 sj |
||
|
||
National I.D. Card
|
|
|
Subject: National I.D. Card From: Troll Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM The news states that President Bush is considering implementation of a Notional I.D.Card. While he is not in favor of it, he is nevertheless considering it as is Tony Blair. Comments? troll |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: SINSULL Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM And the INS is considering tracking aliens who are legally in the country on temporary visas. Up 'til now, they haven't kept track of them even to make sure they leave. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Big Mick Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM As I have always said. The Bill of Rights is usually the first victim in these events. Hey George, how about we just start funding INS and Customs in an appropriate way so they can enforce the laws on the books already? Oh, .... wait.......we spent the money on the feckin' tax refund. Dumb idea. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: CarolC Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:59 PM I what ways would the national ID card differ from Social Security cards and other currently used forms of identification? Are there any democraticly governed nations that currently use national ID cards? |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM What the hell is the point? I live in a state with "copy proof, holographic imaged" Driver's Licenses and they get copies all the time. I fail to see how this would do anything but possibly slow them down just a tiny bit and set up more muggings. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:11 AM Can I buy gas with it? Can I use it at the library? Will it allow me to drive? Will it get me into Sam's Club and get me a discount at Safeway? Can I wear it on a chain on my neck to get into "privileged" areas? We have so many forms of identification to carry nowadays. Wouldn't if be a relief to have just one form of identification, something that could be linked to a fingerprint or eye scan or PIN for important things. If I could carry just one card, I would be very pleased.... -Joe Fatwallet- |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Liz the Squeak Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM Just one step closer to barcoding babies on the backs of their hands.... sure would make life a bit easier.... and my trip to work less fraught. At present, if I pay for a season ticket with a card, I use 4 different cards to get me onto a train and into my office. If I ride in, it's 5 - cards to get me petrol (gas), door passes, car park passes, ID for work, so on and so on..... If issued in a sensitive way, National ID's could be very useful. If an insensitive operator is selected (in the grand tradition of 'best value' = most work for least money), then it could be the start of one of the most oppressive systems since the Reichcarte. LTS |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:52 AM No shit...how many forms of ID do I need? I got a passport, a driver's license, the ID badge for work, an MMD, social security card...hell my fecking wallet has more cards in it than it does money...and I agree with Mick...Why not use the money to enforce the laws on the book...but then what the hell do I know...I'm just a poor socialist...who is afraid I might be carted off someday... amergin |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM The right to privacy is established in American law but it is not explicit in the Bill of Rights, aside from the 4th Amendment's "secure in effects and possessions, etc". A national ID card means that your actions and whereabouts are not private, or at least not if a government agent asks. On the other hand, a driver's license is just as much a tracking device -- any competent investigator can find out your Social Security umber from your DMV record, and thence 'most anything else. But a state system is one thing; a Federal system is something altogether else. Not sure I like it at all, at all. It seems to invert the power flow from individuals to a Federal government and turn it the other way, as though without an artifact provided by the Federal Government your personhood is suspect. Nasty bit of business, with possible long-range harmful effects. I say to hell with that idea. Amos |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM Once again, I ask, what would be the point? How would this aid the terrorist problem? The guys who want anything to do with this one because they think it will be a counter terrorism device must obviously know nothing about the criminal underworld. It's totally nuts! Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: mooman Date: 24 Sep 01 - 03:33 AM In answer to CarolC's question, Belgium has national identity cards and I have to have one and carry one at all times living here. I have never been asked to show it to anyone in 10 years so it does not appear to have adversely affected my human rights. So no special objections from me to the idea. mooman |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Haruo Date: 24 Sep 01 - 03:53 AM Back in the Vietnam Draft era all of us who were the right age, sex etc. had to carry our draft cards (at least, the one I still have, from ca. 1972, explicitly states that I must always carry it, no expiration date that I can discern - which is not actually why I still have it ;-). On the other hand, I was brought up to believe that internal passports were one of the several reasons we were better than the Russians, i.e. they had them, we didn't. Liland |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Murray MacLeod Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:11 AM I have to say that it has always surprised me somewhat that the INS does NOT keep track of the whereabouts of aliens. My conditional status gets finally altered to permanent in January (I hope) but at the moment the INS haven't a clue where I am. Murray |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: MudGuard Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:21 AM In Germany we have ID-cards. We are in theory required to have either the ID card or a passport with us t all times - but no policeman has ever stopped me and asked for it. I only needed it within Germany for some paperwork (e.g. applying for passport and driver license). Also it is necessary if I want to get mail which could not delivered to my home from the post office - so nobody but me can get at my mail. I mostly use the ID card for travelling abroad as most European countries (at least all the European Union as well as Poland, Czechia, Hungary) accept it instead of a passport. I think a driver's licence does not meet the requirements for a proof of identity as not everyone gets one (e.g. blind people).
