How can a folkie make a living?

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Betsy
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 09:35 PM

Difficult - If Tom Bliss can't make it work, and he's bloody good, think very seriously.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 09 - 11:11 PM

'Yes, Mooh: 'real job', stress, burnout. I'm doing that now. I've had enough of it. This is why I ask the question. I want to know how not having a 'real job' can work in practice."

It can work in practice. For me it's because there is spousal support (she's basically my office manager), a good supportive arts interested accountant between us and Revenue Canada, frugal spending on business necessities (advertising, printing, vehicle), but the providers/services know us and we have great relationships with these folks. As much as possible (ie, over 90%), my income is paid in advance and held at our bank until the month of services (ie, lessons) being rendered. Keep regular hours, minimum rescheduling, get advice, stay current, always include theory in everything. Network, especially where it means prospective gigs, recording sessions, students, and community exposure.

Don't overlook trade of services for services. Lessons, for carpentry/plumbing/electrical or gear. Community concerts for ad space, or sales opportunities.

Do not work "under the table". Tax deductions, rebates, exemptions are worth the trouble of being honest, never mind peace of mind.

Pay forward. Bills can pile up if you let them sit. As much as possible, anticipate slow periods and get the big bills (loans, mortgage) paid ahead.

Save towards a financial cushion for sick time, vacation, and unexpected expenses. Save also for a gear fund.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST,guest John Hartford
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 07:36 AM

hi Alice

You are so right !!!

When I started to learn to play music I did it because it was something that I really wanted to do.

Making money did not enter my mind. I just wanted to learn all I could and that's what I worked at.

Secondly I actually enjoyed learning and the process of improving. Enjoyment for me was paramount.

The process of meeting like-minded people and joining a band was a natural one for me as I happen to be a very gregarious person.

Actually making money just happened !!!! HONESTLY

I happened to be in the right era when it was possible with the right breaks to be able to earn a good living out of playing music.

At that time for most of the time we were playing what we enjoyed - OK there was sometimes when we had to compromise but not often.

I did weary eventually of the constant need to travel and be away from my family.

The lyrics of the then popular John Denver song Goodbye Again seemed to summarise what made me start to want to stop so much travelling and settle down to working more from home.

see link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqoqcwiUM9c

regards

John

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 07:51 AM

How can a folkie make a living?

1. Set up a limited company. Make sure your limited company has a fairly broad description of its remit: "multimedia and entertainment content creation" or the like. Keep all your receipts. In one fell swoop everything that was previously money down the drain (guitars, strings, travel, petrol, rail tickets, manufacturing CDs, studio hire etc etc) becomes a legitimate expense. It also encourages you to "think professional"

2. Put out an album that you have recorded properly and mastered professionally. Press up 1000 copies (at least) and send the majority of them to reviewers, festival organisers, writers, folk clubs, websites, radio stations, internet radio stations, venues.
Make sure the reviewers you send them to aren't just 'folk' media but national newspapers and magazines too. Never be afraid to give CDs away - that's promotion and an expense. Your postage costs are an expense.

That's a good way to start. At the very least it'll give you an idea as to whether anybody gives a toss about what you're doing.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM

good advice matt milton.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:04 PM

If you want to do it, you can. There are lots of folks who say you can't. There are lots of reasons they will list but to my mind those are just excuses. Assuming you have some skill and a love for your music, you an do it.

There've been a few good practical comments here for tactics and strategies, but just get out there and get do it. The details will fall out of the effort. You'll find lots of folks like me and others who've done this - and we're only too happy to offer help and advice. It's been a tough row to hoe, and we're happy to help a fellow just getting started. To pay back the help that we got from others ...

