UK guitar luthier

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:11 PM

As I said, your guitar, your money, your choice. No criticism intended, just enjoying a discussion on my favourite topic (guitars), and trying to understand ‘the other guy’s POV’.

Personally, I always play a newly set-up guitar in front of the luthier/tech before I pay and take it home, then any problems can be sorted there and then (had to do that once when I picked a guitar up and the 12th fret action was too low for my liking - fixed there and then and I left a happy bunny).

I guess I’m pretty fortunate in knowing what setup works for me, all four of my acoustics (two Martins, a Lowden, and a McNally) are set up the same…

Nut slots: a hair (0.002” - 0.003”) over first fret height
Neck Relief: 0.006”
12th fret action: 3/32” Low ‘E’, 5/64” High ‘e’

…so they all ‘feel’ the same (apart from neck-profile variances, and I’m able to check and replicate those myself if anything starts to feel ‘off’, and I can give the measurements to a luthier/tech when I have a first setup done on a new guitar - usually eight weeks or so after I get it.

You didn’t mention problems with the nut - what’s going on with it?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:12 PM

Shipping not shopping! Lol

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:27 PM

Yeah, I worked that one out!

BTW, another tech who is highly recommended for setups, refrets, new nuts and saddles, etc. is Kate Phillips (GuitarKes) up near Whitby. Kate is the wife of Steve Phillips who was with Mark Knopfler and Brendan Croker in the Notting Hillbillies. She has a nice little workshop in the garden of their house, and she did a quick job sorting out buzzing on my old Brook. And it’s a very pleasant run over the Humber Bridge up to Whitby (although further for you than it is for me!).

Check out her FB Page - https://www.facebook.com/guitarkes?

I don’t like shipping guitars so I always take them personally - even had a day-trip to Southampton to see Vince Hockey with my old J-40 a few years ago, and two trips to Dave King down near Newbury (he did a B&S re-finish on my D-18 - don’t ask, long story!).

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:30 PM

BWM,

If you have a guitar Plekked, a new nut is the way to go. The machine cuts the nut slots. It's incredibly accurate at 1400th's of a millimetre.

Is it worth the expense? That depends on you but to me it is. I've had setups with Plek and without, and I've always found Plek better.

Bear in mind, though, that a Plek machine is only as good as the operator.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:54 PM

Accuracy is 144 thousandth's of a millimetre. I always get that wrong!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 01:09 PM

One place I WOULD go for a setup (distance no object) is KGB of Birkenhead. I've heard some amazing things about them.

Similarly Brook Guitars who do repairs and setups as well as great guitar builds.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 01:39 PM

Yes, I used to own a Brook Lamorna, and I went down to their workshop in Hittesleigh, Devon, for the first set-up and a look around. Lovely guitars, very nice workshop, and a great pair of guys (three, if you include Simon’s son Jack, who does the inlay work).

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 01:58 PM

BWM,

Did you get that McNally sorted? Last I heard you were wondering if it needed a neck reset.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 03:08 PM

BWM,

As far as criticism goes, never took your comments to be that. If you want me to elaborate on anything I've said in this thread, you go right ahead and ask ;)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 04:22 PM

Yes, I got the McNally sorted out myself - too much relief and saddle too low causing buzzing in the middle of the neck, so I flattened the neck a touch and raised the saddle slightly. Perfect 3/32” x 5/64” action now, with no buzz.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 06:12 PM

Màrtin-wise, 3/32" for the E is about as low as you want to go. You CAN go lower but you'll lose a lot of the "fire".

Many acoustic guitarists I run into have nut slot height and relief as low as possible and raise saddle height.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 25 Aug 25 - 10:18 AM

All booked in at CCGX with accompanying email detailing work needed, contact details etc.

I'll let you know how it's going AND give my honest opinion when I get it back.

Yes, yes, I know but here's the bet:

I bet you that it will come back better than it left and THAT will be money well spent, right? Lol.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 25 - 12:03 PM

"I bet you that it will come back better than it left and THAT will be money well spent, right? Lol."

That's a question only you can answer, and I get a distinct impression that you're someone who is very difficult to please! ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 25 Aug 25 - 02:09 PM

BWM,

You're actually not far out!

When I have work done (to our house, my guitar, whatever), first thing I do is look for bad workmanship, getting quite annoyed if I find any. But I wouldn't call that picky, it's merely wanting what I paid for :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 07:06 AM

Slotting the bridge - yay or nay?

Was thinking about having it done but the guys who are going to do Plek and other stuff, they said no.

So, what's the benefits of having it done? Increased break angle, so more down pressure on the saddle. What else? Does it improve sound IYO?