|
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Banjer Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:20 AM How many underage youngsters have 'fake ID' to get them into places they shouldn't legally be? I had one when I was in high school. It was a very official looking document. What would stop someone with Bin Laden's money from copying whatever we are issued? |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 24 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM Be interesting to see how Charlton Heston & the "pry it from my cold, dead hands" crew of guardians of the rights of Americans react to this. I bet we don't hear a peep. Doesn't take Bin Laden's money either. You can get an excellent fake passport on the streets of NY City for way less than $1k. This won't make a bit of difference in safety or security- its just a sop to make people THINK they're more secure. But it sure will cost a fortune to implement & increase the size of the Federal Government significantly to implement. Thought these Republicans wanted to eliminate useless government programs, reduce the size of government and fight crime (like gun violence) by "enforcing existing laws..." & all that pap? Guess not..... Best, Greg |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM ...meanwhile, get all yer gov't digs in while you can, 'cause once this Orifice of Homeland Security gets the necessary huge infusion of money it needs to spy on everyone, statements like "Screw Bush" or "the gov't sucks" just might arouse their suspicions and get you branded as a 'potential' terrorist. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Troll Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:06 AM Heres the latest on the Nat. I.D. XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUNDAY SEPT 23 2001 20:02:37 ET XXXXX BUSH CONTEMPLATES NATIONAL ID CARD FOR ALL CITIZENS **Exclusive** A highly controversial option has emerged for use in fighting terrorism in the United States: A national ID card which would be issued to every citizen. A proposal for the creation of a national ID card was presented to President Bush in recent days, top government sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT. The ID card plan was included in a classified briefing outlining steps the nation can take to limit exposure to terror attacks. Bush briefly discussed the ID card option with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, according to insiders. MORE "I can tell you this, the president is very reluctant [to issue a national ID card]," (italics mine) a top White House source said on Sunday. "But we must look at all options." Just as House Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt [D-MO] says Congress should quickly move to open debate on security measures such as a national ID card. "We are in a new world," Gephardt said. "This event will change the balance between freedom and security." SAFETY FROM A CHIP ORACLE Chairman and CEO Larry Ellison this weekend called for the United States to create a national identification system -- and offering to donate the software to make it possible -- free-of-charge. "We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint digitized and embedded in the ID card," Ellison said in an interview Friday night on the evening news of KPIX-TV in San Francisco. Blair has tentatively approved identity cards which will be introduced for the first time in Britain. The universal identity card leads major papers in London on Monday: 'ID CARDS FOR ALL' fronts the TIMES. 'IDENTITY CARDS ON THE WAY IN FIGHT ON TERROR' headlines the MAIL. 