Fascists Close St George event?

Subject: Folklore: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:07 AM

I know nothing about the facts but picked up elsewhere a quote: -

"folk singing/story telling event for St George's eve forced to cancel due to intimidation by Sheffield racists?"


Anyone know the facts?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM

Have a look on the Folk Against Fascism permathread, Richard. But this is what has been said by the organiser, Abi Gibbens, today:

The landlord of the pub we where we were due to hold our event received, he says, phone threats from a known BNP member saying if this gig went ahead it could be very bad news for him. It was a vague threat, but enough for the landlord to then phone one of the organisers of the gig (Simon) and say he wanted "nothing to do with all this shit". Simon was concerned about the threat, and asked if he'd called the police. The landlord replied he didn't want the police involved, he didn't want a police presence at the pub, and repeated he wanted nothing to do with the gig. When Simon and I met at the pub that evening, there were posters everywhere saying "UAF concert cancelled". Now this gig had nothing to do with UAF (Unite Against Fascism), but certain posts on the Sheffield Forum internet site revealed a certain person trying to stir up that the UAF *were* involved, and saying (direct quote from post, since removed from forum site):

"It said in the star yesterday that the UAF was holding a concert to spread the word about the hatred BNP, well the UAF don't let us have out get togethers in pubs for meetings, they bombard the pubs with threats. So the BNP just decided to get some of there own back on them!!!! "

( http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6162228&postcount=15 )

In the end we (organisers and artists) went to another nearby pub for a chat about it all, and as there was a general feeling of not wanting to be cowed by thugs, two of the artists performed there anyway.

I'm afraid I don't have a copy of the actual listing in The Star, but have attached a copy of the flyers we used to promote the event.

-----

That's the facts, but if you want my personal reaction it would probably have a lot more swear words in it. The landlord pulled the rug from under us, effectively saying I am a spineless humbug who would rather keep the BNP happy than the unoffensive, local people who organised an entire evening event that would have brought in a ton of people to buy beer in my pub. Sod their publicity costs, sod their artist costs, sod the fact that it's only 6hrs' notice. The artists were shocked and pissed off, the punters were shocked and pissed off, and as the landlord has made very clear he wants to remain anonymous, it has been left to me to explain why *we* were so cowardly as to cancel an event after a vaguely worded anonymous BNP threat.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM

It's the Nightmare Years all over again. Scary stuff.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:35 AM

Sickening isn't it. These are the people who claim they believe in free speech and "British" values. I trust the landlord reported the matter to the police. Anyone see that silly pillock in a white coat, with a colander on his head, in the news item about the BNP manifesto launch yesterday?

Then there's the startling news that the BNP is being sued by Marmite for using the Marmite logo in the BNP election broadcast. If it wasn't so funny it would be hilarious.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: MC Fat
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:12 AM

Spoke to Simon last night. As I said the landlord has a young family and I suspect (as I do know him) that it was because of this he was phased. A few weeks earlier a UKIP right wing pillock was mouthing of and I gave him (the UKIP guy) a bit of a verbal bashing the landlord joined in as well.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:24 AM

Oh my, oh dear, I wonder if they resent my flying the flag of St. George? Whatever shall I do? (I think some of you can guess)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM

I think that may be a bit unfair, Ruth. I can well understand your reaction but on reading MC's notes I don't think we can blame the landlord really. Family always comes first and putting them above customers in a potentialy threatening situation is what I would have done too. Still a sad day for us all though:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM

D el G: My entire message was from Abi, the event organiser.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:29 AM

Thanks Ruth - I thought the last be was yours - Sorry! I rephrase my comment - I think Abi may be being a bit unfair etc.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:33 AM

Then there's the startling news that the BNP is being sued by Marmite for using the Marmite logo in the BNP election broadcast. If it wasn't so funny it would be hilarious.

sounds very appropriate. You either love them/it or you hate them/it.

put me down for the latter, (twice).

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:45 AM

Just ot of interest. Since the moratorium on discusing right wing politics there have been some interesting developments on the other 'mudcats'.

