Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:57 AM

Thanks for the info about Dickens' publishing, Kevin. Quite interesting.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:40 PM

This thread is proving extremely helpful, certainly with ideas.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 08:47 PM

You might do best to identify a few issues you'd like songs about, and search sources like the Bodleian Library ballad database for appropriate items.

There are an absolute shitload of songs about the Reform Bill of 1832 and the elections that immediately followed it. I know the Edinburgh ones (there are perhaps 100, some of them astonishingly obscene), but every town in Britain will have had them. There are a few songs about the cholera epidemic of the same few years (less than you'd think). Stacks of songs about the Crimean War, mostly satires on government bumbling. A lot of broadsides about the radical agitation of the years 1815-1820. Chartist songs. Internationalist political songs about the events of 1848. Dickens himself, as a journalist, covered a dinner in honour of Earl Grey, the architect of the 1832 electoral reform; there is a strathspey by James Hill commemorating the erection of a monument to Grey in Newcastle about 20 years later.

There must be loads of topical ballads about the Great Stink of 1858, look at the newspapers of the time - most of them had a topical song or poem in every issue.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:53 PM

It appears he published it in weekly serial form in Household Words - which he edited himself - during the early part of 1854, and the book came out on 7th August that year, one week before the publication of the final installment in the magazine. That was seen as a clever way of boosting sales, and was normal practice.

His practice was to write the episodes as he went along, rather than write the book and chop it up into episodes. That meant sometimes that the plot was affected by the public response - that was especially true with Martin Chuzzlewit, which was in monthly parts, and published in a magazine he didn't edit himself. The American sections of that hadn't been originally intended, I believe.

Stephen Foster's song was actually published in early 1855 - "Foster's "Hard Times Come Again No More," published in early 1855, was both a reflection of recent events in his personal life and a portent of things to come. He and Jane separated for a time in 1853 and his close friend, Charles Shiras, died during that same period. During 1855, both his parents died. (From here)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: nutty
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:16 PM

You could try some of these as well:-

Broadsides of these songs in the Bodleian Library give these dates ...

PUBLISHED Circa 1850

Adieu my lovely Nancy
Banks of Sweet Primroses
The Bold Fisherman
Foggy Dew
Sir John Barleycorn (There were three knights)
The Rose of Allendale
The Banking Boy (Young Banker)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:32 PM

Just for curiousity's sake, Kevin, I have been told that Dickens wrote his stories as serial episodes printed in newspapers and that they only became published as books at a later date. That was the reason that (for instance) Martin Chuzzlewit goes incredibly slowly (dragging out the number of episodes) until the last chapter or two (when the paper told him they wouldn't pay for more) and suddenly he had to resolve all plot lines.
If Hard Times followed that format, I wonder how the date of the published novel would relate to the (earlier) serialisation.
Quack!
Gtd.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:52 AM

Hard Times by Dickens and Hard Times by Stephen Foster were both published in 1854 - which would indeed suggest that, since it takes longer to write and publish a novel than a song, it couldn't have been a case of Dickens borrowing Foster's title. There is a character in Dickens novel called Foster, but I doubt if that is significant.

But there's nothing in the song that suggests any borrowing or inspiration other than the name itself - and that could just as easily have come from "Oh the Hard Times of Old England", which is probably where Dickens took it. I've always understood that to be from the immediate post-Napoleonic period.

The Roast Beef of Old England is very much pre-Kipper. Hogarth's painting with that title is dated 1748. And this site gives the date of the song as 1735. I don't know when the French started calling the English "les Rosbifs", but I suspect round that time.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

I can remember seeing Peter Sellers singing "Samuel Hall" on the telly years ago. It might have been on the BBC's "Good Old Days" music hall show. Anyone remember it?

I thought at the time the tune was the same as Captain Kidd, as mentioned above.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

Stephen Foster's Hard Times is often believed to have been written after he had read Dickens' novel, Hard Times, rather than inspired by American lifestyles. Don't know how true that might be.
You can see his original notebook online here at http://images.library.pitt.edu/.
It is dated as 1851.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:06 AM

Thank you Bill and Nutty, very helpful.

I thought Hard Times Come again no more was newer than that, nad I nearly know the tune so I should be able to get it off reasonably speedily.

I used to know some of the YTV people Bill, but if you can find the LP and do me a tape or CD - or point me at a source for the LP, that would be very very helpful. Can you PM me and then we can email off the forum?