Cheers
-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 11:16 AM

Slotted bridges are mainly for guitars with, say, a trapeze style tailpiece - where the string fixings don’t necessarily have the same string spacing as the strings passing over the saddle. Consequently, slotting is necessary to keep the string courses in place. I’m not aware of any fixed bridge guitar that comes with a slotted saddle.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 12:30 PM

No, Ray,slotting the bridge...you know, so you can use unslotted bridge pins. Does it improve tone, do you think?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 12:47 PM

Ray - we’re talking slotted bridges here, not slotted saddles.

Major builders such as Martin and Gibson used to slot the pin-holes in the bridge, and use solid (un-slotted) pins. Some high-end modern builders still use that practice - Collings, for instance, and the Martin ‘Authentic’ Series still have slotted bridges and un-slotted pins.

Some time in the mid-‘40s, Martin stopped slotting the pin-holes and started using slotted pins. It’s difficult to find the reason set out anywhere, but it’s generally accepted that, as the company moved to ever-greater production numbers, slotted pins were cheaper than slotting the bridge, and therefore they chose to go with them in the name of economy (and thus more profit).

The benefits of slotted bridges with un-slotted pins include…

1) A more solid contact between the ball-end of the string and the bridgeplate
2) because of 1), Improved tuning stability
3) the tendency of the ball ends to ‘creep’ into the pin-holes is greatly reduced, or even completely removed
4) reduced wear on the bridge-plate/pin holes (because of 1 and 3)
5) improved break-angle when the saddle is low (although this can also be achieved by ramping the top of the hole rather than full slotting)

There may be other advantages, but those are the main ones.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 12:51 PM

Since 2009, I’ve reamed and slotted all of my pin-bridge guitars’ pin-holes and installed solid pins. I do it for the reasons enumerated above.

I have never heard any change in tone resulting from slotting the bridge, although I’ve read anecdotal evidence from others that they heard improvements when they slotted their bridges. I have to say that I’ve never heard a tonal change either from changing pin material, so maybe I have tin ears? ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 01:07 PM

And, regarding peoples’ opinions on ‘slotting - yes or no’, as my son says, “Opinions are like arses - everybody has one”! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 05:18 PM

I SHOULD have said slotted bridge pin holes to be fair.

I can see where Ray was going. Take a banjo bridge, most have an ebony strip along the top. Arguably you could call that a saddle and it's slotted for each string, the slots being little more than string guides.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 05:39 PM

Anyhoo, I now have a date when the courier (APC) will collect my D-18: 2 Sept.

Collection and delivery is all arranged by CCGX, not me.

And I know, I know. But I've had a LOT of guitars shipped by APC. There's never been an issue :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 03:54 AM

Sorry, misunderstood what you were asking - I have more instruments with tailpieces than fixed bridges!

I suspect that you’ll find people with firm opinions on both sides of the slot or not to slot argument but none who can actually provide evidence of which is better or even whether it makes the slightest difference.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 04:50 AM

I follow the advice of some of the top American luthiers - John Arnold, Frank Ford (Frets.com), Howard Klemperer, and others, all of whom strongly recommend slotted bridges over slotted pins. They have plenty of evidence, all being experts on repair and maintenance of vintage instruments, as well as being builders of modern guitars, that slotted bridges with solid unslotted pins are better for bridge-plate preservation, due to their making a more mechanically sound connection between the string, bridge, and bridge-plate.

I think the fact that high-end builders such as Collings, Dana Bourgeois, SCGC, etc. slot the pin-holes and install solid pins speaks for itself.

But, as I said earlier, opinions are like arses… ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 05:16 AM

Howard Klepper - bloody autocorrect!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 05:38 AM

Well I've been talked out of slotting the bridge, at least for now.

I can see where CCGX are coming from, not wanting to do a job that I may decide I don't like.

I'll go with new nut, new saddle, Plek, and think some more about having the bridge slotted.

Thanks lads
-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 08:00 AM

An idea (not mine):

Save 6 ball ends. When restringing, slide a ball down each string so that there's a flat surface to push against the bridge plate.

Never tried this, but what do YOU think? Good idea or BS?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 08:54 AM

It’s helpful when the bridgeplate has been damaged - e.g. by slotted pins allowing ball-ends to ‘creep’ into the pin holes - but not something I’d recommend if the bridge-plate is in decent condition.

I used that technique for a short while about twenty years ago when a Martin I owned at the time had exactly that problem - the cheap ‘n’ nasty soft plastic slotted pins that CFM used had distorted and allowed the ball ends to push them rearwards in the straight-drilled holes, and the ball-ends ‘crept’ into the holes. But, when I learned about bridge reaming and slotting and got advice from a couple of Martin experts on the UMGF, I reamed the pin holes with a 5° reamer to make the pins seat properly down to the collar, and slotted the holes. Once that was done, and I replaced the original pins with Antique Acoustics Galalith (a very hard plastic made from milk) unslotted pins, there were no further problems.

I don’t like anything that can interfere with the transmission of string-vibrations to the guitar’s soundboard (which is why I won’t have under-saddle pickups in my guitars, and use K&K under-soundboard pickups instead) and, to my way of thinking, an important part of the transmission chain is the contact between the ball-end and bridgeplate. Putting a second ball on the string is adding a barrier, however slight, to that transmission chain.

