Folklore: Do counties matter?

Subject: BS: Do counties matter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:19 AM

I was listening to the Tommy Sands song "Come home to the County Down" (and if anyone's got the words, let's have them), and it just occurred to me that whereas in Ireland the normal thing is to talk about "the County Down" or "the County Galway", no one in England that I've ever heard would say "the County Yorkshire" or "the County Devon" and so forth, in that way.

And that set me speculating about what Americans would say when talking about their counties, And that set me wondering whether over there people feel about counties in the same way as they do in Ireland or England. In many ways the sense of loyalty to a county here can sometimes rival or even be stronger than to the nation as a whole. And that makes sense, because counties are more on a human scale, unlike most countries, even in Europe. Does this apply in America, with loyalty to county sometimes rivalling loyalty to State?

Every county in Ireland probably has songs specifically about it; and the same applies to quite a number of English counties. I've heard a few songs about States in the USA, but never about counties. Is it just that they don't travel? Or can it be people don't write them?

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:28 AM

WV traditional musicians have a strong sense of county affiliation. It can be fun to hear Clay County musicians (e.g., Wilson Douglas) talk about Braxton County musicians (e.g. Ernie Carpenter) talk about Pocahontas County musicians (e.g., Eddn & Burl Hammons) as if they are from a different planet. If you are familiar with the music you can hear the stylistic differences even though they all sound like WV fiddlers. This sense of county affiliation carries over in a lesser degree to the indigenous population (as opposed to tourists, retirees, and carpetbaggers) as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:37 AM

Emphesis on counties seems to be a southern thing here. Where I live they hardly matter at all. In fact, I think county government is redundant.
Now states, that's different.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:57 AM

Depends upon the part of the country. In Wisconsin where I grew up, the county government handled a lot of major events in your life, from the draft Board to many different kinds of records and licensing.
As a kid, and growing up in the county seat, the most important thing about a county was the County Fair. Wrote a song about it.. "When you wake up in the morning, you can feel it in the air. It's time again for the County Fair." For Farm kids, the 4-H Clubs were all identified by county. Kids in my county were members of the Rock County 4-H.

Here in Connecticut, I've been good friends for much of my adult life with a couple who lived in the town where I worked. A few years ago, Betsy was hired as Executive Director of the Fairfield County Co-operative Foundation. Her first job was to figure out where the boundaries of Fairfield County are, and it took a little doing. I lived in Fairfield County (and there is no fair, and precious few fields) for over 30 years, and had no idea where it stopped and the next county started. As far as I could ever find out, there was no county "Seat." The only reference to Fairfield COunty I ever saw in the papers was that the cost of living was the highest of any county in the Nation. I would have preferred a Fair, myself.

When we retired, I had one requirement. I wanted to get out of Fairfield County. Funny thing is, I can almost see Fairfield County out of our windows. Cut down a few trees and take down a couple of houses, and I could. I just have to drive about a mile and a half and I'm there. And sure enough, the town right next to ours, separated just by a river, is much more expensive to live in. And we have a farm in our twon, just a short walk away.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 09:25 AM

Where I live, in Albuquerque, New Mexico (southwestern US), its a matter of different constituancies. Albuquerque (the city) has a primarily urban population and the issues city government concentrates on are different from the rural ones that most concern Bernalillo (the county).    There was a referandum last fall on a merger between the two, and city votes were primarily "FOR" (as in "we know what's best for everybody") and people in the county were almost all "AGAINST" ("oh, no you don't"). The final outcome was no merger, since state law requires a majority of both populations.

Remember that here counties are a US overlay on a Spanish structure, which had incorporated (or replaced, after destroying) the older Indian towns. The families of many members of the Spanish population have been here much longer than the United States has existed (and they are not Mexican!). Loyalty to counties is a lot less likely here than in older (in Anglo-American terms) parts of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: gnomad
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 09:39 AM

Just reading the comment that inter-county rivalry seems to be a southern phenomenon in the States, it strikes me that in the UK it seems very strong in the north. The feelings between Lincolnshire and Yorkshire, or between Yorkshire and Lancashire seem to be exceeded only by the feelings in these counties about all places south of the Wash.