I'm coming more and more to fancy Sam Hall as a song. Who can point me at an accesible recording of the right tune?

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:28 AM

All Stephen Foster Songs (1826 - 1864) qualify. Plenty of scope there.

Particularly 'Hard times come again no more'

And that one's very appropriate to Dickens too!

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

And I have all those Roy Palmer books for sale - at reasonable prices.

Dave

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: bill\sables
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:55 AM

In the 70s /80s I worked for a Television company and we made the drama series "Dickens of London". With the series the company (Yorkshire Television)produced a Long Playing record of parlour songs of the period. Only one song title I remember was the Catsmeat Song. I have the LP somewhere I'll try to look it up
Bill

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: nutty
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:27 AM

All Stephen Foster Songs (1826 - 1864) qualify. Plenty of scope there.

Particularly 'Hard times come again no more'

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 09:29 PM

What about John Braham's "The Death of Nelson"? - what I like about it, apart from the tune, is the way JB manages to use Nelson's famous signal as a sort of chorus.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 07:49 PM

Here's a link to a previous Mudcat thread which has some hair raising verses of Sam Hall, plus other relevant material - Origins: Damn your eyes:

W G Ross sang it night after night from about 1848 to 1850 at the Cyder Cellars in Maiden Lane, Covent Garden. The Cyder Cellars, the Coal Hole and one or two other 'caves of harmony' were notorious in an earlier time, particularly around the 1820s/30s... 'Sam Hall' certainly had a reputation for being blasphemous ... But the shock came from Ross's skill in presenting the image of a condemned man facing his last hours of life with furious defiance against God, the law and mankind in general. This was the 'blasphemy' that stuck in the throats of good and pure souls (many of whom had never actually heard the song).   Ross's 'Damn yer eyes!' and his address to Mollie in the crowd ('Well, ain't you bleedin proud') made the flesh creep.(GUEST,Billy Weeks)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:33 PM

Basically Sam Hall is the Captain Kidd tune. The early Victorian pre-musical version was said to be sung in a very rough and agressive way. People would faint it's claimed, but that might just have been hype. It was definitely notorious:

"There's the `Ross' and the `Sam Hall' song-books," said one man, "the `eighteenth series,' and I don't know what; but I don't like to ven-ture on working them, though they're only a penny. There's lots to be seen in the shop-windows; but they might be stopped in the street, for they an't decent." (From here)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM

"I gather the popular tune to "Sam Hall" is Johnny Cash - so can anyone help me with the English tune for it?"

Martin Graebe and Shan Cowan recently released a CD called 'Parallel Strands' (Wild Goose Records WGS 323 CD, 2005). On this CD Martin sings a song called 'Tyburn Hill' (which I've also heard him call 'Lank Hall'). It's version of 'Sam/Jack Hall' from the Baring Gould collection with a marvellous tune. The words also have an older, more Georgian feel to them than many of the versions I have heard.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:05 PM

I don't know whether your target range includes military songs.

If so, was "The British Light Infantry" still being sung in your period?
I know it had been current at the time of the American revolution, but maybe it was still used.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:30 AM

Hmm, hmm,

I have today been told about a song called "The Gravesend Boat" possibly from my period, about a sild trawler (sild, little fish a bit like sardines) from Gravesend.

Does anyone know the song and can help me with it?

Does anyone know any song about the Gravesend Watermen's Riot?

Can anyone point me to the words and tune (chords would be nice, or even a recording) of Dave Rickard's "Princess Alice"?

I gather the popular tune to "Sam Hall" is Johnny Cash - so can anyone help me with the English tune for it?

Working on it.....

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:19 PM

Thank you McGrath, I have dipped into that. Plenty there to offend today's susceptibilites, with talk of inferior races!

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:18 PM

Richard,

I'm going to have to give it up and leave it to those who have their song origin resources ready at hand. Sorry! No joy on the Internet, and I am supposed to be working...

But before I go, while you are researching songs, you might look into R"igs of the Time", which is similar in subject matter and mentions Napoleon, so I imagine it would be from about the right time. Great song,too!

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:07 PM

Richard, I don't trust Wikipedia either -- except when it supports something I already know to be true!

