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BS: The Real Obama
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM Well, DV, you may be missing my point intentionally, or through cranial density, or some other reason, but miss it you surely have. So never mind. What were your views of Bush in 2000 and 2004, by the way? Were you strongly inclined either way? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,DV Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:04 AM Are you suggesting that anyone who posts a critical view of Obama in a web forum you frequent, is personally attacking you? That is a pretty bizarre claim. I would say ditto to Amos, who apparently is having difficulty disagreeing with people without personally insulting them. For the record, I've never been a Bush supporter. As to voting, I don't get out to do that much. But I do have opinions about our contemporary political life & it's players, which I express without personally attacking those whose opinions are different from my own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM Andrea Mitchell is a Neocon hack. She pretends to be fair, but always treats Democrats (other than Lieberman) snidely. Even Fox News is more fair and balanced than her. This guy explained the lack of access for the press in Iraq. Interestingly, it is not Obama's fault. It is congressional and DOD policy. All such junkets are handled that way. {sarcasm} But lets give Andrea the benefit of the doubt. Why should NBC's senior political corespondent be expected to know meaning of the word "unprecedented". {/sarcasm} Major Garrett The Obama Trip — Two Parts, Semi-Explained DV I don't think that comparing Bush and Obama is a problem at all. It is you saying that they are the same and expecting us to agree that poses the problem. I do not believe they are the same. In fact I believe that many of the problems with Bush and his administration were unique to him among all those running for President in the history of this country. In fact, I think that McCain would be far better than Bush. Of course I also think that Obama would be far better than McCain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Dv Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:14 AM I don't agree with your view of Andrea Mitchell. However, she isn't the only reporter who has publicly commented upon the Obama bubble, and the unprecendented lack of press access to a travelling US senator in Iraq. Nowhere did I say Obama and Bush are the same. I said they share the same positions on certain issues. That some people interpret that to mean (in their mind) that I said Obama and Bush are the same, doesn't mean I am stupid or insane, as you and the other gentlemen suggested with your nasty responses. As to the link you provide to Fox News, I don't find that to be a credible reason for the press blackout. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:18 AM I didn't personally attack you DV. I simply pointed out that paranoid ravings from skeptics were not credible. I did this in exactly the same way that you pointed out that people who support Obama and quoted his words were not credible. There was no need for you to take it personally unless you believe that your words are such that others could mistake them for paranoid ravings. On the other hand you strongly implied that the judgement of those who support Obama is not to be trusted because they are acting on emotion. I did not take this as a personal attack. If you must know, I took it as irrational stereotyping and profound ignorance. But perhaps you have another explanation. Perhaps you have mountains of evidence showing why one could not come to a rational decision to support Obama. If so, I'd really like to read it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: pdq Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:21 AM Obama said he was going on a world-wide fact-finding mission. He is now on it. In Afghanistan (Sunday, I believe) he said he did not expect to pick up a single fact that would change his publically-stated foreign policy. Er, sounds like the US taxpayers are spending a lot of money on jet fuel for nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,DV Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM I'm done with this discussion. I won't be bullied and intimidated by Obama supporters here, or anywhere else. Your contributions to this thread are doing nothing to shed light on our understanding of 'The Real Obama', and nor is this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:27 AM DV, Why would the Fox reporter lie about this? Its not like Rupert Murdoch and Obama are buddies. He also seems to have provided a lot of very credible detail which Andrea Mitchell did not. The only thing unprecedented about the trip is that Obama is on it. Also, Obama has no motive for barring the Press from the trip. He gets to pick and choose the press traveling with him in Europe. If could take press to the war zones there is only an upside for him to take them. I am beginning to find reason to doubt your judgement on what is credible. BTW, There are another couple of problems with Andrea Mitchell's reporting. She tends to under analyze and over dramatize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM Do you think that you are shedding light by saying "not credible", "not credible" and not providing a single fact or insight to back that up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:50 AM Man! If this thread was a hamster running on an exercise wheel, he'd have generated megawatts of power by now.... But there was