What's this chord?

Subject: What's this chord?
From: Scorpio
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:07 PM

I often use a chord in blues guitar which I call ( for want of a better name) 'high A7'. Counting from the 6th string, it goes: 002225. What is it?

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: nager
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:10 PM

Eh?

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: mike gouthro
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:14 PM

It's a standard A chord. The note to make it a 7th is not in the 002225 pattern.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:26 PM

Nope. Not any kind of an A7. It's just a straight A chord (A major).

The notes you have, from bottom to top, are open E, open A, then, another E (4th string, 2nd fret), another A (3rd string, 2nd fret), a C# (2nd string, 2nd fret) and yet another A (1st string, 5th fret).

The triad (three notes) that define an A major chord are A, C#, and E. You can repeat those same three notes till hell freezes over and it's still an A major chord. Nuthin' fancier than that. And you can take any combination of A, C#, and E and put it anyplace on the fingerboard, and it's still an A major chord.

An A7 consists of A, C#, E, and G (four notes). With that general configuration, you'd find the G on the 1st string, 3rd fret.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:51 PM

You can get what the kids today call a 'power chord' by doing

002255

That will give you just Es and As in the chord (the C# is implied). However, because you don't have the third, you can use that as the A (maj) or the Am.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:15 PM

It's
The Lost Chord?

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:51 AM

Way back in the old days we called the chord that Scorpio describes the "long A" to distinguish it from the standard "short A" (002220) that most folk guitarists played. One advantage of a long A was the distinctive sound of the three tonic notes, especially the high a note (1st string, 5th fret). Another advantage was the ease with which you could quickly change between A, Amaj7, A7, A6, and A modal (the power chord Peace describes), just by moving your pinky while maintaining the open 5th and 6th strings for bass. That's why blues musicians love it.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:59 AM

Damn there goes another evening of telly watching!
Now I gotta sit and practice "A"
How many more bloody chords are there?
I already spent a year each
on:-
C,d,g,f,e,B7.
Is there no end to this nightmare they call the guitar?
LOL
Thanks for asking the questions and giving the answers
Is a very positive side to the cat

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM

Tim - Just be thankful its Folk music , where you can get away with major , minor and seventh chords , and NOT worry too much about the Augmenteds and diminished s , let alone the Ninths and Flatted thirteenths and other meaningless things

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:58 AM

And when you think you've got standard tuning cold, you can change to an alternate tuning and start all over again. :)

CC

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM

Are u sure u didn't mean 00224 -this would give you A major 7th.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM

Janice in NJ:

Question for you if you'd be so kind.

Modal: Are chords only modal when they are 'less' than a triad? That is, would it be an E chord if the two notes in it were E and C#? Or is the 'modality' dependent on having the first and fifth?

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:50 AM

other tunings?
Whadya mean other tunings?
There are only 6 strings on mine and they are staying in standard for at least the next 40 years.
Gibber gibber Amajor what?
You lot are mad!
when am I supposed to get time to play the bloody thing if you lot keep making up new chords/tunings/techniques
LOL

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Nick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:08 PM

>>Are u sure u didn't mean 00224 -this would give you A major 7th.

It would also mean you've got one of your strings missing :)

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:20 PM

The "power chord" is A5 - that's what Peace described.

Chords aren't modal, only the scale (and hence the melody or chord progression). However modal tunes aren't tied to major and minor, which means ambiguity about whether it's major or minor is good (and often compulsory). Fifth chords don't have a third to make it major or minor (eg. Peace's A5 which is EAEAEA, without a C for A minor or C# for A major) which makes them useful when you want that ambiguity.

Graham.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM

Ah, yes, the "Long A." I first learned it as part of my effort to master that fingerpickers test-of-manhood/rite-of-passage, Mississippi John Hurt's "Candyman."

The Long A is not nearly the most difficult chord in that song, though ~ that distinction belongs to the inverted E7 I've heard called "The Spider Chord": 020135, if I'm not mistaken.

A nice riff based on Long A, when employed as the "V" chord in key-of-E blues, is to use the ring finger to alternate between 002225 and 002425 (and 002223, to, if you have it in ya).