'WE'RE ALL GOING TO HAVE ID CARDS' splashes the SUN. MORE Blair has opted for a voluntary scheme in issuing the card, rejecting a compulsory "on demand" card because of connotations with Nazi Germany, where lack of proper identity cards could result in instant arrest, according to reports. However, it will be virtually impossible for anyone to live a normal life without the new ID card in England - possession of a valid card will be necessary for boarding an aircraft, buying gas, opening a bank account, starting a job or claiming government benefits. UK. Home Secretary David Blunkett on Sunday questioned the idea of a "voluntary card". "It would not be a great deal of help" in the fight against terrorism, Blunkett said on BBC1's On the Record. Blunkett stressed the need to balance the fight against terrorism with the freedoms of a liberal society. But he said that his "instincts" were that beating terror must take priority and that politicians' ability to act must not be hamstrung by an excessively legalistic approach to human rights. New laws are expected to be rushed through the U.K.'s Parliament in coming weeks to allow for the legality of a mandatory ID card. In a nationwide poll released Sunday, a stunning 85% of Brits would welcome a national ID card system in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the United States, with an overwhelming majority calling for the cards to be packed with information to clearly identify the holder: These include photograph (97%), date of birth (96%) eye color (92%), a finger print (85%), DNA details (75%), criminal records (74%) and religion (67%). Stateside, U.S. Rep. George Gekas [R-PA], chairman of the House immigration subcommittee, told reporters last week that Congress could no longer reject out of hand a national ID card system for citizens. In a survey released Wednesday by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, seven of 10 Americans favored a requirement that citizens carry a national identity card at all times. The proposal had particularly strong support from women. ORACLE's Ellison said in the electronic age, little privacy is left anyway. "Well, this privacy you're concerned about is largely an illusion,'' he told PIX's anchorman Hank Plante. "All you have to give up is your illusions, not any of your privacy. Right now, you can go onto the Internet and get a credit report about your neighbor and find out where your neighbor works, how much they earn and if they had a late mortgage payment and tons of other information." Developing... ----------------------------------------------------------- Filed By Matt Drudge
So there you have it folks. Fresh off the press, as it were. troll |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Mrrzy Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:08 AM Growing up outside the US, I always had ID; in the US I don't HAVE to carry it but I always do, what if I'm hit and run like that army guy whose kids were then left alone for 4 days with the elder (3) dealing with the younger (10 months) till the wife, also in the military, called to wonder? Basically I have fear of ending up J. Doe somewhere, I'd rather be identified. Look at Singapore, isn't it, that has the one-card-for-all? All you lose is your privacy, which is overrated anyway... |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM "I mostly use the ID card for travelling abroad as most European countries (at least all the European Union as well as Poland, Czechia, Hungary) accept it instead of a passport. " - I'd check that, Mudguard, if I were you and I wanted to travel to the United Kingdom. I think if they asked to check your passport, an ID card wouldn't do. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM What are the constitutional implications of this? I know of friends who have gotten away with bluntly refusing to produce I.D. when randomly asked by the Police. My impression is that such a request would violate the protection against Search and Seizure, but then again, I was naive enough to think that that so-called Safety Check roadblocks would never hold up under legal scrutiny. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM No passport necessary for us in GB (and most other European countries) if we carry our ID card.