Hot of the press from Belollocks (long may they live) -

Ruth Archer

Dave, My entire message was from Abi Gibbens the event organiser. He didn't arrive at the event, he spent the week with Joan Crump...

It continues but is not worth the effort.

It also appears that they have won a great victory at the Mudcat -

Helen Treacy

Dave,
I was just talking to my friend in Surrey, and she said as a week has passed without anything negative against the BNP said on mudcat that Tom,Vic, Irene, Tam, Gervase Jeri,Kat, Bruce, Les and John are all leaving for a well earned rest, I hope they enjoy it. I wish the others could join them. Such a pity Dave wouldn't take a rest and enjoy some time with family.

Love as always
Helen.

Nice to see people so in touch with reality:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:54 AM

Dave, it's so nice of you to re-publish what they write and spread the word. I'm sure they thank you from the bottom of what they're using for hearts. Nice volunteer work for them.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 10:06 AM

Jeri - Sod off.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:22 PM

I don't have "sympathy" with the landlord. He should have told the BNP to sod off, and told the police what he had done and why. That's what they are there for. To keep public order.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:51 PM

Yep - OK. Maybe I was a bit unfair on Abi as well. On reflection the landlord did make a bad decision. I am not sure if I would have done any better on the spur of the moment. I like to think so but I don't really know. He should have gone ahead and he will probably regret the decision now. I still sympathise with him as he had a tough choice to make but I can see, with th ebenefit of hindsight, how it was the wrong one.

Cheers

DeF

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 01:32 PM

Just call me Dave the Fencesitter from now on... :-)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 04:27 PM

for the record... I do not have a Bebo account. I don;t know who Helen Treacy is nor do i care.

Also for the record having already heard of the shut down of one mudcatter's folk club due to fear of BNP retaliation, I can understand why this pub owner chose not to risk that threat. I wouldn't want the filth getting anywhere near touching my children either. If the family live on the same premises as the pub, what kind of danger does that put those kids in? Doesn't matter if it is probably an idle threat as these cowardly dick heads are wont to make. Just not worth it.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:24 PM

Makes a change to find myself in full agreeement The Echo , but as long as they are allowed to get away with it the Idiots will use their Scare Tactics to stop other publicans excercising their rights .

    The police should ave been informed IMMEDIATELY !

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: MC Fat
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:13 AM

Givw the chap a break.He has a young family and lives on the premises. This particular landlord supports live music. He has bands on Fri Sat and sometimes Sun, a comedy club did have a Folk Session till last Novembers. Supported the last Sheffield Folk Festival. The desicion will not have been taken lightly.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:17 AM

I can't help feeling the landlord may come to regret his decision. If the BNP now have him marked down as someone they can push around, they'll be back. It would be better to offer him support than condemnation.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:46 AM

Given the interest the police usually show in BNP threats and tha fact that even if the police were interested they could not escort the landlord's family 24/7 I think the landlord was very wise. It does however show the nature of the BNP ever more clearly.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:48 AM

Department of interesting coincidences. I got down to one of our local FAF events last night to find the gig had almost been cancelled. Turned out one of the bar staff received an anonymous phone call from some gutless wonder saying there would be violence if the event went ahead.

Fortunately the manager knew perfectly well there wouldn't be and told the bloke to f**k off.

The gig went ahead and it turned out to be very successful. The pub sold a lot of pints, it raised quite a bit of money, and we made some very useful contacts. And of course there was no bother at all.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 06:21 AM

Leaving aside all question of FAF - I think it is exceedingly worrying in the run-up to a General Election if an event which has nothing to do with the election is cancelled because of threats of violence from a party seeking to have candidates elected. This puts our country in the same league as other countries where the electoral system is at risk from thugs, bullies and blackmailers. The police should definitely have been informed and this whole sorry saga should be given press coverage so that anyone considering voting for the BNP can be fully informed about the nature of the party.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 06:57 AM

But has he made them any safer by giving in to them? What will they "ask" him to do next?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 07:15 AM

"Whilst FAF and the BNP are busy fighting each other, people are getting worried that it will only lead to voilence and innocent people getting hurt."

