Guitar sale/purchase predicament

Subject: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM

Okay, I hope this is not too complicated of a story but here goes...

My little family of guitars is almost complete. One more out of the shop and I will have three (almost) identical pieces: a 6 string, a 12 string and a classical. My problem is I have another 6 string that no longer "fits". It is a really nice guitar, a Yamaha LL 11. It has a sitka spruce top, mahogany back and sides (my luthier says it is mahogany plywood) with a rosewood neck and fretboard. It is in beautiful shape. I sent a description to Elderly, and the owner sent back an estimate of $450 - 500 (usd) as its value.

I am thinking of perhaps down the road sometime adding another 6 string to my "family", but I would like it to be a high end Martin, Collings, Larrivee or some such (or maybe have another custom made). The problem is that the guitar would be cheaper than the divorce, as the Mrs. Freightdawg has been most gracious and accomodating with my Guitar Acquisition Syndrome to this point, but I don't know how far I can push it. So I am asking for my esteemed Mudcat friends for some advice.

I would like the guitar to go to a good home - one where it would be treated right and maybe even get out of the house now and then. I've considered placing it on the Mudcat auction, but I need to get a good price out of it, and I don't want to appear greedy. That way the Mudcat would get a pretty good percentage, too. Or, I could sell it through consignment at Elderly, or I could sell it on consignment here where I live (a risky shot, at best.) Or I could keep it as an eventual trade-in against the high-end guitar. (It would have about a $350 trade-in value).

Those of you who know guitars - is $500 a good price for a 6 year old guitar Yamaha? (I paid $700 for it new). It would come with a TKL hard shell case and a capo.

Thanks fer helping out,

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:47 PM

www.piens.be/list/Pages/Yamaha%20LL-11.htm - 6k

or Google

Yamaha LL-11

They list $690 American. But there is a price converter on that page (first one at the top) and it will convert to all kinds of money.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:49 PM

If the condition is close to mint, $500 sounds fair, BTW. Especially with the hardshell case. You will get a buyer fast, IMO.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:03 PM

$500 sounds like a fair price if it's in decent shape.

Let me give you a slight warning about consigning. Recently I took three "junker" instruments to a guy who, for a percentage, would do all the work of selling them on E-bay: write-up, photos, shipping, dealing with Pay Pal, etc.

He sold an autoharp and a six-string banjo in the first week, but the relatively new Johnson 12-string, with an older hard shell case, just wouldn't sell.

We subsequently tried two more auctions - with no luck, so I went and retrieved it from him.   I didn't bother to look at the instrument for a couple of days, and and then I discovered the bridge was peeling off, probably because he had stored it for a couple of months without a humidifier!   I took it to a friend at a repair shop and he discovere that not only was the bridge peeling, the braces inside were warped also. Ultimately I kept the old case and donated a $120 12-string for parts to the shop.

If you consign - make sure they know how to take care of an instrument. This guy didn't, not his fault really, so I ended up losing about $25 all told !!

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Hello all...
               FD..if your LL is anything like as good as mine(same age etc) I'd be keeping it!! Personally, I think you'd go a long way to get better value for money! I have a Lowden 032 as well, which is fabulous, 4 times the price, but no way 4 times better!! My feeling is that just because a guitar is megabucks doesnt mean to say its mega anything else...!! IMO, that is...
   
               Regards to all.....Spot

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

Thanks to all for the info - Brucie I'll check out that website when I get more than 5 minutes in a row to do something with.

Spot - I agree it is a great guitar. That's part of my hesitation in getting rid of it. I've considered making some adjustments to it (electronics, etc,) but can't sell myself on that idea either. Thanks for letting me know you have one, and how much you like it.

Les, thanks for the heads up. The folks I've considered consigning to all have nice shops to display their guitars, or in Elderly's case I am sure they know how to take care of a guitar. My fear in dealing with a distant location is the shipping and handling. I know all too well what can happen to something as large as a guitar in shipping transit.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

Freightdawg

The problem is that one can buy a halfway decent low end Martin new for the same price.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: UB Ed
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM

Have you considered the concept of the "travel guitar"? One that is fun to play (action/tone) yet will not send you to a padded room if it is damaged by an airline, sat in the beach sand or splashed by the canoe paddle?

Ms. Dawg will certainly understand the economic utility of having such an instrument as well as the higher end six when you get it. Is it space, money or both? You just may have to store the Yamaha under the bed...and $500 ain't a lot if you are truly considering a "high end six".

