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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM I suspect most contributers to this thread will disagree with you, but if that's what you think, then fair enough. It does not alter the fact that you have made a number of controversial assertions without adequate supporting evidence and what is being asked for is that you provide that supporting evidence. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:08 PM I am glad you find them controversial. What supporting evidence do you wish to have? My generalizations seem to make perfect sense. Lower costs- better access smaller venues - better experience cheaper beer- more can drink performance with teaching is better than without anyone who knows a tune and can play it is good-= more can play when more play there is more demand for professionals to play at events if no one can play or knows the tradition they are less likely to call a pro.... sound systems are a recent intrusion into the folk world- fact didnt need them then and still don't Songs are preserved in several ways we are lagging behind in one of the that is keepin songs in the mind and as part of the lifeway. Entertainment does not save songs it makes people happy for a short while. Why can't everyone volunteer? Some people do it? Why exployt them. When all volunteer the event is more accessible why not? (see barn raising, covered dish dinners, self help) I could go on. I guess you should tell me why these things wont work. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM "I guess you should tell me why these things wont work. " Okay. "What supporting evidence do you wish to have? " Names. You keep talking about these elitist, jet-setting, professional folk singers who collect their egregiously huge checks, then, ignoring their fans, go and sit by the swimming pool in some luxurious hotel, where they "Basque" in the sun and drink $15.00 Cuba Libres. Who are these people. Name some names. Inquiring minds would like to know. "My generalizations seem to make perfect sense. " Then you are the Lone Ranger. They obviously make "perfect sense" to no one but you. "Lower costs- better access" Quite possibly true in general, but even free events usually draw only so many people. "smaller venues - better experience" Then why do you want free festivals composed of thousands of people? You contradict yourself. "cheaper beer- more can drink" Definitely not a positive!! If there are a lot of people such as you in attendance sitting there lushing it up, with all the typical behavior that goes with a beer-bust, this would be a real turn-off to many people who would otherwise attend, but don't like being surrounded by a bunch of boisterous lager louts, and many singers draw the line at singing for drunken audiences. I, for one, am not opposed to drinking in moderation, but I really prefer to have my audiences sober enough to understand and appreciate what I am doing, which includes being informative along with being entertaining. "performance with teaching is better than without" Provided it is done subtly, without making it obvious that you're "educating" your audiences. Lots of people just don't like that and it will drive them away. "anyone who knows a tune and can play it is good-= more can play" This depends on the nature of the event. There are lots of gatherings such as the "hoots" I have described elsewhere and such things as song circles. Songs like work songs and sea chanteys work well when sung by groups of people, but when I'm listening to someone sing a ballad (a story song), I much prefer to hear it sung by one person as ballads are intended to be sung, than to listen to a whole chorus of singers, especially if half of them at bleary-eyed drunk! And not just ballads. There are a lot of songs that are intended by their very nature to be sung solo. "when more play there is more demand for professionals to play at events if no one can play or knows the tradition they are less likely to call a pro.... " Debatable. Most audiences are made up of people who don't play—or if they play, they don't necessarily play folk music—nor do they want to sing along. These are the people who prefer to listen to a professional: someone who has dedicated themselves to learning, practicing, and performing, not someone who sings merely as a sideline or hobby. "sound systems are a recent intrusion into the folk world- fact didnt need them then and still don't" Debatable. I have sung in coffeehouses and at house concerts and other small venues where a sound system was not necessary. I have also sung in an amphitheater where there were some 6,000 people assembled, and none of the singers would have been heard without the sound system. I've sung in large auditoriums with excellent acoustics where a sound system was not necessary. And I've also sung in venues with lousy acoustics where a sound system was absolutely necessary. Once again, it depends on the nature of the venue. "Songs are preserved in several ways we are lagging behind in one of the that is keepin songs in the mind and as part of the lifeway. " This sentence doesn't make sense. You must have left out a crucial word or two. And as far as "lifeway" is concerned, folk music is not a part of most peoples' "lifeway" and never was. Even in times past. This rural, pastoral yesteryear that you seem to be imagining never really existed to any extent. Folk music was a means whereby people entertained themselves. When media such as radio came along, it slid into obscurity and it will remain a specialization of a small percentage of people, and no amount of hard-charging promotion will change that. The songs ARE being preserved in books, on recordings, and in the memories of