Let's get something absolutely clear: FAF is not "fighting" anyone. We are not affiliated with any organisations which advocate violent protest, and there has been NO violence at any FAF event. No innocent people are getting hurt.

The BNP and its supporters threaten violence against anyone who dares to speak out against them. These are the politics of violence, intimidation and fear. Surely in a democracy, a "legitimate" political party should not being tactics of intimidation in order to silence any opposing views. Members of the folk community have the choice to get involved, or not.

"Don't make folk music the reason for trying to defeat them."

Umm, who is? Visit the website. Find out what FAF is actually doing before you start telling us that we shouldn't be doing it. FAF was started to repel the attempts of the BNP to make folk music and culture a part of its tidy little package of Englishness, which it is trying to sell wholesale to a disaffected electorate. FAF essentially exists to say, "Not in our name". Within that is an implicit abhorrance of everything the BNP stands for, and a fear that their twisted nationalism will, if unchecked, take root and poison the culture and the music that we love. But folk is not being used as a tool with which to fight them - instead, FAF is simply saying "hands off".

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 08:36 AM

Good. With the unlamented departure of this orthographically- and grammatically-challenged Guest who couldn't even be bothered to look at a webpage and find out what FaF is, perhaps the facts can be extricated from the idiotic fantasies. The BNP threatened the landlord with "bad news", not a gun and firebomb attack on residents under his roof. And this means what? That the BNP will take their custom elsewhere? Sounds like good news to me. If it happens.

What is bad news is that some people can condone intimidation for the sake of what? A quiet life? That's the last outcome such a landlord will get, having rolled over so pathetically and given in to fascists who are now likely to stroll in and take over the pub.

Local people have missed out on a great night of music, and possibly lost a pub they can never visit again. A pub landlord I knew once long ago let the meeting room to the local fascists. The very same room was used weekly for our club. We picketed the pub and the fascists didn't hold their meeting. And we told the landlord that if he ever pulled the same trick again, the club would move. He didn't.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 08:40 AM

I am someone who lives near the pub and was intending to go to the event.

I confess to a certain amount of ambivalence. I agree with Jim about the landlord's fear for his young family and of course I agree that comes first.

On the other hand I feel it is wrong to give in to bully boys and as Diane says police are there for such occasions. What would the landlord do if he got a message asking for protection money?

The one good thing is that some of the artists believe that the resultant publicity has done the BNP as much harm as good.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 11:49 AM

""The one good thing is that some of the artists believe that the resultant publicity has done the BNP as much harm as good.""

While I tend to agree with some of what you say Dave, this comment would only be true if that publicity were being disseminated across a much broader spectrum than the local rag, and a fairly obscure folk music forum.

It isn't enough to stop one local candidate. That is why we all need to pester our would-be representatives, of all parties, and in all areas of the country.

I've already had a go at both main party candidates, and am planning to rattle the LibDem's cage, and the Greens.

If enough people shout loudly enough in their ears, they just may begin to understand what is meant by "Harrassment", and do something.

It will take all of us to make a dent in their indifference.

Same procedure for the national "Meejah".

Don T.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

It's appalling that such intimidation should be successful. This sort of acquiescence is what made possible the rise of fascism in Hitler's Germany.

For evil to succeed, all it needs is good folks doing nothing. Which is exactly what the bastards count on.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM

what made possible the rise of fascism in Germany?
well a number of things,
1, somebody had to finance, Hitler.
2,succesful propoganda,Goebbels believed in publicity,whether it was good or bad,he believed that if you told a lie ofen enough people would believe it.
it wasnt just people acquiescing that made Hitler successful,although that was acontributory factor.
Hitlers rallies had to be financed,they were financed by capitalists wgho saw Hitler as a useful way of dealing with communism.
anti communism is even to be seen on this forum,where some months ago Guest Ralphie,described the Morning Star as a commie rag.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:19 PM

For evil to succeed, all it needs is good folks doing nothing.

Amen, Michael - I hope everyone understands this message.

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 04:00 PM

Smiler, having seen what else you say I am sad you agreed with me.

There are two causes that badly need people to stand up against the BNP. Such stances never make things worse.