Ed

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Biskit~ just passin' through~
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM

If it's a really sweet guitar, and old yammerhammers certainly can be, I'd keep it,..but then again I've kept every guitar I've ever had, it'd be like selling my cat,..just couldn't live with m'self afterwards.
happy trails,
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:01 AM

MG..
    Pray who would want a "half way decent" Martin, new or otherwise? At their prices every damn one should be "full-on" bloody excellent. That has not been my personal experience of any Martins over 40 yrs of playing....I dont like em....!!( prefer me LL anyday!!)

                   Regards to all.....Spot

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:04 AM

Fdawg...stick a Fishman matrix thingy in it...stunning guitar, good pick-up...what more does one want!!!

                  Regards to all, again....Spot

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

Spot

Martins are the choice obviously of most professional players in folk and bluegrass. Gibsons tend to be the pro choice of many doing country, though you will see Martins there, also.

Martin's astute marketing and brand name recognition and reputation for quality have opened up models as low as the $400-500 range.

I have also been playing for 40+ years, 42 to be exact, currently own five high quality acoustic guitars all being vintage in nature and am a student of the vintage guitar market, as well as a pro player both solo and in groups. My brother, is a serious guitar collector, with somewhere between 35-40 instruments in his collection. I have no financial interest in Martin whatsoever, but can assure you that Martins are highly renowned and are blowing their competition out of the water in the new mid price range market as well as holding their own against higher end brands, Collings, Huff and Dalton, and Santa Cruz notwithstanding.

I have found that many players who do not like Martins are people who convince themselves of that as they believe that they cannot afford a model in the Standard Series (18,28,35,4X, CEO, etc.) I would be hard pressed to know what an "LL" is that you were referring to and in my travels and communications with other serious collectors and dealers, as well as many musicians, can quite confidently say that I never heard of them. This is not to say that "LL" might be some small, fine quality custom branded instrument. There are many in that category.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

MG...If you'd have read the original reason for this thread, you'd have at least a rough idea of what an LL is...you obviously havent bothered....

"Martins are the choice obviously of most professional players in folk and bluegrass" you say....
    I say...so bloody what???

    You can't even get "HUSS and DALTON" right.....I think its you that does the "HUFFIN!!"

    That lot apart and I dont give a toss what anybody says..the "LL" is a super guitar , brilliant VFM and a damned handsome beast to boot...I honestly wouldnt swap it for any Martin...Incidentally,I gig with a Collings mando and a Lowden guitar so I know what I'm about with expensive stuff and I think your last paragraph convinces me you are so far up your own arse its untrue!!!!

                Happy Christmas, though, nevertheless!!

                        Regards to all.....Spot

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

You are a moron, spot, and your LL is nothing more than an English piece of balsa wood.

give me a call when you want to learn something you inflammatory amateur.

You are the one who came on initially as a ranting limey idiot after I posted in the spirit of trying to be helpful.

Stick your arse up your ass.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

MG... Spot the moron with the inflamed arse here again!! Thanks for your comments, they really made me smile!! "LL"'s English??? May I respectfully suggest you do a bit of homework. Balsa?? Well, not quite though its been suggested the sides may be mahog ply.Personally I think mines IR.with mahog neck...GraphTech pins and an ebony Pearse armrest(which is lovely!)Hand made English saddle leather strap and Rhortechs on it....Get the picture?

          Regards to all...The Ranting Limey Idiot struggling to    stick his arse up his own arse which is already full of Martins!!!!

    Freightdawg...I hope you reading this...Comments please?

                           :-)

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

Freightdawg

Never trust a guy who thinks something called an LL is better than a Martin.

Doesn't LL stand for "lousy loser"?

Spot, your head will still fit anyway. While you are up your own ass with those Martins, why don't you pull out a few sideways and realize that those finely made American instruments can be restored and get you some good money. Please hose them off first, though.

Phew!

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Have we ever established, for those of us not in the know, just exactly what an "LL" is? Are the "L"'s initials we're excepted to recognize? Is it a model designation for some well-known brand?