those who are interested enough in this particular genre of music to perform it and keep it alive—and, by their performances, interest a few members of their audiences in learning songs and performing them as well. You are not going to get the whole world all standing in a circle, holding hands, and singing "Kumbaya." It was tried back in the 1960s and, save for temporarily, with a very small percentage of people, it just didn't really catch on. "Entertainment does not save songs it makes people happy for a short while. " It DOES save songs, at least in the minds of the performers who sing them—and in the minds of those who are inspired to do likewise, as I was inspired by Walt Robertson back in the early 1950s—and in the number of people who came to me after one of my performances and asked if I teach. And I am not the only performer who gets asked this question. And who does teach. And making people happy for a short while. You think this is a BAD thing? "Why can't everyone volunteer? Some people do it? Why exployt them. When all volunteer the event is more accessible why not? (see barn raising, covered dish dinners, self help) " Because not "everyone" has the time. And not "everyone" is interested. Those who do volunteer, are NOT being "exploited." If they felt like they were, they could easily "UN-volunteer." And there is already a lot of volunteering going on. As I have said several times before, the massive Northwest Folklife Festivals are free to the public, and the whole thing is run by volunteers—including the singers. So what's your problem, Conrad? "I could go on. " I'm sure you could. And, of course, will. (For God knows how many posts yet, saying the whole blasted heap of nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over. . . .) ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:36 AM Don Old chap. Just give up. Leave it. Conrad will never listen. Probably pissed by now anyway. Good luck with your recording project BTW. Looking forward to hearing it one day! Just leave Conrad to follow his "Lifeway" in the way that he chooses...(What is a Lifeway anyway?) I'm lucky enough to be able to ever meet him in my "Lifeway", unless he visits England. God forbid! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM Conrad, I am a singer and I play at least 3 instruments fairly well, and a few more to at least passable standard. While it's not my primary source of income, I do get paid for playing - since April I've done 20 gigs, and could have done more. I'm not saying this to show off but to show that I am quite capable of making music for myself. Nevertheless I still want to listen to professional musicians - mainly for enjoyment, and also to learn from them. I'm also prepared to pay to do so, because I feel I get value for money. Professionals don't become unnecessary just because people can make their own music. Large venues present music to more people, which appears to be your underlying aim, so why are you so opposed? Here's an example of why large venues can be better: Let's suppose that a festival organiser with a sense of humour has booked Conrad Bladey to perform. Through Mudcat, Conrad's fame has spread worldwide, and 1000 people turn up, all wanting to hear him tootle his whistle and see the amazing Horn Hat. At a festival run according to The Concept, only about 30 of those would be able to see him, leaving 970 of them disappointed. Is that a good folk experience for them? Will they have been educated? No. Or perhaps he could do a succession of performances. Unfortunately, he'd have to do over 30 of them to cover all the people who want to see him. Do you really think that's possible? Or that people will hang around for 30 hours waiting for their chance? Again, is that a good experience? I don't think so. Alternatively, he could go on a stage with a PA and perform once to 1000 people. They all receive a folk experience and get educated. No one is saying that big venues are better than small ones in all circumstances - quite the opposite. However they are both part of a diverse folk scene which gives people a choice of how they enjoy their music and to what extent they wish to participate. I fail to understand how an impoverished folk scene offering only one choice would benefit music in any way. Fortunately we don't have to worry about this since no one apart form him believes Conrad's 'Concept' has any merit whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:37 AM As for names this discussion does not need them- just look at the tours of those who claim to be folk musicians. when musicians tour rather than keep the music local there are costs and those costs are passed along to the consumer therefore they are barriers. trick for performers is to build their local market- remove local barriers and they wont have to travel. It all goes together build direct involvement teach and even free events will grow-but only if people feel welcome. Tone down the political polarities reduce costs, accept less than pro performance I never advocated a beer bust however, I want to get rid of the feeling that those who have more than one or two arent welcome. If a person behave themselves no one should frown upon them or keep them from drinking by high prices designed for that purpose. Some people are shy and enjoy things much more after drinking. Quality= there is a spectrum of adequate. We need to be sure that all on that scale have access are considered to have value are included. I see too much emphasis on the elevation of the super pro. The limited funding needs to be better distributed. Folk music unlike all other genres should not worship the super star. instead focus on the music and the intimate small setting cultural reality. Something you