources there are some rather hard-to-find 18th and 19th century texts which he has put a lot of time and effort into making available; together with other things of considerable use and interest to the general student of folksong.

I don't share his interest in the scatological and pornographic end of folksong, but the fact remains that it is a legitimate field of study, and one of the few aspects of tradition that shows no sign of fading away. Whether or not a particular song may be considered "traditional" in itself is beside the point in this context (they are usually parodies of other songs in any case); the genre, if you like, is the tradition.

I think we can mostly accept that folksong isn't necessarily pretty; it can be quite distasteful, especially when fuelled by morbidly high testosterone levels. Some of the IRA songs posted here are pretty unpleasant, for instance, with their swaggering, posturing, gleeful accounts of butchery. They, too, are legitimate subjects for study; though I wouldn't care to hear them sung any more than I'd enjoy the kind of thing John is interested in.

Calls for censorship on the grounds of personal taste are always worrying, but particularly so when they come from people who are otherwise quite sensible. Incidentally, I wonder how many of the people who are objecting to John's threads have in the past criticised early 20th century collectors like Sharp and Baring-Gould for "bowdlerising" songs? That bowdlerisation was made necessary by people much like those who are currently complaining. The principal is exactly the same.

The Mudcat (and the internet in general) is not a children's playground. Those who worry about what their children may stumble across should take responsibility and supervise their access.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

I am totally appalled that any Mudcatter could object to what John Mehlberg posts here. I expect a bit of flak from some people, but to find Bill D on this thread having a go at John saddens me. Bill has a wonderful library of song books, and I love him to bits because of it. If we are here, surely we like research into traditional folksong? OK, we may not like the content of some traditional songs, but that is our own value judgement. Surely serious discussion of bawdy song should be welcome here. So, some songs contain the word "fuck". Is this really startling to anyone here?
   If we can put up with endless discussions of the war in Iraq, Spaw's farts, JOhn of Hull's humour and other digressions, surely we can accommodate actual discussion of actual traditional song?

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

Sorry - false start ...... I'll start again

This kind of material also became popular in Britain in private sport and drinking establishments in the 60's and 70's. I own a double album of the 'Jock Strapp Emsemble' regaling us with these gems but I've never ever heard one sung in a folk club , if they had been the landlord would have closed the club down.

Also I can never consider any song that was written in my lifetime to be traditional.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM

There is no single musical "tradition" ~ there are lots of them, some less ancient than others, but all consisiting of songs (and stories, and dances, etc. etc) that are commonly known by most or all members of some community.

No matter how expert one may be regarding one or more of these traditions, he/she will not necessarily be familiar with every song in some other tradition.

I'm deeply involved in several different local musical traditions here in New Orleans about which I'm sure no one else among y'all Mudcatters knows or cares a thing. So what? John the bawdy-song guy is into a tradition well-known primarily to rugby players and hash-house harriers. In the same way that many trad-jazz junkies, hashers, and/or ruggers may be unfamiliar with sea chanties and Child ballads, it only stands to reason that relatively few mainstream folkies will be familiar with the dirty lyrics to "Darktown Strutters' Ball."

Also: those who are not familiar with a given genre may or may not be interested in learning something new about a field with which they are only slighly familiar. Different strokes for different folks, right? I only open about 1/3 to 1/2 of the discussions here, because I know I won't be interested in everything. The threads I do read are about equally divided between stuff concering my most passionate interests (e.g., blues, old and new) and other discussions of topics about which I know nothing, but which intrigue and/or amuse me (e.g., Morris dancing).

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:54 PM

I'm with Clinton on this one...as I said in the prtevious example, I would prefer to NOT have the full word in the thread title.

It's awkward...I know that research is research...but like El Gerco says, it's gratuitously taseless and crude, rather like most things done by "Hashers", who get together to drink and bellow obscene, stupid lyrics. I, myself, sing some quite bawdy songs, but I chooose those with some clever writing or story line.

I DO find myself wondering why the only songs John M. needs to 'research' here at Mudcat are the grossest ones...and I suspect that very little important historical 'data' needs to be discovered about this particular type of song.

I own most of the commercially available books on bawdy songs and limericks, but I don't splash them in places where the content is not welcome by all.

As I said last time...I do NOT see why, since John has a website, a more discrete request could not be linked to the lyrics on HIS site, with a request for more information...then, those who know something could email Jonn directly.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:47 PM

Odd isn't it, that threads like this never seem to attract much attention from the ladies, isn't it?