Please pardon my ignorance. I haven't shopped for guitars since I got my D-18 (that's a Martin) in 1969. For years, I've been completely unaware of the various newer premium brands that have emerged. Since I started checking into Mudcat a couple of years ago, I've come to realize that quite a few brand names which had meant nothing to me are apparently very excellent (and expensive!) guitars.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:14 PM

"Martins are the choice obviously of most professional players in folk and bluegrass. Gibsons tend to be the pro choice of many doing country, though you will see Martins there, also."

Okay, then how come you see so many Taylors on Austin City Limits and the Nashville channel? Most of the folksingers I've seen who play Martins play OLDER Martins. Don't like the new ones very much. Not as good. Grossly overpriced.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

freightdawg said in his first post it was a Yamaha LL11, and right after that brucie gave a link to a page with a picture and details..

It's not a bad idea actually to read a thread before whinging   about not having been given the information that in fact has been given.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

How about when the information is vague and so poorly documented as was the case here?

Not all of us can be such experts on cheap Jap guitars, you know.

Guest, diogenes., what Nashville channel? do you mean CMT or GAC? I don't believe but just a few hat acts play Taylors.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM

Keep the Yamaha.

Martins always remind me of Peter's Placebo.

"An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance"

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

My bad, Kevin. I DID read the initial post a couple of days ago when it first appeared (as well as, bit by bit, the entire thread), but I failed to remember all the pertinent details. I remembered the instrument in question was a Yamaha, but forgot that the model-number was "LL."

I think I can blame our favorite scapegoat Martin for my misunderstanding. ;^)

I may not know much, but I *do* know that Yamahas are Japanese, so when MG used the unfortunate phrase "your LL is nothing more than an English piece of balsa wood," I didn't realize he was referring to the Yamaha. Looking back, there were a couple of reactions pointing out than an LL ain't English, but I missed the point.

In freightdawg's defense, by the way, the info originally provided was perfectly clear to me. My forgetting that one little detail was entirely my own fault.

I understand that lots of folks agree that current Martins aren't nearly as consisently high-quality as in the past, and I know that Yamahas are pretty decent guitars, but it is dismaying to read that *anyone* would consider a used Yamaha to be a better buy than a similarly-priced new Martin. Actually, I'm a bit shocked to learn that a new Martin of any kind would be available at the same price as a used Yamaha.

Sheesh! The world sure changed a lot when I wasn't looking!

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

Yes, p-gator, Martins are firmly entrenched in the mid-range market know kicking the market share out of Yamaha and Epiphone in the acoustic market. Their D-1 model I believe is $400 with an x-braced spruce top and play quite well. No they are not a D28 or as nice as yours or mine D-18, but they are a lot closer than some Yamaha wannabee.

I also feel that this bull-crap about Martins not being as good as they once were is pure urban legend. What's true is that finer Martins in the Standard Series are not as CHEAP as they used to be and that is the crux of it. The whiners who complain about Martin who can't afford them downplay them for that reason.

I do know many people playing new HD-28s and D18GE models and have tried them myself. They are guitars of extreme quality and distinction and Martin is not going to ruin a 170 year old reputation that easily.

Bert, in that case, I am sure a Stella suits you just fine.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:07 PM

Before you believe a word Gibson says about the comparison of Yamahas and Martins in the same price bracket, play both. I have an OM1 which I like, but I have played some very nice Yamahas indeed. Regrettably, while his ignorance is echoed elsewhere, the Martin will probably prove the better investment, but that is not the smae thing as it being the beter guitar. I have also played Martins made over the last 30 years that were pretty crap.

And when the rednecks send an aircraft carrier I will be observing Churchill's behest.

If you really want to understand why so many people the world over detest America and Americans, just listen to Gibson a little longer.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

Thanks chaps....I wouldnt actually "listen"! to Mr Gibsin Marton at all...Whats this Urban Legend stuff???? I've played Martins and dont like em, they dont come up to snuff for me. End of story!! I think Monsieur Martson is money and prestige driven. That counts for zilch in my book!!
       Richard Bridge..I echo your sentiments re America

Once upon a lot of years ago I may have been swayed by the errmmm.."romance" of owning a Martin, but not now I'm older and wiser and more moronic and amateur and Limey (whatever that means!!)Oh yeah..and a Lousy Loser who is still struggling to get his head out of his arseful of, now literally, crappy Martins while wondering how to hose em off and flog em(in your own words, Mr Gibton!!)If they were as good as you say, surely I'd keep em!!
             Regards to all as ever...Spot   :-)

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

I could probably manage quite well with a Stella. But then, I can sing.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

Stellas were good enough for the likes of Skip James and many others. The field engineers who traveled the Mississippi Delta looking for blues artists to record supposedly carried Stellas with them -- they would usually prove to be better guitars than whatever the singers owned themselves.