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: folktheatre
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:25 PM

Did someone recommend becoming a molecatcher? I understand where your coming from mate. I have a 'proper' job for the council where I make barely above minimum wage so becoming a full time musician seems very tempting but still not feasible even when I compare it against my meagre wage but I supplement it with teaching (at which I don't rate myself highly but it's something I have to do). It's a bit patronising when people say get a proper job. Like what? An investment banker? Sure! It doesn't happen. Like anything you have to take a risk and try and keep your head screwed on and instead of asking in here try snatching a word with a musician after or before a gig!

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:25 PM

When I was part of a trio, back in the early 1960's, we had an agent, a number of bookings and some money coming in. But, those bookings could be a bit erratic, the money not wonderful and, split three ways, even less so. I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything, but I gave my musician son some advice which was based on that experience: Get a regular job in order to support your music habit until it pays well enough to support you. He's been at it for over 11 years and still has his regular job, despite some small successes.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

I'll try to reread my next comment before I hit "submit message" - my posts surely need editing, above! Sorry about that. I hope you can figure out what I meant to say.

BUT - it occurs to me that there are many ways to make this work, and you have to find what works for you - or maybe I should say; find what YOU can make work.

When I started earning my living at music, I decided I wanted to earn all of living from the performance of music. I did not want to teach. I did not want to work in a music store or in the business end of the entertainment industry - but that was a personal choice. There ARE good means of income from some of those tasks, if that is something you enjoy and feel supports your music efforts.

I started out working a mix Pub gigs, festivals and concerts. They are all very different, from a performance perspective - but each taught me core lessons for my main interest; that is performing my music for people (and of course getting paid for it).

I still work that same mix - but with a greater focus on concerts and festivals. I'd give up the pubs in a heartbeat, but I need them. I need them for money. I need them to meet new people (people who'll buy CDs and come to other shows) and I need them to keep me humble! That is, make sure I continue to learn how to please an audience - or more correctly; how to get my music across to an audience. Pubs are hard, but they are good for you. They force you to learn your craft.

You have to work the business side very hard. Get your music recorded - and make the album a true work of art. As Matt Milton says above; "Put out an album that you have recorded properly and mastered professionally. Press up 1000 copies (at least) and send the majority of them to reviewers, festival organisers, writers, folk clubs, websites, radio stations, internet radio stations, venues." - This is just so important. The world needs to hear you and you need to put your best foot forward.

I have learned that I have to travel to make ends meet. I try to work once or twice a month in my hometown - and I work the big festivals in the region - but I need to continually find new audience to grow. And I need to reconnect with old friends in places I play 3 or 4 times a year. So I travel. A lot. I travel frequently within the region (a sort of radius of 9 or so hours' drive from my home) and I make several trips to either coast each year.

I've stumbled into licensing music to film and TV. That helps with a bit of income and is really good advertizing (I don't have an advertizing budget). And I've developed a few music relationships with other players that can help add to my performance schedule. All of these things help keep me growing and pay the mortgage.

I've also learned the on-line tools for promo and music distribution. CDBaby - gets me to all of the MP3 Services (iTunes, etc) and CDBaby has been a great partner for selling CD around the world on-line. Myspace and Youtube are very helpful promotion tools. And FaceBook has been surprisingly helpful for direct communication with friends, music partners and (I hate to use the word) fans.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

Someone mentioned my name, and deep in the vast caverns below the glinting minarets of academia I heard. And came.

You don't need a limited company to claim expenses. Just have music down as one of your business activities.

You can give away all the CDs you like. Only a handful with be played, and most of them will not be followed up. The internet helps, but phone-bashing and word of mouth - backed up by a consistent track record and a fistful of great reviews is the only way. But then getting gigs was never a problem for me.

Filling chairs was.

I tried all the short-cuts. And the long cuts. Some worked after a fashion, but not well enough. The big ones (major support tours/collaborations, national media exposure - a talent transplant / youth injection / voice retune) all eluded my best efforts.

By the way - if contributors are genuinely interested in providing useable advice, they might mention which country they're referring to.

I can only speak about the UK. I suspect things are very different across the pond - which may be why there is such variation in the advice above.