Oh, and just to show how every rule in English has at least one exception, we do refer to County Durham. I can't think of another such.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 10:50 AM

There are no counties in Alaska. Some of the more populated areas are organized into Boroughs, Anchorage is incorporated as a municipality, but most of the state has no local government whatsoever. Alaska is almost three times the size of Texas and is spread over what would normally be four time zones, and yet we have just over 600,000 people living here.

There are distinct geographical areas of the state that people seem to identify with (Southeast Panhandle, Interior, Kenai, Mat-Su, North Slope, Yukon-Kuskoquim Delta, Aleutian Chain, Bristol Bay, Pribilofs, etc.) There is also a rivalry between those living in the "bush" and city folks. But there is a fierce loyalty from most of the citizens to this state called "The Last Frontier". We fight amoungst ourselves all the time, but band together if anyone criticizes us from outside.

Camai,
Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:19 AM

For many US people, the only apparent difference between city and county governments is that if you live in the city the cop cars are blue and white. If you live in the county the sheriff's department's cars are green and white. It sounds just the same when either of them comes knocking on your door.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:31 AM

It's called 'County Durham' so it's not muddled with Durham, the county town.

We do have a large amount of counties whose names are similar to the county town (Lincoln & Lincolnshire, Hereford & Herefordshire to name but two) so the addition of the word 'shire' could indicate county.

Mind you, I remember reading that a 'shire' has to be given that title - Devon has it but Dorset doesn't. The Dorsetshire Regiment was told to remove the 'shire' from its' name sometime after WWII but before its amalgumation with the Devonshire Regiment in 1959.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Ed.
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:01 PM

This page says that The Dorsetshire Regiment became The Dorset Regiment on the 23rd of June, 1951.

It offers no explanation as to why.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM

I'm in Indiana, specifically Indianapolis. I can't really speak very knowledgeably about other Indiana counties, but for practical purposes Marion County, in which Indianapolis is situated, has disappeared.

About, what, thirty years (?) ago, Indianapolis and Marion County were joined in what is called Uni-Gov. The municipal government is the same for both--one mayor, one city-county council, etc.

Before I moved to Indianapolis, 43 years ago, I was from Minnesota. My home town, Rochester, Minnesota (of Mayo Clinic fame) is in Olmsted County. Certainly no-one that I knew thought of themselves as "Olmstedians". It might be that the rural people had that sort of orientation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:18 PM

I think they do matter. They keep the peace and enforce the law in Canada. True, they had their horses taken away, but for all that, they do a reasonably fine job protecting Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 02:29 PM

No, brucie... we're talking about counties, not Mounties..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM

Only US county that comes immediately to mind in an American song is "Carroll County" in "Ode to Billy Joe"

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: freightdawg
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 02:50 PM

I share living in Albuquerque with Art Brooks and agree with him completely about counties in New Mexico. For the most part they are vast expanses of land, mostly covered with scrub brush and cactus (south) or huge mountain ranges (north). I had not connected it to the local indigenous cultures, but that makes a lot of sense. In Texas, however, the counties are much smaller and run like little fiefdoms (sp.?). The county judge is the be-all and end-all of all things politic, and the county sheriff might as well be God (or his lieutenant.) When weather warnings are issued they are issued according to county lines, not major cities. Makes it dreadfully difficult to know if a tornado is barreling down on you unless you carry an atlas with you. And in Louisiana, there are no counties, they are refered to as Parishes. Don't know the particulars about what makes them different, other than the name. I have often wondered about the use of "county Down" etc, in regards to Ireland. Good thread.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:11 PM

One of the things that makes counties so significant in England and more so in Ireland is the link to sporting championships.

In England it's County Cricket, and only in some counties. Those are the championships that matter. That's an example of how county loyalty can be stronger than national - I am sure there are a lot of people in Yorkshire for example who would see it as much more important that Yorkshire should do well, than that, for example the English team should win the Ashes against Australia. Especially if there weren't Yorkshire players in the side.