That’s my take on it anyway - I can’t offer any ‘proof’, it’s just ‘logical’ to my mind. Others may differ and that’s fine by me - ‘opinions are like arses’, etc. etc. ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 09:08 AM

Santa Cruz? From what I can remember (my three Santa Cruz guitars are several hundred miles away) they use slotted pins but I’ll check when I get home in a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 03:15 PM

Yes, I’ve a feeling you might be right there, Ray. I seem to recall seeing that on an AGF thread not long ago - I was very surprised, as were a number of others, I expected that, like Collings, SCGC would have a more traditional approach. Apologies if I got it wrong.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 30 Aug 25 - 11:48 AM

BWM,

Looking at your setup measurements above, how would you describe your playing style?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 25 - 05:00 PM

I fingerpick using plastic thumb-picks and Propik ‘Fingertone’ nickel fingerpicks, and strum using BC or JD Nylon flatpicks. I’d say for both styles I’m a medium-hitter.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 08:46 AM

^^^ interesting.

I'd call myself a heavy strummer, happy with neck relief at 0.010" and 12th fret action E 7/64, e 6/64.



12th fret action affects tone (at least to MY ear), making it brighter the lower you go. Anyone else noticed this or is my imagination?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 10:42 AM

Raising the height of a saddle usually increases volume and vice versa. As far as saddle heights go, I’m used to so many actions, neck widths and different instruments that I’ve no idea what any of them are - I just get on and play the things!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 11:25 AM

Actually, I put 12rg fret action but meant neck relief. I should take more water with it!

The more I straighten a guitar neck, the brighter the tone seems to get.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 11:31 AM

Not to self:

erm...12TH dummie!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 11:34 AM

NotE

Oh I give up lol

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 02:19 PM

Tuesday my D-18 will be heading down the A1 to that London.

I'm anticipating a state-of-the-art setup "Neck straight as an arrow, plays like butter, rings for days"!

Chose to have it set up with D'Addario EJ17 'cos, as I've said before, I get no extra life from coated strings and so the extra cost of 'em is (for me) money wasted.

Gone for a heavy strummer setup: 0.003" above 1st fret, 0.010" neck relief and 7/64 and 6/64 at the 12th.

When it returns, I'll write an honest review including total cost.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 03:49 PM

You must have very strong hands indeed, Fred, that action would be unplayable for me. Definitely a hard-hitter’s action!

I await your report back here with high anticipation!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 05:26 PM

BWM,

Honestly, I'm confident CCGX will do a great job.

There, I've stuck my neck out! ;)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 07:50 AM

My Martin D-18 was collected this morning.

I expect it to be gone 3-4 weeks as CCGX always has a heavy workload. I have no other guitar but I do have a 5-string open-back banjo which is currently totally disassembled on my workbench.

I should be playing it but the tinkerer in me must mess :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 10:57 AM

Only one guitar! Apart from all the others, I even had two D18s for a time until I decided to trade one of them in. Perhaps it’s time to start looking for a backup?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 11:56 AM

Well I WOULD think about another guitar, Ray, but I've got a wife and 2 daughters, that's 3 dependants...



4 if you count the dog!



-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 03:01 PM

All a matter of priorities, Fred. My wife is self sufficient, I never wanted kids and I can’t stand dogs. Just the house, a motorhome and a couple of dozen instruments to support.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 05:43 AM

Well, my D-18 must be nearing its destination. In expecting a call from CCGX today to discuss Plek date....

Like I said, they're always battling with a heavy workload and things don't always go as planned.

But if you can put up with that, what you'll get is great workmanship, at least it's always been that way for me.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 10:06 AM

My D-18 has safely arrived, so the peanuts did their job!

I've borrowed a Strat for tonight's gig - Little Red Rooster gear!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 12:00 PM

Once did a gig with the late Peter Sarstedt - he didn’t even own a guitar; he went out and hired a Martin 12 String.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 12:29 PM

Nottingham City Guitars would let you take home one of their guitars if yours was to stay there needing work. Don't know if that's still the case.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 04:12 PM

”Once did a gig with the late Peter Sarstedt”

I did a gig supporting his brother, Richard (a.k.a. Eden Kane), at the time he had ‘Boys Cry’ in the charts. He was a very nice guy, a great performer, and sickeningly good-looking. He was also very kind - my band’s gear was pretty clapped-out and, when we did our sound-check, he suggested we used his PA and his band’s amps and drum-kit. That must have been the best we ever sounded!

His band was ‘The Downbeats’ - I seem to recall they were Nottingham-based.

Eden Kane is in his 80s now, still doing live gigs, often with Marty Wilde and The Wilde-cats. And he’s still sickeningly good-looking! :-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 04:13 PM

As-a-aand…100! ;-)