I should make it clear that I did all the things suggested so far, but I was only interested in building up a nation-wide touring business. If I'd stayed in Leeds and played hospitals and care homes I'd have made slightly less money, but with lower costs I probably could have gone on making a living indefinitely. But that wasn't the idea. Pub gigs likewise. I gave up believing I enjoyed them in about 1999. I did do a little corporate work, but again, wrong audience.

Last year I turned over £23k but my profit was just £10k (and yes I kipped in the van, stayed with friends and blagged meals along the road). I sort of managed on this, (though my kind wife allowed me to eat some of her shopping when I dropped in at home - yes, I do have one).

Things were in fact getting better year on year - but nothing like fast enough. I was running up a down escalator.

Tom and I had, after 8 years, become small-festival headliners, and 'undercard' stalwarts. Yet on our well-publicised farewell tour we had one audience of just 15 people. At one gig on my farewell trip round Scotland not one person came. Not one. (There were reasons, it transpired, but you'd have to be stupid not to read that rune)

I had a great profile and reputation and thousands of loyal fans on my list, but I frequently didn't draw enough people to cover my fee, and usually offered a reduction. But my offer was always refused (bless you all again) - and I was usually rebooked - only for it to happen again.

A majority of places were full or happily quorate, of course, though the quorum was often not really enough to justify the journey.

If the OP is interested, my article is still online on page 16

But please - don't let me put you off!

At the end of the day it's down to talent. I didn't have quite enough - but I know some who do and are proving me wrong (e.g. Flossie) , and you may well be one of them!

Tom

Now back to the essay... err... how many man hours does it take to coppice one hectare of hazel at 2.5m centres on a four year rotation? (rummage rummage)

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Eve Goldberg
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 12:52 PM

I think TJ has hit on something that was key for me.

I worked full time (managing a folk music record label) for a number of years. I was fortunate that my full-time job was related to my music. Through my job I learned a lot about the business side of music, and I got to meet and establish relationships with a lot of people in my work role. I can't tell you how invaluable that was. I feel incredibly lucky to have had that opportunity.

Then, when I quit working full time, I managed to find some part-time work that was very flexible. I got a decent hourly rate for it, I could set my own hours, and it was work that I didn't have to take home with me. My employer knew that music was my first priority, and was able to allow me to take a few weeks off at a time if something came up.

Having that job is what allowed me to make the transition to full-time music. I had time, I had some income coming in, but I had to make up the rest through gigs, CD sales, etc. And gradually, my music income went up, until I was earning more money from music than from my part-time job. At that point, I took the leap and quit the job. And I've never looked back.

So I consider myself extremely lucky in the job department. If you can find a part-time job where your employer knows your situation and is willing to accommodate your music career, you are in an ideal position to test the waters and see where music might take you, without having the huge stress of having to earn ALL your income from music.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:45 PM

"At the end of the day it's down to talent. I didn't have quite enough - but I know some who do and are proving me wrong !"

I really strongly disagree with Tom B's quote above. I don't think success - from a money, career point of view - has anything to do with talent. I'm tempted to type that it helps, but on reflection I don't think even that is true.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that it doesn't matter what sounds you are making - somewhere out there, there will be people somewhere in this world who will like them. The musicians who 'make it' are simply musicians who have managed to get their music to enough of those people. It's a mixture of determination and luck.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

Small paying regular gigs are better than the big ticket paying ones.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 01:58 PM

There's a really good illustration of just how arbitrary 'success' in music is, and that's Tom Robinson's twice-weekly radio show on 6Music, "Introducing with Tom Robinson". You can hear it on the iplayer.

The show consists entirely on unsigned bands and singers and acts. They are recommended by listeners. (I've actually recommended music that's been played on there, gratifyingly.)