Of course, now, those were *vintage* Stellas...

(I need a translation/explication of the aircraft-carrier/Churchill bit.)

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

Hey Bert
                      Sing me to sleep....I like the "Peters Placebo" stuff. Too many folk have that as their ..errm..."Mission Statement!!!"

                   Goodnight all...(inc MB)
                            Spot the Limey

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM

Skimming through this thread I'm reminded of a man who says "Good morning" and gets the reply "What do you mean telling me it's a Good Morning? Anyway, whats it got to you what kind of morning it is, you snotty nosed bastard!"

Takes all sorts...

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

Gee, MG...you're certainly full of yourself...among other noxious substances!

BTW, these "hat acts" your refer to mostly play Takamines!

Many, many folkies and younger bluegrassers use guitars other than Martins...and quite a few do, indeed, play Taylors.

And, finally, the LL-series Yamahas are excellent instruments that rival pretty much ANY brand for quality of tone and comfortableness of neck.

Martins DO make better investments, which is why my D-28 stays in it's case, in the closet...My Guilds and Taylors (and occ. Gibsons) go to my gigs and are the ones I prefer to play!

Happy Turkey Day!

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

He Dawg,

I'd stick with the Yamaha. It doesn't owe you anything. I have one I'll never part with.   32 years and going strong.

Don

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

Ahem, (putting on raincoat to enter the mudslinging)

I appreciate all the comments, but especially those that dealt with my original question. Spot, you are right and I do very much thank you, also Brucie for posting the url, and to McGrath for the blicky. Yep, that's the guitar.

When I bought the guitar I knew absolutely NOTHING about guitars. I went into a music store that had dozens of acoustics and showed da man how many greenbacks I had. He sat down and said "This is a good one" and played a little ditty on a guitar. He did that with about three of them and then played the Yamaha. I said "That's it!" I have no idea what models he played before it or after it, I just know that my ear picked up a noticable difference between this one and the others. It has a gorgeous, mellow tone and is a very nice piece, indeed. I was told at the time it was hand made at Yamaha (a claim I now believe was more salesmanship than fact. I have another brochure somewhere that says it was "partially" handcrafted, whatever the heck that means). The really high end LL series are individually handmade but not the "11".

However, since that time I have worked with a local luthier who has custom made me my little guitar "family." I showed him the Yamaha and he pointed out the fact it was Mahogany plywood. (You can see the grain through the soundhole does not match the grain on the back). However, that in no way means it is cheap. There is a distinct difference between inexpensive and cheap. A guitar may be both, but just because it is inexpensive doesn't mean it is cheap. He pointed out that many nice plywoods have as rich a tone and last as long or longer than single pieces. The difference is when you move up into the pieces that cost many times the cost of this Yamaha the construction and tone of the guitar should be noticably different. That is true of my custom-mades. I am NOT dissing the Yamaha. It is a sweet guitar. But, a sows ear is a sows ear and a silk purse it will never be.

And so my original post pertains to this yin-yang of guitar ownership. Do I keep a nice low-to-medium value guitar, sell it outright, or keep it in view of maybe one day trading it in on a medium-to-high or high end guitar? Or as was suggested above, spruce it up a little?

And I have genuinely, genuinely enjoyed the responses. My thanks especially to McGrath and Richard and Bert and Terry. Not knowing much about the Yamaha line I really did not know what I had. Your input is invaluable.

(shucking raincoat and fluffing my fur)

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:27 PM

Hi again FD,

I really think you would do well to keep the Yamaha. If for no other reason than to have a High End Beater to take to picnics and the like. If I read this correctly it is your first guitar. First guitars, especially good ones, have a fond spot in most hearts and are never truly replaced.

Also, SAGAS, Serious Accoustic Guitar Acquisition Syndrome is not fatal and it is usually more tolerated within the than other types of collection syndromes. Such as toe nail collections or weaving belly button lint into a sweater.

And it is some cheaper than buying Faberge Eggs.

Don

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:00 PM

"They are guitars of extreme quality and distinction and Martin is not going to ruin a 170 year old reputation that easily."