I haven't found any information on "Hard Times" other than the label "traditional" thus far, but I shall keep delving. I wish I were home where I have access to my library! Sigh.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:02 PM

Here's a link to the online text of Mayhew's London Labour and the London Poor, which includes masses of very Dickensian real-life characters - and several chapters about early music hall hall (the "Vic Gallery" and "the Penny Gaff") as well as severalm about street song sellers and singers.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:58 AM

Thank you ClaireBear, I learn something here relatively often and that is one. I don't always trust Wikipedia, despite the fact that it is increasingly cited in US courts. It is not I think regarded as an academic source in either English or US universities.

Have you a date for "Hard Times"? if "Roast Beef" is 1731 and "Hard Times" is later that might be good.

Hogarth is good, since he lived on the Isle of Grain in what is now the Hogarth Arms and had one of his famour orgiastic weekends at the Nag's Head in Lower Stoke - but he is too early at 1748.

Many other good ideas and sources above. I will aim to do some research and revert. I found a prmising looking CD on Amazon as well - do I spring £15 on spec? Hmmm Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:32 AM

I just have to correct your misconception about "Roast Beef of Old England", which I have in many an old songbook: Fielding wrote it! It's "Hard Times" that was the follow-on version. Here's the Wikipedia entry on "Roast Beef":

***
The Roast Beef of Old England is an English patriotic ballad. It was written by Henry Fielding for his play The Grub-Street Opera, which was first performed in 1731. The lyrics were added to over the next twenty years. The song increased in popularity when given a new setting by the composer Richard Leveridge, and it became customary for theatre audiences to sing it before, after, and occasionally during, any new play. The tune is also played at United States Marine Corps formal mess dinners, during the presentation of the beef.

The song provided the popular title for a 1748 painting by William Hogarth: O the Roast Beef of Old England (The Gate of Calais).
***

The modern parody is "Hard Cheese of Old England" by Les Barker.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:50 AM

Richard, it might be worth a visit to Jon Freeman's site http://www.folkinfo.org.

John has songs stored in a database which is very searchable. Putting 1807 into the search box pulled up four items which contained that date within the background details.

Folkinfo Database Keyword Search

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: The Doctor
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:41 AM

'A Ballad History of England' has 27 songs for this period, including 'Ten Per Cent', a song linked in the article to Charles Dickens at Coketown.
'A Touch on the Times' covers the period 1770-1914, and only some of the songs can be dated, but there's a lot there.
Roy Palmer's 'The Rambling Soldier' covers much the same period, and Roy Harris recorded twelve on an LP of the same name.
Another LP, 'Songs and Music of the Redcoats', has seven songs from the Napoleonic Wars.
I have all of these, and if you want further information it's probably better to get in touch direct.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:26 AM

You may want to look at a couple of Roy Palmer's books:

'A Touch On The Times: Songs of Social Change 1770 to 1914', Penguin (Education), 1974 (ISBN 0 14 08 1182 6)

and

'A Ballad History Of England: From 1588 to the Present Day', Batsford, 1979 (ISBN 0 7134 0968 1)

No idea how easy these will be to find.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:03 AM

OK, "Consider Yourself" or "Food Glorious Food" then! :-)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:03 AM

I used to sing a song from the Hammond Brothers' collection called 'To Marry the Queen of England', an anti-Albert song presumably from about 1840. The chorus goes:

Oh I'm the lad so gay and bright
And I have done the trick so right
Gathered the shining gold so bright
And married the Queen of England.

Somehow, though, I've lost a couple of the verses. Many years ago I gave a complete copy to Martin Carthy and when I saw him at Frome in December, he said he was sure he'd still got it and, if he had, he'd send them to me. Hasn't happened yet, but he's never let me down.

If it's of any use, I could get most of the song to you.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:01 AM

I think I might be in trouble with a connection between Dickens and Belfast, although the period for the song is right.

Actually, Scrump, that isn't such a silly idea except that because of the song's anti-semitism it is risky today.

Roast Beef of Old England is I think Kipper family piss-take of the possibly too old "Hard Times of Old England" - but I'm open to input on the date of the latter.

Does anyone know if "Nelson's Blood" is of that period or whether it is a modern song? To my ear it sounds modern.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:44 AM

SKIPPING SONG OF THE 1840's

Limavady has a workhouse, a workhouse, a workhouse
Limavady has a workhouse
Nobody wants to go in

Don't go into the workhouse, the workhouse, the workhouse
Don't go into the workhouse
You'll never get out again

Life is hard in the workhouse, the workhouse, the workhouse
Life is hard in the workhouse
You work from dawn to ten

Nothing to eat but Peel's Brinstone, Brinstone, Brinstone
Nothing to eat but Peel's Brinstone
For breakfast, dinner and tea

Limavady has a workhouse, a workhouse, a workhouse
Limavady has a workhouse
Nobody wants to go in

from here.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:34 AM

You Gotta Pick A Pocket Or Two?