Just coincidence, I suppose.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Cool Beans
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM

Kendall, you raise a most provocative issue, perhaps suited for a thread all its own: At what point does folk, a literary or musical work unattributable to any identified creator(s), become traditional? 60 years? 59? 40?
For instance, to choose something in questionable taste, take the song about Hitler having only big ball, to the tune of "The Col. Bogey March," which had to have been written in the 1940s. Unless we know its authorship, I'd call it folklore.
Are songs of unknown origin from World War II old enough now to be considered traditional? At some point that song was new: folklore but not traditional.
How do we define traditional? Anything that existed before the age of recording whose authorship is unknown?

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:11 PM

I'm not making a judgement, it's just that I've deeply involved in tradition music for 60 years but I have never heard this gem.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:18 PM

" Thread TITLES... should be inoffensive to all"

Nothing is inoffensive to everyone...

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

" Thats all I ask for."

One the same page though, it's not MY web site, or yours... we can ask... but we also gotta accept that the answer is possibly gonna be 'no'

Myself, I don't really care enough one way or the other...   I think 'cleaner' thread titles reflects better on Mudcat... But if a song title has a 'bad' word in it, and one wants to discuss that song, I won't be diddled if you don't euphemize the title...

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM

John is always very careful to include his standard "boilerplate" disclaimer in the intial message of every thread he starts.

His research is undeniably legitimate. I find it interesting and amusing, while others probably do not ~ of course, they don't have to look. Indeed, they're given plenty of warning; John really bends over backwards to preclude giving offense or prompting objections.

Thread TITLES, I will concede, should be inoffensive to all, since they're on display even to those who choose not to open a particular thread. However, they need to be clear enough to indicate what's in there, as a guide to those who wish to stay out as well as to those who might be interested.

In other words, the word "motherfucker" should not have been completely spelled out in the title, but I don't know what more John could possibly do than to omit a few letters [e.g., everything between the "f" and the "r" or "er"]. To bowdlerize the word any further than that would rob the title of any clarity or definition ~ how would the easly-offended know NOT to look in without some indication of the subject?

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:08 PM

>>For the record, I do happen to agree that we should probably keep 'bad' words out of thread titles... <<

Thats all I ask for.

What people say in the message is up to them

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:02 PM

I have to admit that this particular thread is not so objectionable as John's previous postings but unless someone objects where do we draw the line.

I am not advocating the return to Victorian morals merely an acceptance that such lyrics whether written or sung can be found offensive and that I for one would rather not be greeted by them every time I access Mudcat.

John has the lyrics on his site, he could very easily link to those in question and still have the discussion he craves.
Posting them here with an apology is, IMO, not good enough. Its like hitting someone on the nose but apologising for it before hand, then maintaining that the other person has no reason to get upset because you have apologised.

If you know , as John does, that people are going to be offended THEN DON'T DO IT.

By the way, I do find it interesting that all (I think) of the people defending John are male.
Could it have something to do with schoolboy lavatorial humour??

Last question ...... how can a song not known of before the 1960's be called traditional????

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:02 PM

I have also contributed to John's site. I see him as a genuine folklorist. If you don't like it, you don't have to open the thread. I don't like my kids using a lot of swear words, but I can't get over excited about it. Mind you, if they used words like "nigger", "coon" or "wog" (which in reality, they would not dream of doing), then I really would hit the roof.
Most people copulate, defecate and possibly even fellate at some time in their lives. I can't get any more upset than Clinton Hammond does about people using rather more prosaic language to describe these activities.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM

Seriously though, I do find the title more offensive than the song. Just my background and culture.

As for the song itself, I find it tasteless, even though I use myself every single profanity in it - in context. No hypocrisy, CH is right in saying that words are just words and it is intent and context that gives them colour. Gratuitous profanity does little for me.

I would not sing it unless threatened by a very big guy with a machete at my throat.

In any case, the song is not traditional... Or a folk song (which folk club airs it?). Otherwise, I have a much better one to suggest - Peter Cooke and Dudley Moore's "Jump, you fucker, jump...". Now, THAT is funny!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:55 PM

"I have young children"

Since when is this a 'child' site? This is an unmoderated (mostly) adult message board... I will propose that maybe your KIDS shouldn't be visiting the place...

or are you afraid they might see something over your shoulder while you're reading the site? They probably say/hear worse on the play ground... and if they don't yet, they will... probably very soon...

Be warned, -I'm- not about to change MY habits just because someone else is breeder... that's YOUR problem... not mine...

For the record, I do happen to agree that we should probably keep 'bad' words out of thread titles...

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:55 PM

SSDD

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Cool Beans
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:52 PM

Words are words. Research is research.
When our girls were little my wife and I tried very hard to avoid "obscene" language around them. Our kids picked it up anyway, we never made a big deal of it. Censorship is a greater sin.
I have contributed to John's archive. It's legitimate folklore research.
Don't like it? Don't read it. Don't listen to it.
God bless America and the First Amendment.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,OEDIPUS REX
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:50 PM

As someone who has been traumatised by practices such as this song alludes to, I am extremely offended

El Greko (oh, bugger, I forgot...)

