ASCAP is in a suing mood

Subject: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:21 PM

Although this isn't about live performance for which royalties aren't being paid, it does appear that ASCAP is checking in on some venues that have recorded music but have paid no royalties. You can read it in this article:
Music suit creates discord

SC

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 01:47 PM

Copied from my own post in a discussion of this issue on Flatpick-L:

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There's nothing wrong, in theory, with places that have music that's copyrighted paying for the privilege, with these caveats:

1) The payments should be to one central outfit - this thing of two or more outfits each demanding a separate payment is unreasonable. When you're doing a recording, you can work with just Harry Fox - I'm no fan of Harry Fox, but at least there's only one of them - not both ASCAP and BMI to start with, and gawd knows what other outfits coming out of the woodwork.

2) The total payment required should be reasonable in terms of the venue's cash flow _attributable to music_. Thus in a place where people go to do serious drinking and they have some poor stiff with a guitar in the corner, the payment should be very small even if the cash flow is huge.

3) Should not have to pay if they just have recorded or radio music. That's already had one royalty paid on it.

4) If they have live performers, the money should go to the composers in proportion to the amount of actual performance - not based on radio play as it is now. I'm glad to have Tom Russell get some money if I sing a Tom Russell song in a bar, but it burns my a** to think of Michael Jackson getting it.

I don't think the present system meets any of those standards.

Peter

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: pitheris
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:32 AM

Don't forget the third one: SESAC. We started up a small coffee house last winter, with live music on Friday nights. 15-30 people for an audiance. The owner of the cafe was contacted last month by SESAC. We looked at the only option available to use for licenses. It would cost about $900/year for the three licenses. The only money generated by the coffee house was "pass the hat" for the performers. So we have given up.

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: pitheris
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 02:38 PM

Good read on the issue
here

If you are under any delusions thinking that it is OK because you are only doing music that is public domain. . .

QUOTE:
technically is no such thing as public domain, since arrangements become property of their arrangers. This is certainly the case with centuries-old classical and folk music, whose copyrights have long since expired, but whose performances are being regulated by ASCAP and BMI as copyrighted arrangements. In fact, ASCAP has over 40 arrangements of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata on file, and even more amazing, nearly 80 versions of Row, Row, Row Your Boat!

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:22 PM

It would be interesting to see them try to test that in court. A good defense lawyer would have them try to identify the particular arrangement that was being infringed and trace a "chain of custody" to the performance that "infringed" that arrangement.

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:58 PM

Pitheris:

Thanks much for that link. It was, in fact, a good "Reid".

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: Skivee
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE:
technically is no such thing as public domain, since arrangements become property of their arrangers. This is certainly the case with centuries-old classical and folk music, whose copyrights have long since expired, but whose performances are being regulated by ASCAP and BMI as copyrighted arrangements. In fact, ASCAP has over 40 arrangements of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata on file, and even more amazing, nearly 80 versions of ! Row, Row, Row Your Boat!
It's amazing that ASCAP would have any standing in a court case based on this theory, but without proof that a particular arrangement had actually been used
That is to say, if you record "Row, Row, Row Your Boat", they believe that YOU MUST HAVE learned it from an ASCAP administered arrangement.
What self-serving hogwash. The onus of proving specific infringment is on the party that alleges damage.
Oh, and by the way, if ASCAP and their ilk can't prove that specific administered songs are being performed in a venue, then they can't claim that,"Well, our stuff MIGHT have been performed, so you owe us."
If the bar doesn't play tunes off a commercial radio and plays CDs without ASCAP affiliation, then ASCAP has NO grounds to strongarm the place into payments.
They try to give the immression that they can demand payments with a legal basis behind the demand, but they frequently don't.
Folkie venues CAN stand up against them when they are wrongly accused of infringment!
If enough countersue, then the bastards will have to take another tack.

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 09:41 PM

"If enough countersue, then the bastards will have to take another tack."

But they can afford to waste much more money than the little guys, unfortunately...

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: Genie
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 01:47 AM

So if you sing a Stephen Foster song, that you got from 19th C. sheet music, and ASCAP sues you on the grounds that your "arrangement" bears too much resemblance to one that they've marked as their territory, what happens if you just let them take you to court and you act as your own attorney and show the court the public-domain source that obviously predates any copyrighted arrangement?

Genie

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 02:11 AM

Got it in one there Fooles... how many folk venues do you know can afford to cover their own costs, let alone a potential thousand dollar/pound lawsuit?

LTS

Subject: RE: ASCAP is in a suing mood
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 01:46 AM

A local - to me - accordion festival gets stood over to the tune of several hundred at least - each year - 'trad' & 'folk' & 'self penned' claims won't do...