a comment way back there that I have to respond to. It was this one, by one of the Guests: "Obama is just another Chicago political slick talker. He would be at his best and right at home on the Chicago City Council. It is amazing how many of you he has duped. Wait until they finally show the tape of him in full "blackspeak." Well, by gosh! That sounds just like what certain mean-minded cynics are saying about Chongo Chimp: "Chongo is just another Chicago political slick talker. He would be at his best and right at home on the Chicago City Council or running some local boxing club. It is amazing how many of you he has duped. Wait until they finally show the tape of him in full "apespeak." I feel obliged to point out that this sort of negative commentary is quite unfair to both Obama and Chongo, despite the fact that they both hale from the greater Chicago area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:25 PM (Psst--LH...that's "hail", not "hale".) DV: WHen you said that Barack Obama would just be a continuation of Bush you not only kind of insulted folks who wouldn't pee on the Bush if it was burning on a mountainside, but you also made a serious error in logic, conflating things as the same which are very different. So I endeavoured to point out where those differences lie. You then saw fit to reject the distinctions, saying they were not visible to you. Which means you are either dense or insensitive to the nature of individual character, or just generally bitter in some way you have not said. Or that my perceptiono f those differences is delusory, which is an interpretation I think is pretty improbable. If I am loony, I have lots of folks who agree with my strange perceptions! But I seriously don't think so. Who's bullying? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:30 PM Yeah, I was wondering about that spelling, Amos. Thanks, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,DV Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:51 PM Self-penned political memoirs by politicians with presidential aspirations are not credible as critical biographical sources. Those tomes are propaganda of a self-promotional, commercially exploitable nature in contemporary US politics. Every major candidate either pens one (or several in some cases) themselves or, more often, has a ghost writer do it. Publishers and editors of such biographies and memoirs are notorious for not fact checking these types of books. From a recent Slate article on this very subject (the credibility of political autobiographies): How "true," for example, are real autobiographies, written by real people, describing real events? Coincidentally, I was first taught to ask this question by Gay, now an emeritus professor of history, during a seminar on autobiography that he taught some 20-odd years ago. As I recall it, we were debating Rousseau's Confessions when Gay pointed out some element of the story that could not possibly have been true. He then invited us to think about why, in that case, Rousseau had changed it. For unconscious emotional reasons? Or consciously, in order to shape his reputation? Beyond "setting the record straight," none of these books was ever intended to have deeper literary or historical significance. They don't do careful self-analysis, but neither do they add much to the bigger picture. They don't necessarily lie, but they are intended to shape public perceptions of the author, which is why many read like extended versions of those candidate-life-story films one sees nowadays at political conventions. And that is all the cut and paste, or further discussion you will get out of me in an Obama thread here. I cannot abide people who refuse to acknowledge the fact their personal hatreds of public figures reflects their personal prejudices, not "facts" or "truth". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: pdq Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM GUEST,DV... Don't go away completely, though. This is the most civilized that Mudcat has been in years. Things got bad after Rick Fielding, Mudcat's grownup, died. Other neo-grownups left. That niche seem to be destined to stay unfilled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Indeed thank you for the reasoned argument. It is quite preferable to your previous tactic of just saying "not credible" with no explanation. Its fair to point out that autobiographies are self serving. But as Ebbie as said. If I may paraphrase, if you want to get to know someone, a good place to start is their words. Obviously a discussion like this can only scratch the surface. Its been nearly eight years since he left office and I certainly don't know the "real" Bill Clinton. Certainly he surprised me a few times during Hillary's campaign. I'm also finding things out about Jimmy Carter. To know the real Obama at this point is asking a bit much. The Rizza article in the New Yorker opened my eyes to some things. I thought he was a great speaker. But now I find that he is a tougher and more crafty politician than I thought. I see that as a double edged sword. I see him as more capable of carrying out an agenda, but I do not put as much store in the face value of his agenda. But still, I trust his skills and agenda a lot more than I trust McCain's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:20 PM >> This is the most civilized that Mudcat has been in years. Things got bad after Rick Fielding, Mudcat's grownup, died. << I agree with this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:24 PM Yes, things have been getting more reasonable lately. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,DV Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:44 PM As a relative newcomer here, I'm afraid I can't agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:53 PM >>Don't go away completely, though. This is the most civilized that Mudcat has been in years. Things got bad after Rick Fielding, Mudcat's grownup, died. Other neo-grownups left. That niche seem to be destined to stay unfilled.<< What don't you agree with? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:56 PM DV: Hang around a while. You obviously have some brainmatter at work, and your contrbutions are welcome. While it is true autobiographies are not the best source material, it is also true that you can see a person's thought processes, their selection of importances, and which things bring out their strongest feelings, in their writing. This is just as true of Obama as it was of Thomas or Rousseau. The need for a grain of salt does not bury the other, telling flavors in the mix. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:31 PM Does Obama speak down to the reader when he writes, the way he does to an audience when he speaks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:35 PM The writing in the Op Ed was pretty straight forward, but then, he certainly didn't speak down to the audience when we saw him in person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:18 PM Do Europeans know the real Obama? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:24 PM Response to Jack the Sailor "We need to get Bin Laden and deny Al Qaeda a safe haven." This is the current meme. bin Laden is probably dead. Al Qaeda will continue to have a safe haven as long as we seek military objectives in Afghanistan. It will become another Iraq with more liaions to dope pushers. "I don't think that this is a big deal either ideologically or in monetary terms. He says that his program participants will not be allowed to to use the money to preach or discriminate in hiring. So his program would be little change from they way it was before Bush." this means that our tax dollars are going to support "faith-based initiatives whether we like it or not and that there is no That to me is a big deal. It's also a violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution. This makes Obama like Bush. >3. He has also caved in on the Telecoms. "That was disappointing to me as well. Ultimately it was the Bush administration's fault that the Telecoms were being sued. Hopefully, Obama, once elected will pursue the matter where it should be pursued, through the Justice Department." Don't hold your breath. Obama is beholden to these corporate interests and any other idea is naive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM Al Queda will flourish as long as... 1. The USA and Britain keep alienating Muslim populations, and... 2. as long as the USA and Britain still think they need an Al Queda out there to scare people with. One "safe haven" will be quickly replaced by another. You don't want to kill the goose that lays the imperial eggs, after all. How could we fight more wars if there was no one left to fight? Without more wars, what would our enormous defense industries do to make a living? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:20 PM Hardball's take on the real Obama. Hard head and a big heart! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Boris Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:39 PM "Yes, things have been getting more reasonable lately." But things are not as fun as when Martin Gibson ruled Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:06 PM As the interview on Hardball quotes, OPbama's own take on himself is the problem of balancing a hard head with a big heart. I would not have him be any less hard headed; nor smaller hearted. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:47 PM Obama has taken up arms agains the Irish. This just in... 'In a memo to reporters, described as "a few guidelines we sent staff before departure to the Middle East," Obama advance staffer Peter Newell laid out rules on attire for Jordan and Israel. First among them: "Do not wear green."' |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Ebbie Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:19 PM Dang. Now he's thrown the Irish under the bus. Where will it stop? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:42 PM Is green a meaningful color in Arab countries? What was the actual deal? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:04 PM If Obama (secretly) has in fact no intention of withdrawing from Iraq...and I think that is probably the case...there is just one thing that I will find funny about that in retrospect... It will surprise the hell out of DougR. ;-) His faith in the awfullness of "liberals" depends on Obama doing all the "wrong" things (as Doug would define them). He won't know how to explain it if the Democrats do not do what he expects and "cut and run" from Iraq...but I'm sure he'll still find something bad about how they handle the occupation. As for me, I'll still be opposing the American military presence there 100% and looking forward to the day when they leave in haste and the door hits them hard on the ass on the way out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:12 PM Well, LH, if you're paying taxes in this country, and you've seen a decline in government services, maybe the door has already hit you in the ass. As power hungry as Obama seems to be, it would be amazing to me to see him walk away from a war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:21 PM LH, like Aesop's cat on the roof mocking the fox, issues his proclamations from the safe harbor of Canada, Rig. His own country has the same problems, but they are not the dramatic stage the world watches so much. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: artbrooks Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:35 PM Amos, wearing green is a symbol that a Muslim has made the "haj" pilgrimage to Mecca. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:36 PM My country does have the same problems, just as Amos says. To a lesser extent...but bascially the same problems. We are participating in the war in Afghanistan, and we are selling arms all over the place. There's a huge arms industry in Canada. And yes, we have suffered damage as a society because of it. A majority of Canadians would prefer we were not in Afghanistan...but our government is a corporate servant, just like yours is, Rig, so we are so far "staying the course", and losing lives steadily in the process. Our government did not join the Iraq war simply because public opposition here would have been so massive that they didn't consider it politically feasible to do that. I expect that Obama will stay the course in Iraq and the whole region around there. I hope he surprises me, though, and withdraws American troops. I would bet three to one that that will not happen....I would even bet five to one that it won't happen. But if it does, I'd be delighted to lose that bet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:55 PM Thanks, Art. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:31 AM On "Race for the the White House" today the guest host said that calling it a "dress code" rather than "guidelines" would come back to bite Obama because "the press doesn't like to be told what to do." Do you think that show might be scraping the bottom of the barrel for nits to pick? Its a difficult job they have. Report McCain's gaffes, then making up crap to criticize Obama for so that they will look balanced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:04 AM Their desperate search for something, anything to raise controversy about is reminiscent of an ape searching fruitlessly through another ape's fur for a flea that cannot be found.... They pretend that it's all "news". It isn't. It's entertainment, a low, tawdry form of entertainment, mind you, but that's what the media game requires. I am reminded of the paparazzi who pursue people like Angelina Jolie all over the world, hoping to catch a grainy shot of her taking her top off, said shot snapped through a hotel window from a treetop 500 feet away, with a telephoto lens. Ah yes, the glories of independent journalism! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:13 AM "Dang. Now he's thrown the Irish under the bus. Where will it stop?" It won't stop any time soon. I have it on good authority that he's headed for Germany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Morris Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM The only people paying attention to the election are pundits, media whores, and political junkies. Once Obama won the nomination, everyone began to ignore him, McCain, and their circuses. All this conjecturing and pontificating is inside the Beltway echo chamber crap. Especially the "foreign" trip to look presidential. What's on pay per view, honey? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:13 AM Gee, Morris, that was a really interesting point of view. Well, a little bit, anyway... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Donuel Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM As George Carlin said, "if its advertised as REAL, it isn't. The only thing I have ever seen literally thrown under a bus in Washington DC was a phone booth during a mass demonstration against yet another war. We are in the whining stage of the campaign by McCain. The September surprise is designed to occur just soon enough for the alledged scandal to sink in but not enough time to fully regute it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM I can't wait! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:25 PM Nor I. I hope the "September surprise" does not bear similarities to one we had about 7 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Morris Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM It's the October surprise, I believe. Please don't rush us into election mode any sooner than necessary; the election sale ads last long enough as it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM Election campaigns and Christmas. Both very expensive. Both very long. Both offering much more than they deliver. Both apparently unavoidable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 08 - 03:01 PM In Canada, Christmas starts November 1 In the US we have Thanksgiving in between Halloween and Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Donuel Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM True , it used to be the October surprise. We used to see Thanksgiving decorations in stores before Xmas too. Now is a festive combination of Xmas/Halloween decorations. Almost poetic isn't it. The real Obama is a huge impediment to the safety of all our war criminals. If he were smart he would cut a deal to insure that the Bush crew stays out of prison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Real Obama From: Donuel Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM The only real Barack character I have found in a Hollywood movie is a sci fi flick called "This Island Earth" Barack is the Alien who is evil for a good reason. |