In Ireland in the Gaelic sports, the counties are the main thing, and any time a county is in a big match to win the All Ireland championship, the whole place will blossom with county flags on pretty well all the houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:11 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:16 PM

And here is the kind of thing I meant about counties in Ireland having their own songs - local national anthems even.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: open mike
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:31 PM

AS a genealogy reseacher, county is quite important.
That is usually where the vital statistics are kept.
this might be different in nebraska, as the state is
the keeper of such data. I have often found birth and
death information and helped people locate ancestors
by searching in the county recorders office for documents.
Genealogy web sites or interest groups are almost always
organized by counties, which you will find if you go to
roots web . As a rural
person the county jurisdiction is more important. For
services provided come from different agencies dependcing
on what side of the county line you live. Fire, law enforcemnet,
etc., differ depending on if you are in the city limits or not.
The tax assessor , voter registration and court system are
county-based as is the Library, health dept., welfare and
food stamp assistance, and road repair department! Also
School districts, and the elected board, the County Board
of Supervisors creates laws and makes decisions supposedly
representing the public's best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:55 PM

Amd then of course, there was that great string band, The Leake County Revellers.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM

My experience (with many exceptions):

Ask an English speaker where (s)he comes from

Englishmen give you the name of the town.
Non-English British tell you the large subpart of Britain they come from, like, for instance, 'Wales'.
Irishmen tell you the county.
US-Americans tell you the town, immediately followed by name of the state.
Australians, Canadians, and New Zealanders just say 'Australia' etc.

Ask a German speaker where they come from

Germans tell you the town, and if it is smaller than 10,000 inhabitants they say 'close to....' and give the nearest more than 10,000 inhabitants towns. If asked by an American they say 'close to Munich' if they live in Southern Germany, close to Heidelberg, if they live in the middle, and 'close to Berlin' if they live in the North'.
Bavarians tell you the name of the village and if it is smaller than 500 inhabitants, they tell you the name of the closest village with more than 500 inhabitants. If they are asked by an American they do not give the second hint.
Austrians tell you only they don't come from Bavaria.
Swiss consider it an insult if you ask where they come from. They consider that as a slight against their pronunciation of German.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM

Yes, they matter!
(...Co. Down girl through-and-through)

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM

There's the County Paris in "Romeo and Juliet."

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:32 PM

Cape Bretoners will tell you they are from Cape Breton--lest you get them confused with Nova Scotians.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:48 PM

Surely the kind of answer Wolfgang is talking about is likely to be concerned with pinpointing the place geographically, and depends on what you guess about the other listener's knowledge of such things?

So if I was talking to somebody in Harlow I'd say "qite near the station". If from a nearby town or village, I'd say "Harlow", if from a little further afield I'd add - "it's about halfway between London and Cambridge, or "quite near London." If I went far enough away I'd probably say "from Europe".

...................

Noone's commented on the other point I raised - is Ireland the only place where people refer to the counties as "the county XXX" rather than "county XXX"?

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:04 PM

Dunno... I refer to it as"County Down", as in "I come from County Down". No "the"... Mind you, I might even omit the county depending on who I'm talking with (if it's another Irish person, for example).

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:19 PM

We go through something similar in Canada with Yukon. Many people call it "the Yukon." Guess it's what ya get accustomed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:38 PM

But I suspect you'd not think twice about saying it the other way, or hearing it the other way. I don't think anyone would ever be likely to talk about "the County Dorset".

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 02:29 AM

The use of 'The' (as in 'the' County Down), would be a regular enough insertion in verse or song, and seems to act more as 'polyfilla' to rythmically qualify the line, more often than not....
"In Banbridge town, in the County Down..." etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:43 AM

I don't think that is the usual English or Welsh way Wolfgang. As far as I'm concerned the effort is to try to assess the other person's knowledge of an area and give a location that may be recognised. This could be a town, city, county or other region. Sometimes we will "home in" eg. When I lived in a village in Wales, I may have said I lived in North Wales, North West Wales, near Llandudno or even specifically Bryn Pydew. I do similar here but this time using counties Norfolk, North Norfolk, Cromer, Roughton.

One reason for avoiding counties in N Wales was the way they messed about with the names and boundaries. Without moving, I lived in Caernarvonshire, Gwynedd and Conwy. To confuse the issuse, I think Gwynedd still exists but no longer goes further North than around Bangor and Conwy not only contains part of what was Gwynedd but also part of what has been variously Denbishire and Clwyd.