But what's significant about the show is that it is indistinguishable from other shows on Radio 1 or 6music. In terms of the quality of the product (production, sound quality, songwriting etc) you are listening to basically the same thing. Now, you hear plenty of awful music on the show, but no more so than on other programmes on mainstream radio (it is predominantly a pop show after all!).

I think it's a very salutary listen, and a perfect illustration of how making money out of music is an almost entirely arbitrary.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

"The musicians who 'make it' are simply musicians who have managed to get their music to enough of those people. It's a mixture of determination and luck."

Absolutely, and I think I probably applied more determination than almost anyone (well, that's what they say).

But you have to make your own luck, and you need talent to do that.

If I'd been good enough at some point I'd have been invited to play with some established band, or to do a big support tour (I asked everyone!), or I'd have been played on mainstream radio, or eventually got some other break - I was around long enough - or I calculated that I had been, anyway)

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM

But what does 'good enough' mean? There aren't absolute standards of good and bad in music popularity: there is only whether you're popular or not.

I don't like the music of any of the current crop of big-name folk acts who can be said to be 'successful'. I'm not mentioning any names. By my standards, they are not 'good enough'.
They are not without talent, but that has nothing to do with their success.

Their success has to do with their very particular sound, and how they look and, yes, determination and luck again. If their music has anything in common, it's an agglomeration of unpleasant musical tropes known collectively as 'crossover appeal'.

Conversely, the folk musicians in Britain who make in my opinion the most successful art (and who I'm happy to name: Alasdair Roberts, James Raynard, Nancy Wallace, Michael Rossiter) are not in any danger of troubling the pop charts. Entirely uncoincidentally, they have none of those unpleasant musical tropes known collectively as 'crossover appeal'.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

How can a folkie make a living?

Banks. The answer is banks.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: jimmyt
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM

I decided in 1969 from observing other musicians struggling to make a go if it that I would keep my music as a passion, and find another career to afford me the luxury of getting to play with my passion, music. I was a jazz man back then. NOw a PLay a bit of Jazz and blues, folk and do-wop. Having an absolute ball performing, giving my share to the other musicians who need the bucks. It works for me, and it sure beats the hassle and disappointment of trying to do it as a career. Music is music, be it folk or otherwise. We are all underpaid, but what ya gonna do?

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:53 PM

I never went away.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 07:30 PM

"I never went away."
...and more power to your elbow for staying the course, but can you honestly say that it hasn't been a struggle?

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:31 AM

Wow heck of a thread Keep em coming..

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:29 AM

Wow, Some great advice here. I might try some of the suggestions and hope for the best.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Stower
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:55 AM

As the last 2 contributions have said, thank you, thank you all for your contributions. This has given me a lot to think about.

Having done some thinking, there are people I will want to talk to privately, within and beyond Mudcat.

But please keep 'em coming. Performers have given their experiences and advice. Are there any folkie promoters or record label people out there willing to have a say?

Thanks again.

Stower

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 07:43 AM

One of the problems with working in a band is that the promoters want to pay for one act and they expect you to split the same fee among three or more of you instead of paying three people.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:42 AM

"One of the problems with working in a band is that the promoters want to pay for one act and they expect you to split the same fee among three or more of you instead of paying three people."

"want" might be the wrong word. As a smallish time promoter I pay the maximum we can afford for any act...... if the act is going to bring in 3 times as many people, I can pay 3 times as much, if not, I can't.

It's the market, see.


As a member of a band, I know how difficult this can be for the acts.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: s&r
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:49 AM

This is why in hotel work etc a lot of performers use backing tracks (not a suggestion just an observation)

Stu

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:19 PM

Hmmm Backing tracks    oh dear.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 12:40 PM

Armed robbery can fetch a bit of a living... and does not get in the way of your night time gigs...

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

Assuming this was a serious question.

Treat your music like it is a business and you are a businessman. Learn your audience and what they want. If your audience requires Danny BOy and Wild ROver to stay in the bar of the man paying you then play Danny Boy and Wild Rover. Do six covers of the stuff that gets you hired for every one bit of original music or art song you play.