live and dont buy or rent. amplification- dont need it research daniel o connell and his mass gatherings, tell your audience to shut up, make your audiences smaller just play a few more times. I tell stories- I can easily tell for 4 hours without much break. i would much rather tell to a great audience of 20 five times rather than a remote audience of 100. The difference of experience is overwhelming same with music. There is a significant body of evidence documenting folk music as part of the lifeway. Sorry. songs of occupation for example. Study the Irish tradition. Study pub history pre 1945 when ordinary individuals came into pubs to play study 16th century england when all gentlemen were expected to play and instruments were available for them in pubs...dancing at the cross roads.....I could go on and on. This sort of music as lifeway rather than profession I observed in the streets of newcastle as well as at weddings in NJ in the 70s. No virtue in thinking small don yes we can expand the circle! It is much smaller than it can be. Just relax and help it expand. Folk music is supported by several legs all are worthy each needs to be as strong as the other. Recorded and archived music is only one. Performance only one, music as lifeway is one and that is the weak link. Each leg can fail and we have to rely on the others. do you know what happened to the Library of alexandria? why do you insist that preservation of songs in the minds of a very few professionals is significant. Surely preservation is best when it extends to everyone. You just dont want the competition. If everyone had the songs what would you do- you wouldn't be special would you and people would notice when you missed a line. Standards would be higher pete seegers success was in selling the genre to people who knew nothing about it and did not know they might like it. you want us to not sell the music you believe people arent reachable you seem to want to keep it contained. bushel firmly over candle don yes there are exceptions but they are rare. We need to push for 100% everyone can volunteer at most one day a year or so. Easy a public service like jury duty it should be ensured by law. The important thing about all volunteer free festivals- THEY WORK It is hard to argue that there is anything more accessible and positive and good for the music. whats holding us back- simple- even though as many claim there is no money in it- people still have their minds on the money and not on the music. Why else would they keep maintaining the expense? Howard- there is some value in huge concerts it is however limited folk music works best in smaller groups- this is not disputed. Simply have the performer stay for the day. Perform to small groups 2-30 several times. I have done this. each year I tell Irish stories a halloween to 500 girl scouts 30 or so at a time. The experience is wildly wonderful. The learning is awesome. And all you need to do is work. Clearly big audiences are in existence to increase profits and minimize effort. No excuses for this please it is not good. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM Quality= there is a spectrum of adequate (my emphasis) I think that says it all. Conrad, I will say this for the last time. Yes, volunteer festivals work. Yes, small scale festivals work. Yes, large scale festivals work. They all work at different levels and provide different things, often to different audiences. That is how folk music expands. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:01 AM "pete seegers success was in selling the genre to people who knew nothing about it and did not know they might like it" We've seen your opinion of Pete Seeger. Are you now praising him? I have yet to hear a story from you. And yes, this discussion DOES need the names of those touring jet-set folk singers. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: frogprince Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM If anyone can name a "jet setter" folk performer, I can match each name with a whole fistful of names of those who tour, but do so by spending many hours behind the wheel of inexpensive cars with astronomical readings on the odometers. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:50 PM they dont all work as well and more is invested in the many large ones.We need to reverse this with freed events dominating and big and expensive ones being hard to find easy just getting the right priorities folk music is expanding very very slowly and needs help Bettymh seeger did many good things one of them was helping to revive the music and make it a fad. But because it was a marketing fad the expansion did not last and shrunk back Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 08 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM "they dont all work as well and more is invested in the many large ones.We need to reverse this with freed events dominating and big and expensive ones being hard to find easy just getting the right priorities" Please - this is an English-language forum. Can you translate this into English for me or explain what "they" are? We're waiting for NAMES. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM Large festivals expensive festivals keep more people out than they let in and large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone! I will not settle for separate but equal I will hold out for what is best and wonder why people just dont do it. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM I said it a while ago. This is like a car crash. You can't take your eyes off it. Sorry...Gotta go...Turn the heating on in my Jacuzzi, will you? More Pimms please butler... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM "large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!" Unlike you, I can only speak for myself. I went to the Philadelphia Folk Festival once. I don't know about "folk experience,' but we learned that a) Cathy Fink will listen closely to advice given by an 8-year-old child, b) boomerangs are fun, c) Pennsylvania has lots of vultures, and d) young drunks can really, really, really be loud and mess up portapotties. We heard some great music (although my kids slept through half the evening concert). We had a good time. We never went back, mostly because of the drunks. Would any of that be a "folk experience?" It's true that my children did learn how NOT to behave when they started drinking, a useful lesson from the folk at the festival. Is the Old Songs Festival large? Or expensive (3 days with camping, $105 each, my kids are older now)? Many workshops and small showcases. Our lessons tend to be more musical and less random. And if there are drunks, they are quieter and cleaner. They use a lot of volunteers. I just hope they can afford to continue. We have a wonderful time at Old Songs, but I really don't know what a "positive folk experience" means. So....who are those jet-set touring folkies? We want NAMES! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM No excuse for drunk and disorderly. But also no excuse for telling someone to stop drinking either. Cathy fink is great Do you sing with your kids? at home? when not being paid to do so? A folk experience. Sitting in an audience five miles from the performer paying them lots of money to be there and for the infrastructure is not. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:58 PM Cathy Fink helped to establish a union for independent folk musicians. I agreee. She's great. My kids are grown, and I must report that we're all better storytellers than singers. We share music a lot, though. I give them CDs (John McCutcheon, Son House, Bil Lepp recently). They give me CDs (Gogol Bordello, the Wiyos, William Elliot Whitmore recently). A folk experience. And we go to festivals and occasional concerts together. For us, also a folk experience. Since we don't have lots of money, we don't pay lots. We don't associate drinking with music or stories, so we save that money. Without an infrastructure in New England, we'd be freezing our butts off 8 months of the year. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM "Some people are shy and enjoy things much more after drinking." Then they have a problem and should seek counseling. Taking their problem to a folk music venue will not help them and may very well spoil the experience for other people, alienating them from going to any further folk music events. "why do you insist that preservation of songs in the minds of a very few professionals is significant. Surely preservation is best when it extends to everyone. You just dont want the competition. If everyone had the songs what would you do- you wouldn't be special would you and people would notice when you missed a line. Standards would be higher" I don't insist on it, Conrad. The simple fact is that not everyone wants to memorize a bunch of folk songs. I don't decide what people want. They do. All I can do is expose them to the songs and they make up their own minds. And even though many people, amateur or professional, sing the same songs, folk songs and ballads are such that not everyone sings the same version. And if they do, not everyone sings it exactly the same way. What you are advocating is that if two or more people sing the same version of the same song, one or more of them is redundant. That's hardly a viable argument in favor of increasing the number of people who sing folk songs. Why is it that many people will go to hear the same violin concerto played by Itzaak Perlman, then Pinkas Zuckerman, then Gustaf Stern, then Hilary Hawn? Why do people buy CDs on which many singers sing the very same songs. Why would a person go to see a performance of La Bohème if he or she has seen the opera a few years before? Because among different performers, even though they are playing and singing the same notes and the same words, each one does it colored by his or her own temperament, personality, and interpretation of the work. And this is even more evident among singers of folk songs. Not every singer sings the same version of a particular ballad. And if they do, each one sings it slightly differently, in his or her own uniquely individual way. And as to competition, I don't view other professional singers as "competition," I view them as colleagues. Although it can always happen, I rarely blank out on a line, forget a verse, or sing a wrong word. In a full concert, I will usually sing about thirty songs or so. I properly prepare, like any professional musician, by practicing and singing the songs over and over until I'm absolutely sure of them. In a coffeehouse, I may sing four or five sets of about nine or ten songs each. Same with those. Richard Dyer-Bennet had a repertoire in excess of 700 songs and ballads. Early on, I asked him how he manages to keep that many songs in his memory. He said that he practices them. All! And unlike many performers, on a concert tour, he rarely sings the same program each time. He rotates the songs, so he keeps them fresh. I try to do the same thing. And when I am not lined up to perform somewhere in the near future, I sing several songs a day, making a point of going through my whole list over period of time. To keep the songs fresh in my memory And if one should goof a line or a few words in a song, those who know and sing the songs have probably done the same thing themselves and understand that that happens now and then. More often than not, the rest of the audience doesn't even