Actual list of countries open without passport (copied from a German page): Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Arnie Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM "Anything made by man can be forged by man". I've read that good forgeries of Euros have already been seized before the genuine currency is even distributed! There is not much point in introducing id cards in the UK as 56 million law-abiding citizens will carry genuine ones and half a million illegals will get fake ones within the week. The only advantage will be to travel in Europe without a passport. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: MudGuard Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM McGrath of Harlow, about a month ago (10th of August) I did my last test on that - I came to the UK just carrying the ID card. No problem leaving the country on 2nd of September, too. Did work the same in 2000, 1999, 1998, 1986, and 1984. MudGuard |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Skeptic Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM I agree with Amos. For questionable benefits the possibilities for abuse are ominous. There is already a movement in Congress to limit the use of personal information collected by businesses. What happens when a national ID card is required to be used routinely (else why have one) and the information collected is fed into a central database. And stays there. The temptation to use the information for anything from the war on drugs to profiling to catching underage drinking would be a powerful one. And not to be used in Court but used unofficially to figure out who to put under surveillance for various crimes having nothing to do with terroism. Regards John |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Cllr Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM Great! With a really good ID card (chips and all) we could bring back the poll tax! _runs and ducks for cover_ Cllr |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Cllr Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:06 AM Seriously, I think there is a lot to be said for a decent ID card I agree with LtS that it would have to be sensitively handled. Cllr |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Donuel Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM If it goes forward expect the sell to be a wide spread TV campaign " IF YOU LOVE YOUR HOMELAND DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT" |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Kim C Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM Most of us already have ID cards of one kind or another. Here in Tennessee, even if you don't drive, you can go to the DMV and have an ID made with your photo on it, stamped For Identification Only. I don't know if other states do that or not. A National ID would only be in the hands of law-abiding citizens and would have little, if any, effect on criminals. Sounds like the Mark of the Beast to me. Has anyone considered Tony Blair might be the Antichrist? |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: KingBrilliant Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM Oh shite! Another thing for me to lose... Kris (who once lost a toothbrush then found it when opening mouth to ask parents where it might be.....) |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Donuel Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM How will it be used??????????????? No ID card no admittence to any public event. For those with an ID but posess suspicious features will be detained up to 48 hours. # one reason for being late to work. I couldn't find my national ID card. ???????????????? |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: RichM Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM We are moving into a world where everyone will be issued an identification device at birth. For now it might be cards. Then implants. Information to be included: Fingerprints, retinal scans, and genetic information. And maybe a tattoo-ed bar code?
|
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM I already have one. It's a Social Security Card, and I've had it since the 1930's. I'm often asked to show or tell someone what it is, including the Federal Government which insists that I included it on my tax form. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: jaze Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:27 AM Why not a gov't ID card for non-citizens.It seems it's the gov't who has dismally failed to do it's job of tracking people in this country. Our freedoms should not be taken away. Let these measures apply to those who are only here (supposedly) on a temporary basis. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Troll Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM Good idea jaze. But the illegal aliens already here don't get green cards, so why would future aliens get a Govt. I.D.? troll |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: RWilhelm Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:19 AM I used to have a card that I got when I was 18 that identified me to Selective Service. It said I was supposed to carry it at all times but I think I lost it. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM See? We already have various and sundry forms of ID. A national ID is another taxpayer expense, another thing to carry around, and another thing to lose. I like jaze's idea of keeping up with visitors, but I'll be damned if I know how to make it work. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM The people who would follow the procedures already do. The people who don't are the very people we're "guarding" against. I don't like the constitutional ramifications of either a national ID card or a "Homeland Security agency" Shades of 1984! Neil. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM And once we get to rely on the ID card as a means of verification, it will make it easier for someone with a fake one to do more damage. Remember that it is not necessary to produce an exact replica in order to succeed in committing an illegal act. It is only necessary for it to be good enough to fool someone once. Jock |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Mac Tattie Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM I am old enough, only just, to have had identity card from the tail-end of WWII. I was also brought up watching all those prisoner of war filims where documents were always forged using cut-out potatoes to stamp out official seals and dye washed out of blankets for ink. My card looked as if it had been made in this way. Bigest problem with ID cards could be that if the information that is collated when the card is first issued is wrong or altered in some way, this wrong/altered information could well be regarded as being more correct than reality. So if your date of birth is out by ten years your pension and retirement dates could be a long time coming and I hate to think what could happen if your card was stamped for the wrong sex!!!!. cheers. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST,Melani Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:50 PM I agree with DougR (!) and Spaw. a. We already have social security cards. b. A national ID card wouldn't have done any good in this situation, since the terrorists had entered the country legally, had no criminal records, and broke no laws until they hijacked the planes. The only clues to their plans were their actions prior to the event--but it's not illegal to enroll in flight school or research crop dusting. Only good old-fashioned John LeCarre-style espionage would have helped prevent the tragedy, so I think we'd better get over our delicacy about consorting with bad guys and get back to it. These guys came from a highly sophisticated organization that has a lot of resources and has been planning for years, and only another highly sophisticated underground network is going to be effective against them. Bombing Afghanistan will achieve nothing but killing Afghanis, which the Taliban seems to be doing pretty effectively already. It will probably happen, just because some obvious response gesture has to be made, but it ain't gonna do any real good. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM Like I keep saying, we're going to have to throw fancy-dancy technology and educated tactics out the window, and get back to some good old-fashioned fisticuffs and spyin and all that. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Penny S. Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM It's if all I want to do is go out for an old fashioned walk, or to lie on the beach or something casual like that, and I'm breaking the law if I don't carry my ID...that's not the freedom I grew up thinking we had protected in the war... Blunkett was suggesting that a card would be the citizen's entitlement to all the things we are entitled to..benefit, pension, health and so on. We've got that sort of thing .. somewhere. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: GUEST,petr Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM re privacy. I remember 20 yrs ago I did a paper on privacy and EFTs Electronic Funds Transfer SYstem, dont delude yourself into thinking you will lose your privacy with an Id card. they can track your visa or debit card spending and for that matter any banking you do. along with cell phone telephone calls, and even library withdrawals. several of the terrorists involved in the hijacking terror all reported their passports stolen around the same time in Germany (supposedly to hide any trips to countries like Afghanistan that would have aroused suspicions) At the very least the id card system and passport system should be linked and flags should go up if people have reported stolen passports. Plenty of democratic countries have national ID cards and in the US and Canada you use cards that are not intended for that purpose like Social Security and Drivers Licence. Credit Card companies are moving toward picture cards as well. For that matter people should be opposed to video surveillance cameras in public places, but I think the benefits (catching the criminals) outweigh the cons, namely privacy loss. (ITs already there anyway, if you use credit cards) petr |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: VoxFox Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM KimC, I agree completely we need to get us some real live James Bonds and Saints in order to defeat these monsters at the source.Being from Canada, we also have enough ID cards to weigh down the wallet so a National or International card wouldn't really be practical. Had my say. Thanks for listening, VF (new member) |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Gareth Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:48 PM Hmmm! Where does a nudist carry his or her I D card ??? IN the UK we have I D chips implanted under the skin for dogs and moggies to return lost dogs etc to thier keeper, and to verify the anti rabies laws. In principle I don't object to an I D card, but I have this rankling feeling that if you give big brother a power some jumped up jobsworth will misuse it. I also remember the South African Pass Laws, as some one said earlier in this thread, "Don't leave your homelands without it" Totsiens (sp) Gareth. |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM VoxFox: welcome to the madness! Melani: careful agreeing on what Spaw and I think. We are usually 180 degrees apart on anything political, and he might object to being lumped in with moi. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Melani Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:46 AM DougR--I'm just astonished at having the unusual experience of agreeing with you! |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM We would be better off, and have less expense, issuing trackable cards to non-citizens -- they are so far still outnumbered by the citizens, I think. Microtransponders could give off a trace pulse at airports, bus stations and travel junctions so that we could find out when an immigrant who was not a citizen had flown off somewhere else, rented a car, etc. Dunno how much us eit would be in prevention but it would accelerate investigations -- and it would be the US Government provising security to its citizens, rather than harassing them. If you became a citizen you could turn in your Natl ID card. A, |
|
Subject: RE: National I.D. Card From: Auxiris Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:26 AM As a resident alien here in France, I am required to carry a "carte de séjour" (renewable every 10 years) at all times, though it is not considered to be valid unless I can also produce my passport. In the 16 years I've been living over here, I've NEVER been asked for my papers. cheers, Aux
|
| Share Thread: |