Keep good books of your business. Be accurate of the miles you travel and the expenses you clain to the IRS. Be prepare to lose money or breakeven for three of five years on the road.

Never be snotty, vulgar, or mean from the behind the mic. Microphones are always on and people are always listening. Always take and do a request but never do a song you barely know just because some cutie requested it. She'll be gone by the first break and everyone else will know you did a crummy job of someone's favorite tune.

Please the bartender as he is the man who pays you. Tip the waitress because she brings you a pint or a cup of coffee and she is working too. Don't leave the place a mess when you leave, the owner remembers.

Don

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:49 PM

yes Vic,it has, I have had to busk, I have taught music, and still do,
I refuse to play wallpaper gigs.I have in the past done one or two but
I would rather busk,because playing wallpaper music is soul destroying.
any gig is alright if the audience are not ignoring you,some people play hospitals[that is perfectly valid it gives people pleasure].
if you want to remain in love with your music and show it proper respect,and are hard up consider as extra to folk clubs
1.teaching.
2.busking.
3.hospital gigs.
4 school gigs.
but[imo] do not do unamplified or ampilfied solo pub gigs,where no one is listening.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:11 PM

I think the question has to be asked in more depth. What is your motivation for wanting to make a living at folk music? Is it just to gratify your ego? How much regard do you have for the music?   Is it just to promote your songs so that they will be picked up?
Do you really think that a larger audience will give a damn?

For a folkie to make a living at it, who are the best models for what you want to do?

And the final question is: why would you want to put yourself through this?
A songwriter once described his career as "pole vaulting through the glass window
of a ten story building and picking the splinters out of your skin when you made it through".

Both Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie were never motivated by wanting to make money at it. They both made a lot but in the case of the latter, it came too late. Joan Baez engineered her career quite well but took a lot of abuse from Dylan as one of her causes.
They spent a lot of time on the road by themselves away from friends and family.


Most successful folkies who made a living at it struggled and compromised their health and finances. Are you willing to spend a lot of money to support your career with diminishing financial returns? If you get big, you have to pay others to help you.
If you remain "small" then you might get by but still will pay dues.

How much abuse are you willing to take from crooked bookers, managers, and jealous
performers? I can assure you that they will be there.

This is not an optimal way to live IMHO. But the career chooses you.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM

take each day as it comes.
think, observe , learn , practise.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Stower
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:29 PM

Stringsinger, not sure if you're asking good questions or making accusatory assumptions. Not sure if your questions are general for anyone or aimed at me. If the latter ...

"What is your motivation for wanting to make a living at folk music?" Because it is what gets me out of bed in a morning.

"Is it just to gratify your ego?" No.

"How much regard do you have for the music?" Answered above.

"Is it just to promote your songs so that they will be picked up?" I don't write songs. I play traditional music - largely English, a little Irish, Scottish and French.

"Do you really think that a larger audience will give a damn?" How much larger? They did in the days I used to play festivals and tear about the country while trying to hold down a full time job. I'm more interested that the audience respects the music than their size.

"For a folkie to make a living at it, who are the best models for what you want to do?" Not sure what you mean. Musical models? Behaviour models? Business models? Models of success (define 'success')?

"And the final question is: why would you want to put yourself through this?" Answered above. Friends and audiences have been urging me for years to try and make a living out of this. I have always resisted. I now wonder if I could. I'd like to think it is possible, but have real doubts, which is why I started this thread.

I apologise in advance, Stringsinger, if I have taken your questions the wrong way, but your tone came across as rather accusatory. We have never, as far as I know, met. If we had, you wouldn't have needed to ask. Anyhow, you have your answers.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:08 PM

This thread does make me feel slightly guilty.