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

"Is there no end to this nightmare they call the guitar?"

Nope. I've been plugging away at it for fifty-six years, and if I live long enough and am very, very lucky, someday I may learn how to play the damned thing!

By the way, there is no such thing as a "modal chord." A mode is a type of scale. You would need to use a different set of chords to accompany a song in a modal scale (which set would depend on the mode), but the individual chords would be the same as those you already know.

I can elaborate on this if anyone wants.

And I should also point out that if there are only two notes (say, A and E) this does not constitute a chord, no matter how many times you double the A and E. It's a "dyad." It take three different notes to make a chord.

We've been over this same ground many times before and people (usually folk singers who have had no formal musical training) keep telling me that's wrong. But not so. A chord—by definition—is made up of three or more notes.

People may use the term "power chord," but strictly speaking it's not really a chord. That doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't use it when it works.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM

Ooops, not 002425 ~ 004225 is how you play that alternating-bass note on the Long A.

Tom (at work, with only an imagined guitar to work with)

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM

That "long A" (and the A "power chord") goes well with a D chord where you keep the little finger holding down that high A (200235) - which is a "power D chord", though I prefer to call them Dyads. (Well, it's a pretty word and always makes me think of Dryads. "Power chord" sounds a touch headbanging.)

It makes it easier to play them if your hands aren't too big, especially at first, if you capo up a couple of frets. (Of course then they are different chords.)

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

People may use the term "power chord," but strictly speaking it's not really a chord. That doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't use it when it works.
correct.
but usage can mean it becomes acceptable,thats how language evolves and changes

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM

Technically, from a music-theory point of view, I understand the difference between a "dyad" ands a "chord."

Practically, from a semi-educated guitar player's point of view, it seesm to me that any combination of notes created by pressing fingers upon fingerboard in a certain shape or pattern can quite sensibly be called a "chord."

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:08 PM

To a guitarist, perhaps, but not to musicians in general.

The problem is that "chord" is a technical term that has been used by centuries of musicians to mean "a triad (three notes) comprised of a root, a third, and a fifth, sometimes with one or more additional notes." This is a term used by musicians, composers, musicologists, professors in schools of music, and by the vast majority of music teachers to mean a specific thing, as defined above.

When a particular group of self-taught but otherwise untrained musicians (often proud of the fact that they are "untainted" by formal training), begin using a musical term in a way that is not accepted by the vast majority of what are usually referred to as "serious" musicians, worldwide, this is hardly "common usage," and the chances of its actually becoming sufficiently widespread to be considered "common usage" are practically nil.

Calling an apple an orange doesn't make it an orange. It's still an apple. If you can get enough people to agree on a change of terminology, then okay. But I seriously doubt that will happen.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:08 PM

Don, you are absolutely right. On one level, there is no argument or refutation. But I'm gonna argue anyway ~ what else is Mudcat for?

When a young player asks me, "Can you show me that chord you used?," I am NOT going to respond by correcting him, "that wasn't a chord, it was a dyad."

Now, maybe after showing him, if he seems interested and intelligent enough to even care, I might add, parenthetically, that the combnation of notes in question would be more properly described as a dyad.

Hell, there are players here on this forum who tune their instruments to a dyad ~ more often four-stringed instruments (GDGD, for example), but sometimes even guitars. (I wouldn't know much about that, since I play almost exclusively in standard guitar tuning ~ as I suppose you do, too, as a classical type.)

"Calling an apple an orange doesn't make it an orange. It's still an apple. If you can get enough people to agree on a change of terminology, then okay. But I seriously doubt that will happen."

Well, I disagree that this is a matter of apples and oranges ~ more like Macintooshes and Granny Smiths. I also think that this "change of terminology," or actually "relaxation of definition," has already happened. Among stringed-intrument players (if not among composers, pianists, and other trained musicians), the term "chord" already applies equally to the shape/configuration of fingers (as often illustrated by a "chord chart") and to the combination of notes. While something like 002255 may fall short of the technical definition of a chord, to the person trying to make his hand fall into that shape on his instrument, it is every bit as much a "chord" as is 002225.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:45 PM

Now I gotta sit and practice "A"
How many more bloody chords are there?
I already spent a year each
on:-
C,d,g,f,e,B7.

