How to make a fiddle sound like a cello

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:14 AM

You can do something like Foolestroupe's trick, using one of those little battery operated rotary fans you can get in cheapy shops on any stringed instrument. Weird sound.

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:23 AM

Seems to work properly like a bow now, John.

Of course, since my dad was a good classical trained violinist, I know what happens when you push the bow down too hard, which is WHY I did what I did with the Symphonie.... :-)

The only hassle is that the original wheel (which gave a good loud tone) developed a flat spot, which some self acclaimed "expert in fixing HG's" attempted to "fix" by attacking the bloody wheel (still in the instrument!) and without even my knowledge, let alone consent!!! with a hand held razor blade!!!!

Had to have a new wheel built, which is not as rough on the surface, so the volume is MUCH lower, whether set up my way, or the 'traditional' way....

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:58 AM

Robin -

Sort of like replacing the HG wheel with a bicycle wheel with rubber spokes? - so the wheel can "bounce like a bow." (????)

Sounds reasonable to me, but then I always believe everything you say.

(almost).


John

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:38 AM

I modified the 'normal'- read 'traditional' action of my Symphonie - which is a small precursor of the HG so it produces pure violin tones - it uses standard violin gut strings.

Back off the string so it is not touching the wheel, even when vibrating at full movement - then ensure there is sufficient loosely wound 'cotton' or 'wool' on the string - the wheel then stimulates the string without it touching the wheel and giving the buzzing sound.

Weird Shit eh?

I'm not making this up you know...

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:37 PM

As a kid, we actually did "junior versions" with shorter twine, but the principle is quite sound. You can probably find the "barn door bass" with a quick Google. Only a few of the sources I've seen though mention the possibility of really long strings and "longitudinal mode excitation."

A cousin claimed that a "friend" tried to do the full scale one, but he messed up and used baling wire instead of twine. When he couldn't get the tension up to snuff he hooked onto a tractor (a small one) but the instrument failed 'cause the barn door came off the hinges. (I suspect it was an old barn, with pretty soft wood around the hinge bolts. My cousin would never have made up somethin' like that.)

As a pre-teen, I used to annoy my mom by "stroking" the steel clotheslines on my way out the back door. They got longitudinal mode squeals pretty easily once you learned how. About 45 feet long, they'd hit E string fiddle notes. She finally had dad loosen the wires so they weren't quite so responsive.

It's pretty easy to get the "longitudinal mode" vibration on a guitar just by sliding your fingers lengthwise along the string. It would seem that only a fiddle or hurdy gurdy would be likely to get the torsional mode. It probably is necessary to have the strings at least slightly "out of round" as well as twisted, and to use a bow or other "rubbing device" to get much windup in the right direction on the strings.

John

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:05 PM

JohninKS, some day I am going to drive through Kansas on the way to somewhere just to meet you and Linn! And, I want to see a demonstration of the barn/binder twine cello.:-)

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:47 PM

dick g -

By way of explanation:

The normal "action" of a string results when you pull it sideways and let go, or in the case of a fiddle you rub it sideways for a succession of sideward motions of the string. This transverse vibration happens at a particular frequency, so you get a particular pitch.

In the recommended "twist the string" mode, if the string is not perfectly round, bowing will cause the twist to wind and unwind. Since the string is much less stiff for torsional winding/unwinding, the frequency at which it vibrates in "torsional mode" will be significantly lower. The "evidence" suggests that it's on the order of a "part of an octave" lower than the normal transverse vibration mode, so you can tune it to a fifth lower than normal transverse pitch for that string.

There is also a third vibration mode for a string that can sometimes be excited by "stroking it lengthwise." This "longitudinal mode" of vibration is usually very much higher in pitch than the normal lateral mode. For guitar strings it's often something like 6 times the frequency of the normal lateral mode vibration. Exciting of the longitudinal mode of vibration most likely accounts for some of the more piercing squeaks one hears from beginning fiddlers, and probably is a component of the "fret noise" squeaks often heard from guitars.

The "longitudinal mode" is about right for musical sounds if one ties about 40 to 60 feet of binder twine to a barn door, leans back hard on the end of the string, and whips it with a hoe handle. (This instrument is documented in some "found instrument books.")

It all depends on which direction the string is going when the motion hits the bridge, but really results from the different string stiffness when you stretch lengtwise, pull sideways, or twist in a winding motion.

John

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:55 PM

Bill, I get

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Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:54 PM

Not unless you rip its guts out for string, stretch 'em across the carcass, and tuck the lot under your chin.

~S~

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:50 PM

A chin-chello? Is that anything like this?

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:49 PM

"if you present the ear with a set of harmonics that would correspond to an unplayed fundamental, could the brain supply the missing fundamental?"

You could be close, dick... I have seen mention of that sort of auditory trick of the brain before.

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:26 PM

sell the fiddle and buy the best chello you can afford with the money ?

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:26 PM

anu suggested explanations"? The only thing I can think of is a sort of auditory illusion: if you present the ear with a set of harmonics that would correspond to an unplayed fundamental, could the brain supply the missing fundamental? Physicists, help!

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:20 PM

Forgive my weird bentness, but is this anything like "how to make a cat sound like a dog"?

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: LilyFestre
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:12 AM

I have a fiddle strung with the octave strings, or at least I did. They cost about $100.00 and had to be imported from Germany. I love the sound of these strings on my violin, BUT you should know that they are very difficult to keep in tune. Many times I'd be playing along and it would just go out of tune, very annoying. Also, be prepared for some new (but well worth it) callouses if you decide to go this route.

Michelle

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 09:05 PM

Or you can use octave strings, an octave lower. Makes the fiddle a chin-cello. Expensive, but lovely sound.

~S~

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:43 PM

Thanks Mick. I keep forgetting I'm a member of that forum and get a shock when my name pops up. I'm inclined to agree with the comment on there that a low 5th string is a better idea.

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:34 PM

cr

The article is available at New Scientist web site but you need to subscribe to read it.

There is some discussion here: Fiddle Forum

Mick

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM

Rub it down with a mixture of steroids and hair growth formula. This, howerer, may disqualify you from playing it in international competition.

Subject: RE: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

Is this online?

Subject: How to make a fiddle sound like a cello
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:45 PM

This is from an article in New Scientist Sept 30th. The trick apparently is to apply a twist to the string before tightening it. Plus drawing the bow at a constant pressure and velocity. It sets-up torsional vibrations in the string which are an octave down (subharmonic). Discovered by Mari Kimura (New York) and investigated by Alfred Hanssen from the University of Tromsø in Norway.