The Packard was one of the world's best automobiles, right up there with the Rolls-Royce. They tried to capture some of the cheaper car market and went belly-up in the '50s. Same thing happend to Studebaker in the '60s. It happens.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM

I don't think Richard Bridge knows anything much about guitars, let alone quality American ones. Kind of funny how some people in Europe take any opportunity that they can to bash Americans and their products. The on-going jealousy of all things American always seems to come out and when it does, it is my pleasure to tell the non-Americans right to their face that we just KNOW our products, especially great American tradition products such as Martin guitars are known and respected the world over.

Many non-Americans really can't deal with the superior American product so they bash the product and the people. Oh, well. It goes with their second rate complex I am afraid.

I can tell you this much. Bluegrass musicians, who are considered by many to be the most accomplished acoustic musicians around, would not be caught dead with a Taylor, let alone inferior Japanese products such as Yamaha or Takemine. The hat acts who play these sushi boards are not accomplished musicians and use them as props. The fine country players, such as Emmylou Harris play Gibson, which is based in Nashville.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Justa Picker
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM

What Don said, 3 posts before this one.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:02 PM

So far I have resisted, but grrrrrrrr,

Martin, every word you have said about cheap guitars can be said about Martins. Right now if you went into the average music store and asked to look at the low end Martins the product you would get would not be worth the case it was shipped in. They are awful. I am not saying that as a professional or an expert. They are just cheap, assembly line fabrications that are good starters and that's about it.

Now, when you move up into the medium to high end Martins, I am sure every word you are saying is true. But the same is true of the Yamaha line. The high end Yamahas are hand made and the quality is superb. Same with the Takamines. My mid-line LL11 is a good guitar, it is probably an assembly line model, but it has good tone and is very playable. With the adjustable neck I can keep the action right where I want it. Don't be trashing something just because it has a Japanese name. If I am not mistaken, either Yamaha or Takamine or both are produced here in the U S of A with good ol' boys doing all the sawing and hammering and gluing.

I'm as red-blooded an American as any blue-tick houn' dawg there is. But quality does not come with a little American flag. Quality exists where there is genuine love for and pride in creating a product. I would love to have a high end Martin. But I would just as soon have a Larrivee (Canadian) or other well known guitar with a solid pedigree.

grrrrrrrr over.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: UB Ed
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:17 AM

Hello?

Have you considered the concept of the "travel guitar"? One that is fun to play (action/tone) yet will not send you to a padded room if it is damaged by an airline, sat in the beach sand or splashed by the canoe paddle?

Ms. Dawg will certainly understand the economic utility of having such an instrument as well as the higher end six when you get it. Is it space, money or both? You just may have to store the Yamaha under the bed...and $500 ain't a lot if you are truly considering a "high end six".

Mixner's right.

Ed

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM

"I Pledge Allegiance to the guitar of the United States of America..."

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:58 AM

...........and to the quality of which it stands.

Ah so, you want California maki selved on your Yamaha, suh?

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:14 AM

Jeez, I've lurked around this site a lot. I post some but I love to learn. BUT I have never since I started came across anyone like Martine Gobshite. LISTEN UP MARTINE evryone whose opinion differs from yours is not automatically bashing America. Yes Martins are made in America they are not America. McDonalds are an American company I wouldn' put one near my mouth. I have liked nearly every American I have met. America seems a fine country whose government like many other government leads it inti strange places. This is not American bashing. And before you ask I own a Martin.
Personally I am ashamed that someone with a mind, mouth and personality likes yours has Scottish blood in him. Perhaps someone should remove it through your nose.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:17 AM

The "quality" argument cannot have credence at maunfacturer or even model level. It is only valid when considering indivigual guitars, irrespective of make and model. Some Martin guitars do not live up to the name and, on the other hand, some Yamaha guitars are superb.

I had a Yamaha LL-11E which was wonderful. Then, after owning a poor Martin 000-18 for 18 years I found a Martin HJ-28 which is a real humdinger. The Yamaha went in part-exchange and the Taylor, which I had previously bought in NYC, stayed in its case until I sold it privately last year.

I've played loads of Martins since - and other high-end guitars such as Bourgois, Froggy Bottom, etc, etc, - and some of them were okay, some good and some not so good. The only one I bought is a Martin OM-35 which is the best of them all.

I never once played a really good Gibson, but then I'm in the UK and I'm not convinced they export the best of them.