I have never aspired to full-time professionalism in music but have thoroughly enjoyed semi-professional status over 40+ years, playing and singing in some wonderful places. Both Tina and I had demanding professional jobs but we still found time for weekend and the occasional midweek gigs and now that we have retired we have been able to extend what we do and practice more. We have several irons in the fire so that beside our singing and playing, we are in a highly regarded folk dance band that gets far more offers of gigs than it can handle and we act as a technical team for popular shows that have taken us to five different countries in the last three years. We manage to keep ourselves pretty busy musically without having to accept the sort of gigs mentioned above that we feel would debase our music.
The guilt comes from conversations from folk music professionals that we meet who confess to us how much they earn in a year - and we know that between us we are earning more than them.
I suppose the guilt is assuaged, somewhat, by the fact that throughout our married lives, we have run weekly folk clubs - never taking a penny out for doing so - and have this provided work for folk musicians on an estimated 1800 occasions, apart from all the tours that we have arranged for singers and musicians.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

yes Vic,you have done a good job,you booked me once , I quite understand that was enough[joke].
Seriously,40 years deserves some appreciation,so , well done and thanks.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:58 PM

One singer whom I admire very much didn't especially try to appeal to "folkie" audiences. Quite knowledgeable about the songs he sang, he got connected with the American School Assemblies program early in his career and spent a lot of time singing at high school assemblies and at colleges and universities as part of their lectures and concerts series. Because the songs he sang had historical roots, AND because he was a very good singer and musician (although often not particularly well liked by folkies for that very reason [ ! ], many of them were not above learning songs from his records and trying to copy his guitar accompaniments), he set about trying to appeal particularly to early music enthusiasts and to general concert-going audiences. He didn't "go commercial," but as I say, hard-core folk music enthusiasts tended to dismiss him and/or bad-mouth him because of his musicianship. Nevertheless, he had a quite successful concert career, and got a lot of people interested in folk music who, otherwise, probably would have dismissed it as just another popular music fad not worth bothering with.

Although the vast percentage of his repertoire consisted of folk songs and ballads, he did not regard himself as a "folk singer."

If one aspires to a professional career singing traditional songs, it might, perhaps, be more productive from several viewpoints to try to appeal to audiences other than those who frequent the folk clubs. Think of it as "outreach."

Just a thought. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM

Watch out for the self-defeating myths. Here are 3:

1.) You can't make a living at folk-singing
2.) You have to sell out to make enough money
3.) Those bast*rd agents, managers, and record companies will cheat you

1.) You can't make a living at folk-singing? You can if you work a lot. You have to be true to your craft. You have to continually develop your music and all the skills required to do the job. That effort will keep your drive to be successful high, and you'll learn how to best "sell" your music to your audience.

2.) You have to sell out to make enough money? Rubbish. It's your job to figure out how to present the music YOU love to your audiences. People come to your stage/pub/concert because they want to enjoy the experience. It is human nature that they will respond well to things that they know and love already. So learn to play those "standards" they like, that you like too - and learn to get them interested in the new songs you love.

3.) Those bast*rd agents, managers, and record companies will cheat you? I've been making all of income from music for about 10 years. I've never met one of those "bast*rds" yet. I'm there are some, but you meet jerks in every walk of life. You make your best judgments about people and situations and act accordingly. Music is no different.

The few agents that I've worked with are sweet hearts. I'd work with them again in a heartbeat. And Thank God for the other performers. At the bottom of my heart, underlying all of the work and effort I put into this way of live, is a deep abiding love for music - songs and singing. And that is also true for all of the music friends I have. Seamus Kennedy (above) is one of the truly kindest folks you'll ever meet and he's always happy to lend a hand to fellow musician. The late, great Rick Fielding (former Mudcatter), likewise went to great pains to assess and assist the musicianship of every musician he met. My friends Ed Miller and Brian McNeill, both very focused on their own work have never-the-less been truly generous to me in my efforts to get started in this business. And there are lots of other stories like this. It is not just the goodness of their hearts - it is the fire of music that burns in their hearts.