Subject: RE: BS: Do counties matter?
From: Teresa
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 04:04 AM

As far" as I'm aware, I live in Alameda County, California, USA, and not The County Alameda. The second does sound more lyrical somehow, though. :)

and a thread-creep aside, while I'm thinking about it ... for California folks. ... I notice that in the San Francisco Bay Area we refer to freeways with just the number, as in 80 or 5, and in Southern California, it's _the_ 5 or _the_ 405, (pronounced four-oh-five) etc.   Interesting.

Now returning to previously-scheduled county discussion ... :)
Teresa

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Compton
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 06:42 AM

Too true counties are important for verily Staffordshire IS God's Country...No matter whar Jeremy Clarkson says!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 06:46 AM

When you met with fellow Paddies in England, it was always "where you from" and the answer was "Armagh", or whatever other County you came from.
With the possible exception of Yorkshire and Lancashire, the rivalry between the Irish Counties is more intense than any other part of Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: GUEST,kathy & Jon
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:31 AM

Counties? We live in the COUNTRY of Cornwall!! And we don't say we are from Britain or England, we always say we are from Cornwall. We think it is something most people who live in Cornwall will say.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:46 AM

Just a reminder. Whether or not emphasis on county is a "southern" thing in the states, WV is NOT in the south. It is not clear that any of the contributors to this discussion are from "the south".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: paddymac
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM

There seems to be a deep seated psychological need to be a member of some "group" or other, which may be a reflection of the probably more ancient reality that there is safety in numbers. Maybe the idea could be more simply phrased as an element of "tribalism." If that thought pattern is applied to contemporary living, the "tribe" is more likely to analogize to whatever group identity is most appropriate in context. I worked in governmental affairs for agricultural commodity "group" in Florida for many years, and became accustomed to county identifications as the first level of geo-specificity. When you tell someone "in the business" what county you're from, it conveys a wealth of information not apparent to others, such as environmental differences, production characteristics and needs, markets, transport, etc. It is also useful as a more general, regional locator, such as north, south, east, west, panhandle, central, etc., with similar information content. Urban folks, generally, are oblivious to such things because they are further removed (as in less attuned) from the "land" in both a practical and cultural sense. Perhaps more germane to McGrath's original question, "county" conveys much more information than geography, depending on both the speaker and the listener, not least of which are the "traditions" (not as used in NI) of the parties. Sorry to be so long-winded. Just trying to clear cobwebs and the after-effects of a long night.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: The O'Meara
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:19 AM

I've lived in a lot of places in the U.S. and the county designation is used many different ways. Generally, in the eastern states, it's an administrative governmental thing, and in the west it's also a geographic thing. In Wyoming, auto license plates are numbered according to county, the numbers were set by county population at the time the whole thing was set up. For instance someone from Casper would have a plate that read 1-2345 for Natrona County, and someone from Cheyenne would have 2-2345 for Laramie County.
Once you learn the numbers you know from the plate where someone is "from." That's handy when you need a group to dislike, as in "them Damn Converse County jerks come here and catch our fish..." (Would this be called countyism?)
I reckon the use of "the" in Irish counties is a local custom that didn't travel well. In Amerikay you hear "The County Down" in the songs, but if you ask "Where you from?" the response is or was, generally just "County Cork," not "The County Cork."
I've never quite understood the Irish counties. Near as I can tell, there are 32 irish counties located within 4 Irish counties. Anyone know how this works?

O'Meara

Whoops, I meant The O'Meara.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 11:07 AM

Yes, they matter !!! (But not much.) And it doesn't matter.

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 11:11 AM

The "4 Irish counties" you refer to are actually provinces - Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connacht. These predate the division into counties.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: CET
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 12:50 PM

Actually, Charmion; Edmund is out watching rugger.

I grew up in Carleton County, Ontario, now almost entirely subsumed by the City of Ottawa, which for about 25 years was the "Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton" comprising several cities (including Ottawa), towns and villages and about a dozen townships, all in Carleton County. I still have the hard "r" of the Carleton County accent (think Belfast with a Canadian vocabulary) to prove it.

In eastern Canada, counties matter a lot if you are involved in anything legal or you live in the country. The land registries and court system are based on the system of townships and counties set up by the British in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Generally, the more rural your residence, the more aware you are of county identification because if you live on a farm or in a hamlet or village, your local government will be a township, headed by a reeve and council, and the township is a division of a county.

