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PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC!
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PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:19 PM Peter, your point is well taken. But a distinction must be drawn between the belief systems of a religion, and the practices of it's church. The Christian belief is based upon the life and teachings of Christ, and I find little in these teachings that authorize an anti-woman bias. In fact, as you yourself have said, women played a significant role in most of the major events of Christ's life. The patriarchal nature of the church built upon these teachings has little to do with belief, and everything to do with tradition and power. I don't agree that the figure of Mary is a token icon. Her significance is more far-reaching. Where Christ has often been portrayed as the gentle redeemer in Christian Tradition, he is also portrayed as the Harrower of Hell, and as Son in the Holy Trinity. Mary's representation is much more approachable . She is the human face of Christianity. In representations, she is also the life-giver, and the bearer of sorrows, and carries much of the power and strength of the Earth Mother. My belief is that Mary may have become a popular figure in the medieval church not because the church fathers needed a token female figure, but because there was an easy transfer of devotion from adherents of earlier pagan, probably female, deities to her. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jon Freeman Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:27 PM IMO freedom of speach and knowingly being offensive are very different matters and as an example, while I would totally disagree with the use of the word nigger, I think that when PC has reached the level where you should say chalk-board rather than blackboard (if the thing was white and chalk was black - I wouldn't feel offended if it was called a white board) the whole situation has got ridiculous. I am more concerend about labeling of people in sosciety than the words used. In 1987, I was "diagnosed" shizophrenic - I dared to mention hearing a voice when I visited my doctor and spent a week in a mental hospital. I didn't take the tablets and still do not as I believe that the diagnosis was wrong and contary to the psychiatrist belief I am coping very well. I worked through this with the company who employed me (and although it may be hard to believe with some of my grammer these days) throsh all this, I wrote documentation that helped to get my company BS5750 approval (I was the only author in my department) and was good at my job. I left partly to follow a couple of musical interests and partly over a difference of opinion over workloads - I can prove this: after I left, my job was split between 2 people (and argueably 2.5) - a supposedly sz person was doing more than they deemed was reaonable for a "normal" person. The trouble came when I wanted to go back into my previous career. It makes no difference whether the term "mentally ill", "schizophrenic" or even "madman" is used, the fact is that that label remains on my record and I can not use the company that I did well with for a reference because of it. 2 weeks and the ensuing label managed to destroy my working life. Jon |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: paddymac Date: 29 Sep 99 - 04:30 PM Well, I think Joe wins on points. Meanwhile, think I'll hav a pint and wait for the next wild thread to start. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jack (Who is called Jack) Date: 29 Sep 99 - 04:48 PM In order to believe in freedom and democracy you have to be willing to accept defeat for while. For what you get with democracy isn't the right to win, but the right to stay in the game even when you lose. In practical terms, that means were only allowed to battle against (for example) the KKK. We aren't allowed to muzzle or outlaw them. They always get to come back tommorow and have another go at us. Democracy rejects ultimate victory no matter how worthwhile the cause. This is the great sacrifice democracy demands. Whenever you hear about proposed restraints on politically provocative speech its usually rootied in an unwillingness by the proposer to make that sacrifice. The fantasy is that they can have democracy and simultaneously deny the offending party their chance to win. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Date: 30 Sep 99 - 12:45 AM Very well said, I agree. Mary herslef acknowledged her need of a Saviour, for she said: My soul doth magnify the Lord, Note particularly Mary's words, "my Savior." No one other than a sinner needs a Saviour, for no punishment or evil in any form can be inflicted upon a sinless person. Roman Catholics will have to take Mary's word or accuse "Our Lady" of lying. For in those words she confessed that she was a sinner in need of a Saviour. That should settle once and for all whether or not a Christian should pray to her. Mary was an admirable character, to be sure. But she was not sinless, and she was only human. It was, therefore, necessary for her to be born again of the spirit and to participate in the redemptiion provided by her Son. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Rick Fielding Date: 30 Sep 99 - 01:35 AM Gil, you're one heck of a contradiction. Sorry 'bout the chords. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: GeorgeH Date: 30 Sep 99 - 10:30 AM Jo. Love the red flashy bit. However there's no fault in my logic. You said that you would only legislate against speech which causes actual harm. My opinion (clearly one you don't share) is that the ultimate consequence of that policy would be to leave the victims of hate campaigns without any protection. OK, I didn't go to great lengths to express that opinion in the most carefully couched and unambiguous of terms. At the risk of getting into still deeper water, I'd suggest that both freedom of speech and the right of individuals to a free, untroubled existence (ok, dream on on this last point) are absolute rights. By which I mean they can't be curtailed. Until you reach the point where they are incompatible with each other - which is exactly what we are talking about here. And IMO at that point it's the free speech which has to yield. At least this approach (until someone points out further flaws in it) doesn't allow government to curtail my freedom of speech for its own ends. Regards G. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: GeorgeH Date: 30 Sep 99 - 10:39 AM [Now entering pedantry mode] LonesomeEJ; did you really say "the suppression of speech BY such diverse individuals as Lenny Bruce, Pete Seeger . . ". Hey, you've just swapped which side those guys are on! [End of pedantry] Jack (wicj): good point, well made. Still believe the protection of individuals is even more fundamental than the right to free speech, though. G. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: MMario Date: 30 Sep 99 - 11:15 AM the blank person above posted: "for no punishment or evil in any form can be inflicted upon a sinless person. " --- makes me wonder. Scourging, public humiliation and death on a cross are not "punishment or evil"? and I can think of a great many evils that have been done to infants, who haven't had TIME to sin. But THAT discussion belongs on another forum. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Larry B. Date: 30 Sep 99 - 12:00 PM George- There are no absolute rights; rights are given (as opposed to priveleges, which are earned), and are only valid while the giver remains in power. As to the right of freedom of speech giving way to the right to a free and untroubled existence if they conflict with each other--who determines when they conflict? That person or entity (and yes, it would probably be the government) would be able to curtail your freedom of speech for his, her, or its own ends. LB |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: GeorgeH Date: 30 Sep 99 - 01:29 PM Larry B: I disagree, utterly. I believe the concept of inherent and inalienable rights is of crucial importance; it allows us to emphasise the denial of rights rather than their "gift". Also there seems a strange imbalance in your insistence that rights are given (by whom??) and then (seemingly) wishing to deny the possibility of anyone determining which of two conflicting rights should have precedence. Actually, I disagree that privileges are necessarily earned, too - but I guess you're not familiar with our House of Lords . . . G. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Larry B. Date: 30 Sep 99 - 02:58 PM According to Webser's New Collegiate Dictionary, a right is "something to which one has a just claim...the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled...something that one may properly claim as due...." Claims and entitlements are determined by a system of laws (i.e. the government) and are valid only while that government is in power. Certain rights were held to be inalienable by a group of rebels a couple of centuries ago in this country, and as long as the government they set up remains in power, those rights are inalienable. In your post, you acknowledged that two rights could come into conflict. If I decide that a certain type of speech offends me, my complaint will only have weight if it is enforced by the government. By being able to decide what constitutes an infringement to my free and untroubled existence, the government is given the powert to limit speech. LB |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 30 Sep 99 - 05:10 PM George, you are right. The subject of the phrase was ambiguous. But I'll bet you followed my meaning. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Oct 99 - 01:50 AM Well, George, I think you're reading stuff into my words. The problem with restricting speech that causes fear is proving how harm was done, and writing legislation that will outlaw harmful speech while protecting the freedom of those who do no harm. You will note that my official comment on speech that causes fear and emotional harm is "I dunno." That does not mean I believe this type of speech should be protected or allowed - it means I don't know how to deal with it, and I'm open to ideas. I do think it's an issue we need to deal with very carefully. But heck, you guys are putting a nasty spin onto what I said and making me into some kind of libertarian monster or something.... Although many of my fans and supporters have urged me to do so, I am NOT running for President this year, or any time soon. Therefore, you guys aren't supposed to be allowed to put a negative spin on my words like that. I may accept a draft, however.... Is the pay any good? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 01 Oct 99 - 02:12 AM Well, Joe, they just doubled it to 400,000. Although it would mean a return to a role as Civil Servant, you know. If you're serious, I have a great campaign slogan for you: " Honor! and Offer!" |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Oct 99 - 02:46 AM LEJ, can I "offer" you a job - in my opponents' campaigns??? You think they'd let me hang out at the 'Cat if I were president? Four hundred grand a year sounds pretty good, but since I'm a federal retiree, I'd be a "reemployed annuitant," and I'd have to work for peanuts. No, thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: GeorgeH Date: 01 Oct 99 - 06:45 AM Lary B: Thanks for the Websters quote; however either your or my interpretation of it is equally valid, and I stick with mine. In my view, your constitution, and the universal declaration, RECOGNISE those rights which I believe are inherent; they don't create them. But at the end of the day this argument is academic. And sorry, Joe, no nasty spin was intended; I apologise if it seemed otherwise. I'm quite sure when it comes down to specific examples of what's right and wrong, where things have a clear effect on people we'd all agree what was right and proper (probably regardless of what the law had to say on the point!). But if only you WERE running and I was eligible to vote then the draft would most certainly be in the post! So, to repeat, my apologies to ANYONE I may have offended - that wasn't my intention. G. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Oct 99 - 03:58 PM It is something we should be careful of, George. We all have a temptation to demonize our opponents when it's to our advantage. If we take the time to properly nuance an argument, we often lose the readers' interest, so we tend to take shortcuts and steamroll over our opponents. Another thing is that it takes courage to respect an opponent's point of view, because your so-called friends may call you a traitor. U.S. Republicans demonize the other side when they refer to Democrats being "soft on crime" or "tax and spend" liberals. Democrats/liberals have similar tactics, like accusing people of being sexist or racist for a simple slip of the tongue. Honorable people usually aren't in favor of crime, and there's really nothing wrong with making sure you collect enough money to pay the bills. And while we all come from a culture that is racist in may ways, most of us try our best not to be bigots and only occasionally slip and say something we shouldn't. As for me, I consider myself to be a Democratic Socialist, in agreement with most positions taken by people who call themselves liberals. I prefer to think for myself, and not espouse any particular ideology. Within the Catholic Church, I consider myself part of the "loyal opposition." That means I get flak from all sides. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Peter T. Date: 01 Oct 99 - 04:52 PM Joe, have you ever slept with Julie Christie? That is my current criterion for Presidential, er, timber. Anyone who has slept with Julie Christie has been closer to divine truth that I have, and who knows, Warren might have learned something..... (naaaaaah. Joe Offer for President). yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Jeri Date: 01 Oct 99 - 05:46 PM |
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Subject: RE: PC is NOT a dirty word!Proud to be PC! From: Rick Fielding Date: 01 Oct 99 - 07:07 PM Peter, how bout if someone has slept with Christie of Oahu? |
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