Howver, if I only had $500 to spend, I'd buy the LL any time. Horses for courses, or rather budgets.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:22 AM

Before I knew Jack-shit about acoustic guitars (18 years ago) I went looking for the best brand you could buy. Of course I was told "Martin" was the way to go. With "brass in pocket" (budget was not a problem - I was prepared to go crazy for once in my life) I headed for the Aladdin's Cave of all Guitar stores. I played 'em all that day.

Being exposed to so many brands and having a bloody good ear is a recipe for disaster - I failed miserably in my mission. I so wanted to be able to say "I'm now the owner of a MARTIN GUITAR!" to all my fellow pickers but, alas, I left the store with the proprietor's words ringing in my ear "You'll not get a decent trade-in price on that, but you would if you bought a Martin"

Sod the trade-in price; I got superior sound, superior construction (hand-made rather than "hand-made") superior quality woods, and still had some "brass in pocket" left over to remind me to this day how stupid I was.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:23 AM

davetnova

I assure you that I have absolutely no Scottish blood in me so you can sleep tonight if you don't explode first into a supernova from all of your frustrations.

I am fond of using Scotch tape though. It's pretty good for holding the binding together on this Yamaha classical guitar I own.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

My apologies to my fellow Scots. I had forgotten that Mr. America only hides behind the good Scottish name of Gibson. (and the German one of Martin) Why don't you get yourself a REAL AMERICAN name.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

I did, moron

Martin and Gibson guitars are the finest in American guitars. That's where my Mudcat name comes from. Most everyone here knows that.

Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be associated with that leading anti-semite Scot Mel Gibson.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:12 PM

You are a very sick person, which is a shame because sometimes you sound OK.

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

I have owned three Martins. The first was a steel-string, a 00-18, bought in 1953. I switched to classic guitar in 1954 and bought a 00-28-G, the top of the Martin nylon-string classic line. It was an excellent classic. A couple of years later, I bought a 00-18-G classic (mahogany back and sides rather than Brazilian rosewood, considerably less expensive than the 00-28-G) to pack around to parties and such. All three of these guitars were very fine instruments.

I have long since moved on to even better guitars. Two of the guitars I now own were made outside of the United States. One is a flamenco guitar made in Madrid by Arcangel Fernandez, and the other is a Japanese-made classic that I got for around $350.00 in 1977. It was hand-made by a Japanese luthier who apprenticed under Arcangel Fernandez, imported by José Oribé, and sold under his label. It looks exactly like the concert José Ramirez that Segovia played and when I played a recital for the Seattle Classic Guitar Society using this guitar, partly because of its appearance and partly because of its full, rich sound, these knowledgeable folk assumed that it was a Ramirez. Remarkable when you consider that I got it for about 1/20th of what a Ramirez would have cost me.

Merely because I'm oriented toward classic guitars doesn't mean I don't know anything about steel-string guitars. Remember, when someone is playing a steel-string guitar, I'm in front of it, where I can hear what it really sounds like. Most Martin guitars are still quite good. Some are exceptionally good. But their overall quality is not as good as it was thirty or forty years ago. Two instruments of the same model can vary widely, and this didn't use to be the case.

American luthiers turn out some crap. American luthiers also turn out some of the finest instruments in the world. Japanese luthiers turn out some crap. Japanese luthiers also turn out some of the finest instruments in the world. I've heard steel-string Yamahas and Takamines that can hold their own with any guitars around. And like GUEST, Diogenes, I see as many Taylors on Austin City Limits as Martins and Gibsons combined. Also, I see a lot of guitars that I can't identify, but I can see that they're neither Martins nor Gibsons.

Sorry Marty. Them's the facts. And it has nothing to do with being a "GOOD AMERICAN." (Whatever the hell that is!!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:02 PM

Hello everybody..
    Well this ones still ragin' innit??   Maybe Mr Gobson Bitmap now realises that the tide of opinion is flowing against his blinkered thoughts....What you say to that Martin?

                  Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

Don - if you get a guitar made by an Archangel I would expect it to sound heavenly. But as you say there are many beautiful instruments. I think it's a case of America being so big that there are so many good instruments made there that there is no incentive for people to look outside that continent. There are some amazing instruments being made in Europe and there are many in the far east working their hearts out producing beautiful instruments getting no recognition because they are "Pacific Rim". Racist? I would say so. America's Pacific Rim from here.
No country has a monopoly on good instuments and certainly no one maker has.