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,GI JOE
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:10 PM

If you were ever in the Army, any countries army, you would have heard much worse 24 hours a day 365 days a year

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM

I have young children and would prefer that the thread/subject heading did not include the swear words. I don't want to come into the Forum and see headings like already posted. You should appreciate that children are around.
Personally I don't have objection within the message.
If this starts happening then I don't think that I want to stay on this forum.
Don't get me wrong, I can use language as good or as bad as anybody if not worse, but please be careful.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM

Taboo my aunt fanny! everybody fucks... everybody shits... (O.k.. I'll give ya the incest thing...) Get over it... It's only 'taboo' because you want to MAKE it taboo... I for one am glad I don't live in such 'Victorian' uptight times...

Every thing CAN be talked about, sang about, or joked about...

Context is all...

Would I sing this song in a CHUCH?!?! Of course not...
Would I sing it in a pub fulla rugby players??? It might be too tame for them...

Mudcat IS the context for discussing folk music... and if this ain't folk music, I donno what is...

Yer offended by the song, or by the thread? Don't post to it, and it'll drop off the bottom of the page soon enough... While yer at it, close the web browser, turn off the computer, go out to the garage and try building yourself a time machine so you can join the rest of us here in the beginning of the 21st Century.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM

I teach my classes that there are no such things as rude words, just people who are ignorant and misuse the language. Connotations were put on the words primarily by the Victorians and there's no reason to shy away from any words so long as we recognise that the sensibilities of some members of society are likely to be offended, thus we must warn people before the use of swearing.
Please don't be offended by words, folks - most of them were perfectly 'acceptable' in Old English and the practices to which they refer are usually natural and everyday.
Let's just return to the question in hand and forget about the attempts to offend or the attempts to have anything 'objectionable' removed when it is apparently in context.
Dave

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 02:04 PM

Well, I have to say that I did receive one or two reasonable comblaints about the use of bawdy words in thread titles. Some people use computers at libraries or at work that are have filters that won't allow loading of pages with words like "fuck" on them. I think this is fairly rare, so I'm not prepared to worry about it unless I'm convinced otherwise.

I have a number of books by folklorists Vance Randolph and G. Legman and Ed Cray. You'll find some pretty ripe words amongst the titles of some of the songs in these books, and the cover art on one Ed Cray book is probably politically incorrectly sexist. Still, they're from the work of three of the most renowned American folklorists. Should we euphemize their work?

The worst of this euphemization is in the world of sea songs, where the collectors euphemized so heavily that it's well-nigh impossible to find chanteys in their original form.

I think John is following in the footsteps of Randolph and Legman and Cray. He is working hard to document a large collection of work that is truly folk music. I certainly don't want to get in his way.

What do others think?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: RichM
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:57 PM

I have no objection to the word "Motherfucker".

I'm one myself!

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Piers
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:41 PM

But the words represent taboo practices - fornication, incest, defecation, etc. - that's why they offend.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 01:34 PM

What I say to people with objections is "Fuck Em"!

"have offending words blanked"
How childish...

There are no offensive words... words are just words...

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: nutty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM

I agree that songs of this type have been around for hundreds of years ... The only difference being that the majority were held in private collections ... they certainly were not on public display as you would like us to believe.

Even those on public display as found in the Bodleian Broadside collection would have offending words blanked.

You are deliberately trying to offend .... you could ask your questions without including the narratives in their entirity.

I consider that you have no place on this site ....you are a troll of the worst kind and you certainly have no interest in Folk Music ... traditional or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: John M.
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM

Here is a link to the original 'Motherf---er's Ball' thread so that those who wish to CONTRIBUTE know what has already been said.

Yes this song is traditional in the sense that people knew and sung this parody of the Darktown Strutter's Ball.  It may not be known by many people but it was known by *some* college students in the 1960s.
 

Subject: RE: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM

This is traditional?

Subject: Objections to 'The Motherf---er's Ball'
From: John M.
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:07 PM

This is the thread where you can post objections to the thread about 'The Motherf----er's Ball'.

First off, you should know that I am not posting bawdy threads just to raise objections.   I am interesting to knowing more about the song and meeting and talking with people who sing these songs. If I were to dash "---" expurgate the objectionable words, then there is a good chance I will never get to talk with the people who know this song.

Second, this is a traditional song and should be part of MudCat as are other traditional songs.

Please post any objections or questions to me personally below.

Sincerely,

John Mehlberg