notice it. I once saw Andrès Segovia blow a passage during a concert, then quickly cover it. I noticed it, as did a couple of classic-guitar playing friends, but it slid right by most of the audience who didn't notice it at all. And we who did notice it know that such things happen, and we wound up admiring Segovia's ability to cover the goof so well and go right on with the rest of the piece. You don't really know a helluva lot about performing for audiences, do you, Conrad? OH, HELL! I KEEP FORGETTING!! Proverbs 14:7. (yawn) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM "What you are advocating is that if two or more people sing the same version of the same song, one or more of them is redundant. " Many years ago I came on a piece that 'rationalized' the symphony orchestra, along the same lines - reducing the number of violins, etc anybody got a copy of it please? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: frogprince Date: 08 Oct 10 - 09:02 PM "No excuse for drunk and disorderly. But also no excuse for telling someone to stop drinking either." So, what does that actually mean in practice? Does it mean that no one has a right to try to stop a drunk and disorderly person from disrupting a musical event? Or does it mean that someone tried to rein in your behaviour at a musical event, and that you won't accept the fact that you were drunk and disorderly? Did someone try to curb your drinking at an event? If so, have you ever seen them try to curb anyone else who was drinking, but plainly sober? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 09 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM It means that a general discouragement of drink is inappropriate |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:23 PM Conrad, you said in another thread that you were Lutheran. Do you drink in church? Or do you pour down a couple of pints before you go to church? Do you stick around for the usual coffee hour after the service (Scandinavian Lutherans tend to regard the coffee hour as one of the Sacrements), or do you rush home and rummage in the refridgerator for a couple of quick beers before the DTs set in? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM Lemme see, now. . . . Last Saturday, Bob (Deckman) and Judy Nelson came to our apartment for lunch. After lunch, we sat around talking and swapping a few songs. Bob broke out his Zoom H2 digital recorder and we tried recording a few things. (By the way, Conrad, Bob is an old friend whom I have known for 57 years now. Bob is a professional singer of folk songs [who is currently teaching classes in which he talks and sings, relating American history with various folk songs; so he IS broadening awareness and interest in folk music*]. Bob and I have been singing, both independently and together since 1953, and we'd both been singing for a couple of years before we met. In terms of our professional singing, we are not competitors. As I have said above, we are colleagues.) During the course of the afternoon, Bob and I had one beer each. I believe Judy may have had one also, but I don't recall. My wife, Barbara, didn't. If she ever drinks at all, it will be an occasional sip or two of wine. She feels the effects of alcohol almost immediately, and she doesn't like the feeling. Before last week, the last time I had a beer was—I'm not really sure. A couple of months ago as I recall. Wipe the foam off your mustache, Conrad. Don Firth *You say we need to broaden interest in folk music. Okay, what are YOU doing, Conrad? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:53 PM I don't know anyone over here that has any kind of downer on beer with their folk. In fact we get explicit 'folk and ale' mini fests. But the other side of the UK scene is that folkies are often into real ale and actually believe in supporting real-ale pubs as these in their turn support traditional industry and local community. So it works together: amenable landlords host folk sessions, they get in real-ale from small breweries, folkies drink their beer. Result - everyone's happy! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM Well don we do have communion but only every other sunday. I occasionally have a beer or two for lunch on Sunday maybe once a week I might have more than two in a twenty four hour period. My beer consumption has nothing to do with this topic! The problem is that certain venues and individuals activly discourage beer drinking. Absinance is generally a part of their alternative lifestyle, liberal politics, often vegetarian paradiagm and it turns people off. A barrier. Let adults choose. If its legal it is their business. Sort of like the athletic english country dance I went to a few years back. They had transformed the cultural event into a gym work out session- no they did not advertize it as such but these individuals clearly thought of dance as simply a work out. Of course no beer and only nice healthy foods...extreme paradigms scare people away. You can drink as little beer as you wish. But if you dont enjoy the alcohol, and probably dont feel it after just one try non alcoholic beer. No need pay for something you really don't need. I am in favor of individuals determining what they drink and the rest of the world leaving them alone. Moderation is also culturally determined. In some cultures- germany, Ireland,moderation is set higher than in most parts of the usa. I grew up in Munich where I went to college. Just try getting one small us beer at the oktoberfest. Thousands each day demonstrate that the proper size of one beer is the Mass that is Liter. So it is all what the individual decides. Venues often place the drinks prices high to discourage consumption. Many restaurants do this. Musicians should not perform in places that have this custom. Some people will want more than one and it should be affordable for the venue and the music to be most accessible. Teaching is good but how much does it cost. That determines the accessibility. Sure people with thousands of dollars can go to a community college or university and take whole degree programs in Folk music. It is however not something one finds at the local community rec. center for free or inexpensive. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 09 Oct 10 - 05:11 PM Last night I attended a House concert. Nothing terrible, I had a good time but I can overcome adversity. I donated a gallon of wine which was well received. Again this was a good concert and I enjoyed it bur from a free folk perspective it had a few issues. No one is perfect we all seek improvement. 1. Fee- Reservations were required. =$15. each. this makes it a concert in a house rather than a totally accessible happening. That is an alternative to a concert. Nothing wrong with this and all the money went to the artist but $30. for two of us meant that I had no money for cd purchases. Could have purchased two for that. My recently divorced musician friend could not afford to attend. 2. The performer wanted audience to join in on the choruses. This is good but I could not understand several unfamiliar chorus lines and really wanted to know what they were. I was not going to interrupt the performer but we all could have sung much better with a handout. If you just printed the chrouses you could get maybe 10 per page maybe more....it just makes the connection of audience to music tighter and you can then go home and learn them as well. And its not expensive. On part of the page you could put contact information or a performance schedule. 3. In the course of the performance I had to endure three lefty poltical rants. I was there for music. Anti War, anti big oil, anti economy....dont need this. I have conservative friends with less patience who would have walked out. The songs related to the rant were secondary to the rant which ran about 1/3 the length of the song. Accesibility is not served when an unbalanced political adjenda comes with the performance. One can present the world from many points of view. When it is one sided you annoy the people one half the total audience on the other side. Present balance and you will increase accessibility and it is not hard. 4. Most of the songs were written by the performer or by contemporary writers. I would market it under the title singer songwriter/contemporary music rather than folk. The music was good. The songs were good for what they were. The audience was old. At 57 I was about the youngest. The event was well advertized. I am concerned that poor accessibility has cut off the flow of new blood to the folk world. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 10 - 06:13 PM "The problem is that certain venues and individuals activly [sic] discourage beer drinking. Absinance [sic] is generally a part of their alternative lifestyle, liberal politics, often vegetarian paradiagm [sic] and it turns people off. A barrier. Let adults choose. If its legal it is their business." Every year the church my wife and I attend throws a talent show. There are a lot of good singers who attend the church (lucky for the choir!), and there are a number of musicians there. I generally do my bit. Free, of course. Although there is no written rule that I am aware of, and I know that many members of the congregation, including the pastor, enjoy a glass of wine or a beer now and then, it would be totally inappropriate to serve or drink beer at this event. And you know what? They are always well attended, and people really enjoy it. "I am in favor of individuals determining what they drink and the rest of the world leaving them alone." Fair enough. But if someone gets squiffy to the point of disrupting a performance I am giving or listening to, including a very informal event, then it becomes my business. "Venues often place the drinks prices high to discourage consumption. Many restaurants do this." Did it ever occur to you, Conrad, that there might be a reason to discourage consumption during a performance that has absolutely nothing to do with the profit motive? "Musicians should not perform in places that have this custom." Frankly, for reasons already stated (loud and rowdy boozers in the audience), most musicians prefer to perform in places that put a lid on over-consumption, in order to discourage that sort of boorish behavior. "Teaching is good but how much does it cost." I don't believe Bob charges anything for his educational presentations. And I don't charge extra for talking a bit about the backgrounds of the songs I sing. Nor for conducting or participating in workshops. And I didn't get paid for the educational television series, and although those who watched the show had to have access to a television set, all they had to do was turn their set on and switch it to channel 9. What have YOU done lately, Conrad? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 09 Oct 10 - 06:33 PM Conrad, your 'FREE paradigm' seems to emphasise the importance of access to minority groups such as the poor and those who drink heavily, but I'd like to know how your model includes other minority groups such as the disabled who might need special access not provided by a field. I'd suggest that this group is at least as important as those who live on a low income or those who choose to drink a great deal, and in fact they probably comprise a large percentage of poor people. