Folklore: Christmas confusion

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 02:45 AM

Good read here that will clear it all up.

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 02:40 AM

So was there or was there not a Christmas recently, and did we actually have one in Canada?

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: nutty
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 02:31 AM

I'm not sure that people still understand why I feel that there is confusion.

It is accepted that Britain was out of step with the rest of Europe until 1752.

Adjustments were made in September of that year when September 3rd became Sept 14th. The calender moved 11 days FORWARDS>. The same applied to MARCH 25TH (New Years Day) which in 1753 was adjusted FORWARDS> to April 5th and later to April 6TH.

This did not happen at Christmas Day (Dec 25th) which instead had moved

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:39 PM

According to the info I have , in the Middle Ages, 1st Jan was called the Festival of Fools and was merely part of the 12 days of Christmas celebrations.

In Britain, Christmas was not celebrated until some time in AD800

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:27 PM

BTW - New Year's day according to the Standard Julian calander was January 1. That went into effect in something like 46 BC.

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM

hmmmm - I learned something new today. It seems that the SECULAR new year was January 1; ( but in England the RELIGIOUS and TAX new year were in march. But the same act that moved England to the Gregorian Calander also moved the New Year to conform with the secular (and the observed new year in other countries) though they left the tax year alone.

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:19 PM

Jan 6 on the new calender was Dec 25 on the old calender, nutty. That's what MM is trying to get across. So, yes, New year was the 12th Jan in the new calender but still called 1st of Jan on the old one. Confused? You should be... :-)

Incidentaly (or perhaps indecently considering the aside) this is why the tax man starts his year on April 6. It was the old new years day of March 25 but adding 12 days to the calender made it April 6. No-one wanted to pay their tax 12 days early so the just moved the tax year!

So there you have it - we cannot help but live in the past.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
Who believes every day is the first day of a new year and celebrates accordingly:-)

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:06 PM

No need to SHOUT MMario.

That theory might work for Christmas but if applied to New Year it would mean that New Year's Day should have moved to somewhere around March 13th not 1st Jan.

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:37 PM

They celebrated christmas on December 25th BY THE CALANDER IN RFFECT AT THE TIME>

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM

Thanks Nigel .... I hang my head in shame ... I should have noticed the error.

MMario ..... they could not have celebrated New Year on the Ist of Jan if they didn't celebrate Christmas until the 6th Jan.

Britain was out of step with the rest of Europe for approx 200 years. Except for the Catholic Church which celebrated as directed by the Pope. Secular festivities were on different dates..

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:11 PM

CHRISTMAS was celebrated on Dec 25th. GIFTS were given either on 12th night or Epiphany - (which depending on how you count 12th night is Epiphany anyway - though the church counts it as the 13th day)

BTW - New Year's was officially January 1 in England probably from roughtly AD 100 onwards - doubt there was much hangover of previous new year celebrations buy the time the gregorian calander came in - or even by the Norman Conquest.

Now there are people who say the Orthodox church celebratees Christmas on Jan 6th - but they really don't because they calculate their calander on the Julian calander not the gregorian.

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:09 PM

Just to reduce some of the confusion (or stop it building) England transferred to the Gregorian Calendar in 1752, not 1725 (as previously stated). This meant a 'catch up' exercise of 11 days, meaning that Sept 2nd of that year was followed by Sept 14th.
At the same time, New Year's Day moved from 25th March to 1st January. This helps explain those odd months September, October, November & December, which previously lived up to their (translated) names as the 7th, 8th, 9th & 10th months of the year!


Also both Miguel De Cervantes (author of Don Quixote) and William Shakespeare (author of something else...) died (according to some sources) on 23 April 1616. However, Cervantes pre-deceased Shakespeare by 10 days as Spain was already on the Gregorian calendar, while England was still on the Julian

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:14 PM

But srely, that just adds to the confusion MMario.

If Christmas Day was celebrated on 6th Jan then Epiphany would be 12 days later on 18th Jan (wouldn't it) pre 1725 that is.

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:13 PM

BTW - the calender changes occurred elsewhere in Europe earlier - and in Russia later then 1725

Subject: RE: Christmas confusion
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:04 PM

well - christmas was actually celebrated on Dec 25th - but the date called December 25th occurred approxmimately on the date now called January sixth because they had gone centuries without accounting for discrepencies in calenders.

However - The older Christmas tradition also called for gift giving on the 6th ANYWAY - because that is when the magi gave gifts to the babe.

Subject: Christmas Customs Confusion !!!
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:50 AM

Is there any one else out there who gets very confused about the dates and meanings of Christmas and New Year customs in Britain?

Generally we regard traditions as having happened at the same time for many centuries where, in fact, calander changes in 1725 meant that this is inaccurate.

See here for clear explanation

Before 1725....

Christmas Day was celebrated on 6th January

New Years Day was 25th March

This would mean that songs such as The Apple Tree Wassail would be sung in March when the buds and blossom were likely to be appearing (makes sense) and the Plough Monday traditions
could well have been in April when the fields would begin to be worked after lying fallow through the winter months.

Can anyone else think of any songs or customs that would fit more sensibly into this new time frame?