I wouldn't worry about learning "A" Tim. You can get "A" from most of the chords you've been working on. What do you think capos are for?

DC

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:52 PM

Agreed. In the somewhat "informal" way that a lot of guitarists use the term (a particular "finger shape" placed somewhere on the fingerboard), it shouldn't be a problem. It's when we start getting into the actual musical details of what we're doing that it can lead to confusion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:58 PM

But "dyad" is a more graceful word. And it makes you sound more musically knowledgeable. But then I suppose "power chord" is better if you don't do "graceful" and don't want to sound musically knowledgeable.

I wonder if there one word that officially covers both chords and dyads?

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM

Many years back a friend (who is today a very accomplished guitarist/musician) had asked me to sing at a summer camp he went to. I think I was 20 and he was 15. I agreed to go and did. At the camp he asked if it would be OK to accompany me. I agreed but said, "No 13ths, 11ths, 9ths, 7ths, 6ths or flatted 3rds in this song. NONE, got it?" He said he did, wouldn't and didn't.

He and I played together on some songs recently, and he told me that story. He also said, "It was an easy promise to keep because I had NO idea what any of those things were."

FYI

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:36 PM

A word that covers both chords and dyads?

Hmm. None I'm aware of. There is, of course, the word "interval," which refers to just two notes, but if you start doubling the notes, I don't thing it's still considered just an interval.

There is another situation which is really iffy. In doing four-part harmony exercises in first year theory, in the beginning we were supposed to limit ourselves to using triads. But since there were four parts, at least one of the three notes of the triad had to be doubled. So we were told that it was preferable to double the root. But if that was impossible, the next best choice was to double the 5th. But should one be in a real bind (writing oneself into a musical corner, so to speak) one could triple the root, which meant that you might have three roots and one 3rd. But no 5th. Because the 3rd is a powerful note in the triad (it defines whether the chord is major or minor), we were told to avoid doubling it even if we had to drop the 5th. And it was still regarded as a chord! So, apparently, keeping the 3rd is essential to a pile of notes being regarded as a chord, whereas just the root and 5th is regarded as incomplete.

One some instruments, such as the guitar, multiple 3rds in the chords don't sound all that overwhelming, so they're okay.

The Prof told us at the beginning that for the first year or two we'd be learning the rules, and some of the rules may seem overly strict. But these rules were things that centuries of music had solidly established as "working." The problem, of course, was that if one slavishly followed the rules, one would turn out some pretty pedestrian music. But, he said, don't despair. After we had learned the rules, we would be taught how to break them. But by then, when we broke a rule, we would know why we were breaking it.

Nothing at all wrong with "power chords" or "dyads" if they sound good in what you're doing. That means they're "working," and that's the true test.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: GUEST,Al no cookie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

I wonder if Don Firth ever says ain't, cain't, or tain't.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

Nice one nager! That should of course have ended the discussion but you can't keep a good Mudcatter down.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:05 PM

Nope. Ain't said nuthin' like that in a dog's age. I've had a proper fetchin' up.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

A right good fetchin' up, too.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:10 AM

"I wonder if there one word that officially covers both chords and dyads?"

Noise!   :-)


"when am I supposed to get time to play the bloody thing if you lot keep making up new chords/tunings/techniques"

Now if you want simplicity - play a keyboard! And you can push down ANY number of ANY notes you want at the same time - much easier to make noise! :-)

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:50 AM

Ah-hah! I spot a new mudcat debate. When we have finished "what is folk?" (for which I am happy to adopt Don's argument above), we can take a break with "What's a chord?".

Hours of extra fun!

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:13 AM

Oh, another A I use a fair bit is 007650. It makes a nice jangly set with D 500775 and G 320033. It's particularly stonking on a 12-string. An Em to go with those is 0 (10) 9000

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:23 AM

I prefer 079000

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:04 AM

McGrath, isn't that the phone number for Battersea Dog's Home?

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:54 AM

To answer Peace's question: "Modal: Are chords only modal when they are 'less' than a triad? That is, would it be an E chord if the two notes in it were E and C#? Or is the 'modality' dependent on having the first and fifth?"

