BS: And your point is...

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:02 PM

Ard Mhacha, I merely said the Telegraph wasn't the most right wing Paper in the UK. And it suggested its readers vote Labour in 1997...

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:39 AM

There are days when I think the US is obsessed with class. More and more often.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:18 AM

I disagree, Richard. Classism in the USA includes the extent of one's education, i.e. degree and which collge it is from; if one uses "proper English;" one's ethnic background; and, one's geographic origin, esp. in the USA, i.e. "the wrong side of the tracks," so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:30 AM

In a class system class is not defined by wealth. In England it is perfectly possible to be upper class or upper middle class but poor. class is mostly evidenced by accent but also by other social niceties. It is defined by birth.

All that I have observed of the USA is that "class" is defined solely to refer to wealth, sometimes "old money".

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Becca72
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:02 PM

Oh yeah, well we felt the same way about them 230 years ago. :-)

and IMHO, if people stayed away from the stores on holidays they would soon realize that it's not worth being open. But people in our country seize up at the thought of not being able to go to Wal-Mart whenever the mood strikes them. Wal-Mart isn't to blame for that, they're just supplying the demand so we must blame ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

You go, Molly!!

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

Dissent is and always has been patriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: harpmolly
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
         --Mark Twain


Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. Needless to say, right now the government is not at the top of my list of those deserving support. But I defy anyone to say I don't love my country, or at least the idea of what my country could be if someone who actually gave a shit about right and wrong (or, at least, thought deeply about what they ACTUALLY entail) was in charge.

This country certainly has its share of checkered history, and no amount of wishful thinking can erase that. But millions upon millions of immigrants would not have risked life and limb to come here if it didn't offer something, some chance for life to be better than where they came from. Unfortunately, their dream has been eclipsed by those who think the country, and indeed the world, should be nothing more than their own personal yacht club. If Independence Day reminds us of anything, it is that speaking out in passionate dissent against injustice and tyranny is at the core of true patriotism. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Ann Coulter--being called a traitor by you is the sweetest music to my ears.

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

I understand, artbrooks, just can't agree. I am disgusted and embarrassed about the way our country has come to be viewed in the world and at how it treats its own citizens. The flag represents that, imo. Today so many Americans "celebrate" therr freedom to go to "work" to satisfy the ultra-consumer society we've become, including my daughter who ought to be able to spend the day at home with her twin sons. There is no respect for our country, within our country. I remember when I was a kid the ONLY thing open might have been one or two gas stations for those travellers who were out. This is the only national holiday in which I believe almost everything to do with consuming should be shut down for the day. We've become a nation of hypocrits.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:04 AM

Any one raised in the South (US) can tell you all about class.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:50 AM

The US has never been a classless society. There have always been the "upper crust", and today the US has the greatest differences between the classes since the "Gilded Age" of the 1890s. That was cut down in a social revolution (muckrakers, anti-monopoly legislations, Pure Food and Drug Act, unionization, etc.) and I think that's again about due.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM

the USA is not obsessed with class: there is no class system there...

Ah, the hoary myth of the "classless society" in the Good Old U.S. of A. Haven't heard THAT one in quite some time.

Utter nonsense, of course, but one of the the most popular fallacies going. Ciitizens of the U.S. are most often deluded- intriguing to see the myth has an overseas presence as well.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:47 AM

The poll doesn't seem that far off. 77% thinking (in the UK) that Bush is gawdawful isn't that far from something in the low 30s (in the US) liking what he is doing.

Sorry, Kat...I am flying my flag because I am proud of my country, and I refuse to allow the actions of one or two jerks and their ever-decreasing minority of supporters to ruin that.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM

A lot of Americans feel the same way. It is why I will not fly the flag today; I feel no pride in our country at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:16 AM

Bobert, I had a letter this morning from my Pittsburgh cousin, she tells me that,`this whole war thing is a big downer, her friends are in total disagreement with Bush and his government`.

As for that Poll in the Daily Telegraph, does it matter who conducted it, Teribus go elsewhere and split your hairs.

If the Daily Telegraph is not a right wing paper tell me the last time it give it`s support to any Labour government?.

The bog hole in the middle east is becoming deeper and deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:03 AM

At least you in the US lock up your home grown criminals,and deport the foreign ones

DUI killer

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:26 AM

Oh, no, one major error there - as I understand it the USA is not obsessed with class: there is no class system there for there has never been an aristocracy. As a sweeping generalisation I would say it is obsessed with money and it fails utterly to understand the difference between money and class, a failing it is transmitting to England where a common vulgarian like Mrs Beckham can now be called "Posh".

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: harpmolly
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:35 AM

Thanks for the compliment, Bobert, but I'm really not all that holy. ;)

Often chaste but never caught *grin*

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:15 AM

Nothing surprising about those poll results. You'd get similar reactions in Canada and in most other places too.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM

The poll ard, is reported by the Telegraph, but was actually conducted by YouGov:

"Founded in May 2000, YouGov is a professional market research agency pioneering the use of the Internet and information technology to collect higher-quality in-depth data for market research and public consultation.

YouGov has pro-actively recruited respondents from all ages, socio economic groups and regions of Britain. The sample for each survey is carefully selected and controlled so that it is representative of the adult population as a whole - or the specific audience that the survey is designed to measure."

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:58 PM

The Telegraph is not the most right wing paper in Britian, I believe that 'honour' goes to the Daily (hate)Mail

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM

This is froma right winged paper???

Holy Molly, wonder just how bad our image really is???

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM

That's even better.

Subject: RE: BS: And your point is...
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:27 PM

This poll is from the most right-wing paper in the UK, the Irish papers would most likely record a similar result.

Subject: BS: And your point is...
From: 282RA
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060703/pl_afp/britainuspopularity;_ylt=AoSPeh00hbcV6_VQ3KQCFAOtOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NGRzMjRtBHNlYwMxN