The two causes are to repel the BNP from using folk music as a twisted mirror of their preferred all-white society and to repel them full stop.

Few of of us are justified in criticising the landlord who put safety first, much as we might have preferred that he had not. The few who might take a superior stance would be those who have actually stood up against fascist threats, but there aren't many of the international brigade left now are there?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 04:29 PM

"What we don't need is people to tell us how we should deal with such shocking issues. Help yes."

Smiler, I now know who you are. I agree - I would not condemn the landlord personally. When you are threatened by thugs, it can be very distressing and no one can tell you the "right" way is to respond.

At the end of last week I brought a number of things to the attention of people who are well placed to help us to publicise the bullying and intimidation that many have been suffering as a result of simply supporting FAF. It isn't on, and I look forward to watchinging all of this shit score a spectacular PR own-goal for the BNP. It will be most pleasing just before the election. And hopefully the resulting media attention will ensure that the police start to take it all very seriously indeed.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 11:21 PM

Oh really? I don't know who the smiling anonymous guest is and I deplore being addressed personally by my first name (albeit misspelled in common with the rest of the hysterical outpourings) by someone who does not know me nor of my involvement in anti-fascism and music, often simultaneously, since the 1970s.

On the basis of what I know, I continue to blame the Sheffield landlord entirely. Such behaviour is pathetic and dangerous. As is that of someone who starts up a venue, finds it isn't making them money and chucks in the towel and looks around for someone else to blame.

You oppose fascism or you don't. (Source: a foreign editor with whom I worked for many years who had been at Cable Street and then went out to Spain with the International Brigades).

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 12:16 AM

St George was a Roman soldier who was martyred for adhering to his Christianity before it became the state religion after Constantine.

You can't blame the landlord it's not his fight and it's his family and his living, he shouldn't be the martyr and maybe he didn't realise the implications of this particular St George's Day event. .

Now if the show was in a public venue or the open air and billed explicitly for what its purpose is, like the rallies of the 30s and Rock against Racism that would be different.
My dad went to jail for fighting Mosley's fascists in the street and went out to Spain too. Sticking a badge on a guitar may not be enough

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 01:51 AM

Please remember that NO Guest posts are allowed on threads having to do with the BNP or Folk Against Fascism. I have deleted a number of Guest posts from this thread. If you want to post, you must be logged in.
No exceptions.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:00 AM

Diane, you may have the courage to risk life and limb, and indeed the life and limb of your family, and I would admire that. But I do not expect it of everybody.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:24 AM

Diane, the landlord was asked if the orgsanisers could hold a gig in his pub. He has a young family. He was threatened with "trouble" if the gig went ahead. People respond in lots of different ways to these kinds of threats, and if the gig is happening effectively in your home, as is the case with a pub, it's easy to feel you are exposing your family to risk.

It's not a nice decision to have to make, and perhaps his reaction was knee-jerk and disproportionate to the expressed threat, but I still can't find it in me to condemn him for it. With the greatest of respect, I'm not sure how your own experience of fighting fascism in the 70s is relevant. The landlord is not a campaigner - he simply agreed to host a gig. While giving in may lead the BNP to think that they've won, it's important that the news of what happened is spread as widely as possible, as exposing the BNP's tactics shows them for the nasty thugs they are, despite claims to the contrary.



mikesamwild, the landlord did know what sort of gig it was. The leaflets stated very clearly that the event was a Folk Against Fascism/Hope not Hate gig. There are all kinds of ways of defeating the current threat from the BNP. FAF is an awareness-raising campaign. No one is suggesting that stickers on guitars are going to defeat fascism, but if they do the job they were intended for - helping artists to repel attempts by the BNP to hijack their music in a very public way - they will have contributed to undermining this current BNP tactic of attempting to cloak itself in respectability and legitimacy.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:27 AM

Sorry, I think I was one of the guests - I couldn't be bothered logging in for a quick visit and had forgotten 'twasn't allowed.

Trying to stick to just facts, as I am one of the people who would have attended.

'Sticking a badge on a guitar may not be enough ' -I agree, which is why I was going!!