Worried about the jealous, unfriendly types in the music world? Forget them. There are plenty of good hearted folks. Find them and stick them - and most importantly; BE one of them. You'll be in a position to pass it on someday.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 07:34 PM

Jed
I am a cynical cove
But it does raise my estimation of the world to read a positive post now and then,as in yours above, so it must give hope to those with the drive and talent to find a career playing and in music generally.
Well done

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST,biff
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 08:38 PM

get clear on who you are and what you want. does the environment determine your outcome or do you shape your life? art and artists will continue to continue and for those who choose to follow this particular path, the way will always be unknown until revealed. van gogh continued to paint while having mental breakdowns. coltrane sewed a cloth bag to put over his saxophone so his practicing would not disturb neighbors. basquiat walked up to warhol and showed him his art. whatever works. your question shows self doubt. do you want it? get positive. easy to say? not for me, mate. it starts with you and not with them. be so good they have to listen to you.

practice
perseverance
study

no one said it comes to you easy

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: autoharper
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:23 AM

This thread has produced a lot of good suggestions. I noticed nobody mentioned that it is quite helpful if you know how to entertain an audience.

-Adam Miller

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:40 AM

Adam is quite right. Earlier on I stayed on track with the business of the business. I assumed a level of ability and ability assumes a lot I guess. Malvina Reynolds was a great songwriter but not a classic voice and not exceptional as a guitarist but she was captivating when she performed. A great voice isn't necessarily a great singer and a great singer isn't necessarily entertaining. Bob Dylan apparently has more going for himself than his exceptional pipes.

Don

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

"I noticed nobody mentioned that it is quite helpful if you know how to entertain an audience."

That's a given. Without that, striving for a career as a professional musician is pointless. However, many singers, in there eagerness for a successful music career, compromise their music, not to mention their integrity, in order to be more "entertaining." Many pop-folk groups of the 1960s are examples of this.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:53 AM

Had to smile at the Malvina Reynolds ,Bob Dylan comment.
There are some great entertainers on the folky type circuit in uk
Mr Garbutt,Flossie and GP are on my personal list. But its just that really, personal. You could be Elvis reborn but its in the ears,heart ,mind, of the listener I reckon.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:10 PM

Learning how to entertain an audience is implicit in my comments above.

When I say "It's your job to figure out how to present the music YOU love to your audience." I mean you must be an entertainer.

We all do this part of the job differently - and some of us are described as entertainers, and others not, but you must interest the audience in the music you want to present.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

Jed - thanks for your kind words.

After 38 years doing this, I've found that what goes around, comes around. So let's all help each other and pay it forward.

Jed's post about the 3 myths is remarkably accurate -and very well written. Words for a folkie to live by.

And the entertainment aspect is extremely important.

If you are not presenting your music in an entertaining fashion for your audience, regardless of how great a virtuoso you are, you may as well stay home and dazzle yourself. It's the audience who is primarily responsible for us 'making a living'. Simple - no audience, no living.

And pretty much all the truly great musicians I admire are/were excellent entertainers.
Victor Borge, Doc Watson, Yo-yo Ma, Jethro Burns, Steve Goodman, Merle Travis, Joe Maphis, Mick Moloney, Paddy Moloney & the Chieftains, Mark O'Connor, Flatt & Scruggs, Frankie Gavin. The list could go on.

Seamus

I once heard this little gem (sorry can't remember the source):
a good performer comes out in front of the audience and says "Here I am!"; a great performer comes out in front of an audience and says "There you are!".

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 04:16 PM

I guess you need to decide whether you want to "Make a living as a folk musician, " or "Make a living as a folk entertainer." To me, music is music, and either you make a living doing it or not. Folk, by it's nature and the audience (or lack thereof) is undoubtedly more difficult to make a living at than some other styles of music.