This sort-of rule applies to southern Ontario, southern Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia; variations are found in more recently settled parts of the country.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:16 PM

I grew up in County Down, and that was certainly how we referred to it. But rarely or never with "the", or the other way round (Down County). I think putting "the" before it may a southern Irish usage, but it wasn't normal in N.I.

The postal address is Co. Down, N.I. Likewise County Antrim, etc, although the other counties are more often referred to just by their names (as most English ones are). "Down" seems to need "County" because it's a word with other meanings and could be confusing when used on its own. A quick Google shows you just how prevalent the form "County Down" is.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:33 PM

Open Mike touched on it above--counties are the seat of the courts in the U.S. Federal, state, and county courts-at-law, and the Justice of the Peace, etc. are all in the county courthouses. Here in Texas with something like 250 counties, it pays to know the names of the counties in your region of the state because the National Weather Service (thus the local weather folks) generally present risky situations (thunder storms, flash flooding, tornado watches or warnings) by county. Living here you need to know that Jacksboro County, Palo Pinto County, and Erath County are northwest/west/southwest of Tarrant County (where Fort Worth and many other small cities are) because our weather usually comes from the Northwest or the Southwest, depending on what is driving the storms, cold air from the Northwest or wet air from over Mexico.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

Counties are extremely important in Kentucky. We are a small state with 120 counties. (all but three are named for men) Because we have few large cities, the county is often more important than a town or city in it when describing a geographic location. Also, most of the high schools are now a consolidated county-wide school, and with March Madness approaching (basketball tournaments), the names of various counties are quite familiar. Until recently we even had the name of our county on our car license plates, and often people could name the county but not a city or town in that county.

It is said (in the Kentucky history I always heard) that the counties were laid out so that the county seat (local government) was a day's horseback ride from every point in the county. Many boundaries follow creeks and hillsides, so they are very irregular. Our roads (except for modern interstate highways) are very winding also.

Open Mike, if you are interested in geneology, the small, local library here in Bardstown is very active in that area. Kentucky was the 15th state in the union and a crossroads for Western expansion. There is a lot of documented history here... all the way back to the 1780s or so. (That must sound funny to y'all across the pond, but it really is old stuff around here.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 02:21 PM

The English Counties only seem to matter when 'they' try to muck about with them - Remember the furore over Rutland, which now seems to have been re instated. At least there is a sign welcoming you to Rutland on the A1.

    And a lot of people still dont think about Avon, but do recognise Somerset etc. - Same goes for west Midlands !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 02:37 PM

Nigel earlier said that he only knew of one American county: Carroll County, as mentioned in Ode to Billie Jo. Well, Carroll County is the only American county I could think of,likewise, as I started reading this thread. But I was thinking of the fabulous fiddle tune "Carroll County Blues". So, the place is doubly famous. What is so special about it? And come to think of it, where is it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 02:54 PM

Yeah, Leadfingers, Bristol used to be in the county of Avon, but now it's a county all by itself apparently (as a unitary authority). (Although I often find that postal addresses expect it to be "Avon".)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:22 PM

For the benefit of the O`Meara,
ULSTER Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Derry, Donegal, Down,Fermanagh, Monaghan, Tyrone.                                                LEINSTER,, Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford, Longford, Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath, Laois,Kilkenny, Kildare.
CONNAUGHT, Sligo, Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Leitrim.
MUNSTER, Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Limerick, Waterford, Clare.

Not bad from memory in about three minutes, well there`s no can prove different.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:23 PM

Bristol was always odd. Before that Avon nonsense in the 70's, Bristol was on the borders of Gloucestershire and Somerset, but in neither. Like the City of London, the City of Bristol was not in a county, unlike all of the rest of England(or so I have been led to believe).Then it was forcibly incorporated into the ludicrous invention of Avan, and is now apparently back to being on its own again as a unitary authority.
   In Russia they change names(St Petersburg, Petrograd, Leningrad, St Petersburg). In England the name of the town stays the name, but the county it is in moves, changes shapeor name.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:24 PM

Sorry all you Paddies in Camden Town, you don`t qualify.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do counties matter?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 03:42 PM

Greg: a quick search of the net seems to produce a "Carroll County", or "County Carroll" in Iowa, Maryland, Illinois, Ohio....

So which one?