I was using the term "A modal chord" in the informal way it is often used among folk musicians, meaning playing a configuration containing only a and e notes, the first (tonic) and the fifth, without the third (c or c#). That can be done when playing the long A so the pinky holds down both the first and second strings on the fifth fret, like so: 002255.

Dyad would be the more accurate term than chord. To me, a configuartion of notes with only the dyad of e and b would constitute an "E modal chord" in this informal sense.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

E and C#? Or E and G#?

Stu

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:01 PM

Dc what do you think capos r 4?
Well Doug a few of us last Tuesday decided they would be adequate
for the purpose of breaking a certain clever multi instrumentalists all too clever fingers.
You were brilliant MC for the night
Enjoyed it muchly.
Cheers
Tim

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Nick
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

I like x07600

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM

Then there's 079900

Thus is getting a bit like the story of the comedians with the collection of numbered jokes,and they'd sit around calling out the numbers and falling around laughing. (With the punchline being when some outsider comes in and calls out a number and they are stonefaced. "Why didn't anyone laugh?" "It all depends on the way you tell 'em.")

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM

Then there's 1 3 5 7 9 11

I don't know what it is, but it hurts like hell tryin' to do it!

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:11 PM

Here ya go. OUCH!!

Scroll down and get a load of the late French classic guitarist, Ida Presti!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:26 PM

Quote from Deltabluestips - "Don't worry about fancy names for chords; means ****all if you can't play"

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Bee
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:53 PM

"other tunings?
Whadya mean other tunings?
There are only 6 strings on mine and they are staying in standard for at least the next 40 years.
Gibber gibber Amajor what?
You lot are mad!
when am I supposed to get time to play the bloody thing if you lot keep making up new chords/tunings/techniques
LOL " - Tim Leaning

I'm going to paste this on my Epiphone D100 for the next time my far too accomplished friend comes to visit with his damn big pretty Lowden.

I can't play anything right this week anyway. I was just wailing away to another friend this morning, on the phone. I suddenly can't play a tune I could a month ago, I hate this set of strings and they won't wear out, my guitar sounds boxy, the action's too high, my fingers hurt, and we still have March and April to live through, if you can call it living. She laughed at me. Whut friends are for.

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:50 PM

And there was I thinking a dyad was a wood nymph ... ;)

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM

That's a dryad. The dyad is a wood nymph that lives in the soundboards of guitars.

You heard it here first!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Mysha
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM

Hi,

Scorpio: If you want a minor 7th in that long A (002225), you could make it 002025 (but you need bigger hands than me to play that).

Peace: I think that's called "odd".

The triad built from a 1st, 3rd and 5th is called a "common chord", but that's not because only triads are chords. Dyads and tryads are all chords. And don't mix things up, or you'll make Sue Allan's dryads angry.

Don: In the tuning all of us are used to, 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th all are quite harmonical. But the 3rds aren't quite right. We can hear them being somewhat out of key as we play them too high (major) or too low (minor), and this is what gives the chord its character. But if you were to double the 3rd, you'd stress that it's out of key, often not a good thing to do.

McGrath: I once told a non-folky friend of mine that he really ought to try visiting a session. He did, but he told me afterwards it was the weirdest thing he had ever been to. Someone would shout out a number, and sometimes a few others would shout the same number, and then the rest applauded. This went on without pause for half an hour, so he asked one of them what was going on. "Well", the guy told him, "We've had the same group of musicians for so long, that everyone of us can now play every piece of music we ever brought to the session. So, instead of playing the pieces, we've numbered them, and the player just calls what he would play. A few of us may join in, and then we applaud the performance. We now can fit in many more pieces into one evening." So my friend asked: "Can I try that?" "Sure", said the guy, "Go ahead." And my friend called "42". He was greeted with massive round of silence. So he asked the man: "Why aren't they applauding like for the others?" "You know, that's the thing about folk music", the man replied: "You have to know how to play it."

First one to tell me what chord this is: 000000; was quicker than the rest. Better still if you can tell me a song that starts that way.

BFN
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: What's this chord?
From: Nick
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:48 PM

Hard days Night - A11