... I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:24 AM

The Workhouse Test Act of 1723 (event)

"Roast Beef of Old England" (song)

The "Forty Five" rebellion (event)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 03:48 AM

I should perhaps emphasise the perils of trying tobe funny early in the morning - "rather young" = minus 7!

THere is an interesting e-book here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16595/16595-8.txt.

It appears to review the entirety of Dickens' connection with music and contians a complete list of music and songs mentioned in his writings.

It gives me some ideas - but I am beginning to wonder if I have bitten off more than I can chew....

However, it seems that Villikins and his Dinah rose to popularity within my period, and it also shows Dickens familiar with "Over the Hills and Far Away" - and gives two verses I did not know!

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 03:13 AM

I'm still thinking about Sam Hall.

I think it would be possible to make a case for "Nelson's Blood" even though Dickens would have been rather young when Nelson died in 1805 (and although I suspect the song as we know it it more recent).

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:05 PM

I can't see how the fact there was the earlier version matters too much. Rewritten as Sam Hall the song had enormous notoriety in early Victorian times. Very much opart of the environment about which Dickens wrote.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM

Sam Hall's real name was Jack Hall and he was executed in 1707, so that's too early. It was probably re-written in 1844 but gained popularity as a music hall song under the title Sam Hall - so that 's too late. But thanks anyway

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:30 PM

Hmm, that makes it more difficult. Around here (in California), we sing "When Jones's Ale Was New" with a last verse that always made me think of Magwitch:

The last to come in was a convict who had slept out on the moors.
He called for a pint of Jones's ale and collapsed upon the floor.
He'd crossed the moors for miles and miles
Desp'rately searching for hacksaws and files..."

Still, I suppose the rest of the ditty's far too rural. Good luck with your search!

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM

Folk Songs Of Kent which is actually not much use material-wise as it's mostly about hops and apples but there are lots of contacts for people who might know (like Andy Turner).

As for off-shore installations like prison hulks, try asking Chris Wood who released an album called Knock John. Not that it actually had any songs on this subject but he might know of some, since he lives in sight of where they used to be.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM

Sam Hall ("blast your eyes") - very much one that Bill Sykes would have relished and very probably sung.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:04 PM

Nice link Cliarebear o the Industrial revolution songs, btu I feel I ought specifically to address Londonandthe NOrth Kent coast.

What about prison Hulks (Magwitch being the link)

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:02 PM

Ah, I see. They are the same, except that Carthy's version skips from the first four lines of verse 1 directly to the last four lines of verse 3. There, now it'll be easier to learn!

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:55 PM

Actually, now that I look at them, those aren't the words I know. Hang on, I'll see if I can find them somewhere.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM

Ludd's Triumph -- 1811? Martin Carthy recorded it to avery simple but effective tune, which shouldn't be hard to find or learn...though the words are a bit of a challenge in themselves.

Subject: RE: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:40 PM

What about something from the end of the Napoleonic wars? I am not good enough to play "Swaggering Boney", but there must have been marching songs and period shanties?

Subject: Help-Early Dickensian Songs (1807-70)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:37 PM

I've very rashly just accepted to open a 3-hour show of music reflecting the environment about which Dickens wrote (largely downwardly mobile life from London along the North Kent Coast) to the present day.

I am allocated the early period - ie 1807 to the real rise of music hall, so I am NOT expected to do music hall songs.    I get 3 to 5 songs.

OK Sweep (Copper family, street cry a la "Oliver" and the reflection of Rochester) is an obviosity.

What else should I do and where can I source words and dots or recordings?

The Princess Alice is 8 years too late. (Good song by Dave Rickard though).

Pocahontas is 100 years too early.

The Gravesend Watermen's Riot of 1833 would be bang on - but are there any songs about it?

What about naval or military songs of the period? Chatham was home to both, with the dockyard and the barracks?

Even if I adopt the version "King George commands" for "Over the Hills and far away" it is too early, and it does not address the urban experience.

In short I am in urgent search of songs to fit the need and from the period - songs that I might know and have forgotten, or ones that are readily researchable.

Suggestions please.