'Now if the show was in a public venue or the open air and billed explicitly for what its purpose is...'

In a public bar. No admission fee. And the publicity stated: (sorry I can't do font sizes etc)

                  HOPE NOT HATE
                      and
             Folk against Fascism (in large red letters)
                  
                   present
               A St Georges Eve
       English Folk Night Celebration


Now for opinion. I too am sympathetic towards the landlord, who remember was given FALSE INFORMATION about the gig (but who didn't check with the organiser). At the same time I do wonder what he would say to his kids if they were threatened by a school bully and caved in.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:00 AM

Joan, my response was addressed to a snivelling anonymous "smiling" Guest who had launched a gratuitous attack specifically on you and me, telling us that we "didn't know what we were talking about". This has since been removed, possibly before you saw it.

My mention of activism in the 70s was a reference to when this struggle was last a big issue and my account of how a pub landlord was dissuaded from letting his premises to a fascist group an illustration of the other side of the coin. Certainly we raised his consciousness (or at least drew his attention to loss of profit if his pub were boycotted as a music venue).

Concurrently, Rock Against Racism had limited success then sunk below the horizon. Job not yet done so FaF and Hope Not Hate need to step into the breach. I was yards away from where Kevin Gately was murdered during an anti-fascist demonstration in Red Lion Square and similarly close to where Blair Peach died in Southall. If anyone started telling me it would be "understandable" if I scaled down my anti-fascist stance I'd deck them.

Wearing badges is not enough.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:56 AM

Given that Guest post will be deleted, I quote: "If you don't cave in to the school bully, you get beaten up. Ask any victim."

That doesn't make bullying right, or mean no-one should stand up to bullies.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:57 AM

meanwhile Nick Griffin has compared Barking to Nairobi, this gives a whole new slant on Barking, all I can say is he must be Barking.,or could he be up Barking creek without a paddle.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:28 AM

The Police should have been informed and remember this state of affairs could spread as clearly these threads give a location re pub ,field weekend etc.

The Landlord should have informed the police and then the brewery and then carried on with the event.

I hope future events will not succumb to this intimidation and Nazi Brown shirt tactics.

I am a non Fascist but I put this to you all?

Who is the more Fascist ?

The Fascist, or the non fascist who tells people and slags people off about who they should and should not vote for?                "Simples"

To the BMP stay away you are not folk in regards to these events and I ask non fascists to stop throwing stones at the pit balls.
Regards
Pierre.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:34 AM

On Sheffield Forum the thread seems to have been blocked to further debate, strange!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:45 AM

It it very easy to be brave on someone's behalf.

I have no problem with the landlord erring on the side of caution given the Police's very poor record in responding to threats of intimidation.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 09:05 AM

I agree but I fear for future events that such things has above will become all the rage.
a blind man can see that?

The police have enough to contend with anti social behavior do we want our events over policed and our folk pub sessions banned. because although the BMP cannot be ignored this TIT for TAT Laurel and Hardy par-larva with get out of hand clearly and the authorities will clamped down on the Events not the BMP I work for the War museum in London and have done so for nearly 12 years and history is showing a repetition on a minute scale and that is worrying.
Look back through history

The police should be informed with out doubt the fact they wont react I believe is a government issue.
regards Pierre.

Bloody Parlarva

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM

My partner ran a pub and got into trouble and was threatened by a criminal family . Despite lots of evidence the police were no use and she dropped the proceedings to protect her nearest and dearest..

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

the Police are very useful when it comes to raising revenue,for the government.
enforcing speeding fines,checking out of date car tax etc etc.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:40 PM

For what it's worth, there is a village near Manchester (UK) called Partington, and there used to be two pubs in the centre.

A few years ago, drug pushers took offence at the two respective landlords' attempts to bar them from undertaking their activities on their premises, and the nett result (vandalism and arson) was that both pubs had to close, and have since been demolished.

The Police and other public authorities were powerless to prevent this happening...

Yes, you can accuse the Sheffield landlord of being spineless, but it's better than the possible alternative...

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM

So we just throw in the towel and hand over the country to the BNP and the drug pushers?