Then you address whether you wish to entertain or just play. If you are a performer, you are playing a performance,and the large share of performances are to entertain. Some times we seem to look down on entertainers, like the"commercial groups" of the 60's. They had huge followings and still do. They played their brand of music, entertained up a storm, and probably reached more audience members and affected much more change than the obscure folk player that didn't want to entertain, just to spread his philosophy by his music.   I guess when I read the original question, I never once thought that it might be an option to not entertain... makes the $ much more elusive methinks.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 07:01 PM

Stower, I was just trying to inject a little reality in this conversation. I didn't mean anything personal. I think my questions are legitimate and not directed at you.

Accusatory is not the nature of my posts. Reality is.

It doesn't do anyone good to make nice about such an undertaking. It's a rough road
and anyone who takes it must be prepared for a few bumps along the way.

As Adam says if you can entertain, you can almost do anything you want.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: GUEST,yer Hacker
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 07:34 PM

"How can a folkie make a living?"

One answer:

I play me guitar and I play it right well
And ah sings with a luverly voice
Ah draws inspiration from a bottomless well
en ah'm ever bin one of the boys

The punters all hail me when I'm on the mic
when they've quaff-ed a bitter or two
They tell me "y'know, lad, go pro, boy, yer not bad!"
'tis a dream that I wish would come true.

It's all fine and well that ah sing in the pub
that's what the pub owners all say
But they grow hard 'o hearing, quite desperately weary
when ah tell 'em that tha'll have ta pay

"Ye've sung here for years and nae charged me nae once!"
They cry in the name of their pocket.
"Tis just music!" they whine, "for a moment in time"
And that's when ah tell 'em to fock it.

For ah play guitar and ah play it right well
but business is nae my true love
Ah'll play where ah like (and get stood a pint)
and tell greedy bastards to shove

For in all of the years of long history
A player can hardly bear livin'
without a patron who's best worth his natron
bare pockets and art are a given.

Subject: Lyr Add: BLOODY ROTTEN AUDIENCE (Tony Miles)
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 07:45 PM

The problem with making a living from singing folk songs is not to do with the quality and attitude of the singer. It is to do with the quality and attitude of the audiences. Tony Miles has pointed this out at @displaysong.cfm?SongID=714 but his reasoning would be worth repeating here:-

BLOODY ROTTEN AUDIENCE
(Tony Miles)

Well, here's a song I've written specifically for you
Who sit in the audience and talk through all I do
I cannot understand it cause I'm pretty good, you see
So there must be something wrong with you, there's nothing wrong with me

Ch.: You're a bloody rotten audience whilst I am very good
If brains were made of oak and ash then you'd have balsa wood
I'm ethnic and authentic and I'm really full of class
While you're ignorant, you're cultureless, you're philistines
en masse.

I'm an artist and authority on music and what's more
I'm incredible informative on folksong and folklore
I'm a wonderful performer and so you all must be
So bloody thick and stupid not to like the like of me

I'm a folkie and that's obvious, you can tell it by me clothes
And when I sing traditional, I sing it through me nose
And if you insist on talking everytime I sing a song
I'll fix you with 'Bold Robin Hood', that's eighty verses long.

And when I sing contemporary, my heart and soul is pure
I must be bloody brilliant, cause my writing's so obscure
My hero's Leonard Cohen, I dig him perfectly
But I must be so much better, cause no-one here digs me.

But now I'm going to leave you, cause I feel I'm wasting time
Couldn't possibly be wasting yours, so you must be wasting mine
And let me tell you now that I'm not out here for me health
So if you don't come and pull with me, I'll go and pull meself

Ch.: You're a bloody rotten audience whilst I am very good
If brains were made of oak and ash then you'd have balsa wood
I'm ethnic and authentic and I'm really full of class
But underneath it all I'm just a pain in the flipping ass.

Subject: RE: How can a folkie make a living?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 07:53 PM

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