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM Access for all-yes Running a venue properly means tossing out disruptive folk No need to limit alcohol to responsible consumers We have alcohol at almost all church events never a problem |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM Conrad, we're not talking about a sip of communion wine, here!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:34 PM Do I detect something of a change of tone here. At one point there was talk of consuming a gallon of beer, now it is moderation in everything which is what I think most people who have contributed to this thread have been advocating all along. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:52 PM I think I kinda get Conrad's model (considering he's dismissed all others that have been presented in some way one another) in a way. Raves work that way, with people congregating on generic 'land' and having a ball (albeit simultaneously providing some farmer, local council and local police force strong annoyance), but raves or other err youth subculture are fluid and changeable: like real folk-life they are organic and representative of what people DO rather than what people are made to feel they SHOULD do. Of course traditional folk song was once this way, but it is no longer. I for one, believe that there is a definite place for learning about folk music at school, and if anyone fancies adopting it as a hobby, well that's super. But the main thing is that kids at least know it's there, which is more than I did when I was at school. Or indeed pretty much until I found Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM I wouldn't have given up catholicism if there had been a free bar! Result! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM I notice that Conrad hasn't been around today. He probably snuck into the vestry after this morning's church service, got into the stock of communion wine, and is sleeping it off under the sink, soon to wake up with a massive headache and fully convinced that non-existent flies are crawling around, over, and inside his nose. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:14 PM No don just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations. Must refurbish torches next week. The carlo rossi wine jug landscaping lights worked great first time |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:32 AM Large festivals expensive festivals keep more people out than they let in This is pure gibberish. Any festival, whatever the size, can only accommodate a certain number of people. By definition, a small festival accommodates fewer people than a large one and therefore excludes more. large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone! Tell that to the "vast majority of [Sidmouth] festival goers [who] very much enjoyed the 2009 festival, with over 95 per cent saying that they fully intended to return to the festival in the near future" (Sidmouth Folk Week Review, October 2009). Sidmouth Folk Week attracts many thousands of visitors who attend large and small concerts, dances, workshops and informal events, and who also make a significant contribution to the economy of the town. I can assure Conrad that this, and many others like it, definitely provide a positive folk experience. They also provide many opportunities to drink beer, but for most visitors that is not the primary reason for attending. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM So you charge a lot of money to keep certain people out so that the festival won't fill up....yeah sure! I know all about Sidmouth thanks. Key line: significant contribution to the economy of the town. It is quite possible see above, to hold festivals that make no contributions to the economy of the town but contribute instead entirely to music. Even big festivals can be self help and free but all in the food chain have their hands in your pocket instead. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM Town based folk festivals also provide an excellent opportunity for those who are not "Folkies" to discover folk music. One evening at Whitby this year, I was sat next to a couple from Bristol who, although they did not consider themselves as folkies had come to Whitby for their holidays during folk week because they enjoyed the events and the atmosphere. I also met someone who had just happened to have come to Whitby that week, had discovered the festival was on and was thoroughly enjoying himself. These examples show that, contrary to Conrad's assertion, folk festivals do attract people to folk music and are not excluding them. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM I'm not sure why you think someone organising a festival would not want to fill it up. I doubt you know anything about Sidmouth. Tickets, like those for every other festival, offer fantastic value for money when you consider the range of events covering an entire week. However it is entirely possible to manage without buying a ticket, as there are many free events and informal sessions; however since these events would not exist without the festival then most people would not consider it morally justifiable to attend without making at least some financial contribution. You appear to be proud that your festival would make no contribution to the community. Making a contribution to the local economy is important because it means that the town welcomes the folk festival, which is why it has been able to continue for year after year. One of the things I find most objectionable to your "concept" is the way it freeloads off others - you demand that people volunteer their time, effort and resources, and you expect to impose an event on a community while giving nothing in return. That's not sustainable, and it's not good for folk music. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: frogprince Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM "just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations" Conrad, if you want to have a Guy Fawkes Celebration, you're welcome to. But if I get it right, you're in Maryland; how many people there have any idea what a Guy Fawkes Celebration is about? To me, that just isn't those people's "folk tradition", and I don't get why you would expect any real response to it. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bettynh Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:51 PM I've been thinking about this "folk experience" you keep going on about. At the National Storytelling Festival, John McCutcheon did a set of requests. The audience there loves John McCutcheon. He did a couple, picking them from a basket left on the stage, then picked out a paper and said "This isn't mine, but it's a great song. Unchained Melody." He hummed a bit, then sang the first few words. The audience picked it up (a southern, hymn-singing audience) and sang it with harmony. It sounded great. John waved his hands a bit, then sat at the (electric) piano and played a couple chords at the break (Only rivers flow..). The crowd, unaccompanied, finishes the song and applauds itself uproariously. This was in a large tent (we counted - estimated about 2,00 people) and the acoustics were great. These folks didn't come to the festival for folk music, much. Although there were microphones and loudspeakers, they weren't needed at all. There wasn't a songsheet. It wasn't PLANNED. The music wasn't even particularly folk, although the argument could be made that any tune that is that well-known has crossed the threshold. No one gets to dictate what music or lore is important to the "folk" at any moment in time. I'm going to count this as a "folk experience" for myself, and it couldn't have happened in an open field with no bathrooms available. And yes, the National Storytelling Festival costs. They use lots of volunteers. The town makes money one weekend a year. And if beer was available (I think maybe in one cafe by the glass), it might have cost too much. No one was drinking that I could tell. I'll go next year if I can. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:21 PM Conrad, you're a nincompoop! You keep repeating the same silly fantasies over and over and ignoring what others—who obviously have more experience in folk music than you do—tell you is really the case. I have mentioned—repeatedly—events like the Berkeley Folk Festival, and the Northwest Folklife Festival. The Northwest festival is FREE TO THE PUBLIC, is run by VOLUNTEERS, and the singers, dancers and other performers ALSO VOLUNTEER THEIR SERVICES. NO ONE GETS PAID. And this festival draws A COUPLE OF HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE. The Seattle Center grounds (some 74 acres) is practically shoulder to shoulder for the long weekend (over Memorial Day) on which it is held. There are usually some 6,000 performers of one sort or another, and NO ONE PAYS ANYTHING, NO ONE GETS PAID, and NOBODY MAKES A PROFIT!!! What the hell MORE do you want??? Oh! That's right! FREE BEER! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Sandman Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM Dick Miles.http://www.dickmiles.com |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM "just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations" Interestingly, we here in Oz used to mad over it - but when they banned the sale of fireworks to the public, it died out in a few years. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:46 PM I revived it here about 26 years ago a few years before we got legal fireworks. Thats the problem if its all about one thing that is fireworks then the entire suffers. That is why best festivals have many important reasons for existence. We do torchlit procession, chants, effigies, cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven, play music and have traditional recipes. We also tell the history of the plot. It has to be multi dimensional to have survivability. You cant loose track of the historical significance. We also are all free. Self-help just donations. Got a half keg of beer donated from a craft brewer. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ruth Archer Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:56 PM "That is why best festivals have many important reasons for existence. We do torchlit procession, chants, effigies, cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven, play music and have traditional recipes. We also tell the history of the plot. It has to be multi dimensional to have survivability." Ha! Umm, tell that to Padstow, Abbots Bromley, Haxey, etc... Maybe when tradition is a real, living thing, and not faked-up nonsense cobbled together from traditions and cultures that bear no relevance to the local community, it doesn't need to be "multi-dimensional". |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM "cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven" No known relevance to Guy Fawkes in England. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:50 PM You need the turkey to create the shit for you to deposit in the hedges. Face it folks, in Conradland the traditions are inventions to fit the mold of "folk" in Cornhole's warped mind. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:59 PM I think I know who the turkey is who's the star of that little festival! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM I have an important message for everyone participating in this ridiculous but immeasurably fun thread............Are you ready? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:47 PM >B>1100 Spaw |
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