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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM With no alternatives what are they to do? They think they are getting a folk experience and are mislead! Sorta like the May 1 st celebration in nearby PA this year. A crappy commercial experience at the festival. I brought that up. Oh they said thats not the real festival we have that with free admission and food and drink after we have robbed the public in the crappy daytime version. I know all about the dual so called folk culture. And it is not helping the music in general. Exclusion is not good. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM Conrad, I can only assume the festivals you go to are very different from the ones most of the rest of us (on both sides of the Pond) attend. The majority of festivals here are run by volunteers on a not-for-profit basis. Any surplus they make is usually re-invested in the following year's festival. With the exception of the headline acts, the fees they pay to performers are often not that generous - often less than the act could charge for an individual event - although they often provide accommodation as well. No one I know is getting rich from folk festivals. A few people, including some performers and a few full-time organisers, make a living. If you don't believe that people should make a living from folk music, then the answer is simple - don't pay to see them. Just don't then complain about it. However most people value what the professionals have to offer, and are willing, indeed happy, to pay. Festivals, and especially those with a substantial budget, provide an opportunity to see far more top-quality performers in a short space of time than would otherwise be possible. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music? Watch my lips - folk singers don't play dance music. They sing folk songs. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:19 PM Conrad, this should be a very simple question for you to answer. Since you keep using the phrase so much, I presume you can explain just exactly what you mean by "folk experience." Okay? I'm listening. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM Howard- except for the folk singers that do both. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue. Again professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center. No one needs to make money and then also use volunteers just figure it out it is called abuse for personal gain. Share the joy- everyone volunteer. And if there is not much money involved then why bother? Just work for free make things easier, no accountants to hire....taxes will be easier Yes and get every provider of all things for the festival to do the same. Only a few days a year. Like a barn raising all can pitch in. But you see there is enough money in it for the food chain that no one gives it up. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:34 PM Conrad, what do you mean by "folk experience?" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM vs hollywood experience or rock music experience folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals. what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected Why? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Rob Naylor Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM I've given up Will, the guy's obviously a namesake of the next tube stop east of East Ham! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Niney Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM What I observe is thus: Conrad is terrible and hazy at putting his point across. His point seems to be: He doesn't like festivals where money changes hands, but is happy for them to happen, so long as he and his like minded fellows can also have Free festivals, where no-one is paid, especially not the musicians. One can simply pish in the bushes. He only wants the occasional Free festival, not for all of them to become Free. Just enough to keep the music Free and free. Heck, he's even saying that Free festivals will inadvertently help the "folk" music by spreading the word. So, what's the problem? Don't we all have Free gatherings now and then? Even if it's just a few people round in the garden drinking and playing. Now, I know Conrad can come across as a stoned 60's ne'er was who doesn't listen to anyone else's views or even acknowledge they exist, but as far as I can see here, he's being harmless. Infuriating, but harmless. Don't get me started on his other blinkered threads though.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals. Until the invention of amplifiers, of course. I see a parallel with horses and cars there.. Got any further with answering my questions yet, Conrad? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM Perhaps we should ask Joe Offer to close this thread. It's clearly going nowhere. Conrad takes no notice of what anyone writes, especially if it does not accord with his preconceived ideas. Like I said earlier, his posts are like a transcript of a stuck record. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM Well Niney has phrased it well. I do agree with some of Conrad's underlying ideas, but sadly what he SAYS he wants DOES exist. Perhaps not in his area, or not enough for him. And the idea that 'Big Corporations' has 'taken over' Music - of almost all genres is not a new idea. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,andrew Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM This thread is more about ourselves than the actual topic. We must acknowledge that Conrad sees a problem. In my experience when someone says something, there's always a little bit of truth in it, however small. We can say what we like, but if someone feels something, then they feel it. We can't argue that away. They just feel it. We may not feel it ourselves, but then that's our feeling. My view is that many professional musicians don't get paid enough, and are not supported by "the establishment" in the way they could be. Most people like music of some sort, and are more than happy to pay for it. Anyone can argue with my view, but it won't change it. Only I can change it. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM Well, Conrad hasn't exceeded his one-thread-a-day quota of thread initiations, so I can't find a good reason to close or delete this thread. If you don't like his threads, don't post. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM Maybe what we need is an "Open Mic Fest" where every musican-wantabee and few ol' real musicans whos wives told them to get lost fir the day can get together... No porta-potties unless the porta-potti guy donated 'um fri free... No rent 'cause Conrad is gonna find some ol' dude with some acerage who will allow it to be used for wahtever just so he can check out the young females that come to it... Free food, of coures, will donated by the Free Food Foundation as soon as there is one... Details... What else??? Oh yeah, no permits because they cost money and only get the government checkin' yer stuff out... Me thinks that it must be very nice (at times) to be Conrad... I mean, a little glue in the bag... Stick yer head in and get a big ol' sniff and life is real good fir about 2 minutes and then it's back for more glue... From the Free Glue Foundation, of course... B~ |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:33 PM What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience. That's entirely a matter of opinion, Conrad. Some would have it that amplification just makes it louder, facilitating larger audiences and expanding the market as you would appear to desire, but what do I know? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM There was recently a "Toowoomba Acoustic" event in the nearby park - sadly ALL the music was amplified, and only 'electric guitars' were seen, no UNAMPLIFIED ACOUSTIC music at all .... no piano accordions, flutes, banjos, etc. BUT the Bagpipes were there! Haha no amps need for them! Btw, I know of someone who fell asleep at a Battlefield Band gig - with amplified bagpipes at a 'Folk Music event' .... :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:37 PM Actually, this thread has already thrown up some brilliant contributions from people such as Don, go read them ... :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services. They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today. Liberate everyone and things will grow much faster. For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work. If festival organizers cared about traditional presentation then they would make stages smaller which can be done. But they dont. The concern is with profit not tradition. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services. They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today. But Conrad, the volunteers are donating their services. The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work. It costs money, and it makes stuff louder for more people to hear. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM My apologies, I might have misunderstood you about volunteers there, but earlier you seemed to be berated them for not demanding their share of the proceeds. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue. Apparently I haven't. I've not come across any of these sung waltzes myself, but I'll take your word for it. However, based on the observation that the number of singers working the folk dance circuit here is precisely zero, my conclusion is that in the UK the demand for folk dances is for bands. Of course, singers may also play in bands, and may even sing songs for some dances. This has to be done sparingly, because the tradition here is to have someone to call the dances, which can't be done while someone is singing. My point is that at most festivals most of the performers are singers, not dance band musicians. The market for singers is a different one. Performing at festivals won't generate a lot of "private" work for them (unless you include folk clubs in this category). |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:55 AM TO Guest Niney, I have to disagree with your reading. As I interpret it, Conrad seems to object to "paid" festivals on principle - he seems to think they take away from the essence of folk music (although taking it in context with his other threads, my own conclusion is that he just objects to paying for anything, whether that's music or beer). He may have a point, although the existence of large festivals with professional performers does not detract in any way from the existence of smaller, more intimate (and often free) folk events. However the larger festivals are able to present a greater range and higher quality of music, in a safer and more comfortable environment. I think they do more to bring folk music to more people than the sort of event Conrad advocates. It is perfectly possible to hold a festival of the sort that he prefers, and even to make it free to visitors. However it cannot be done at no cost without freeloading off others' generosity, or ignoring health and safety, insurance, licensing and similar considerations. That's not sustainable as a model for festivals in general. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:00 AM Conrad, at the risk of you repeating the same hackneyed phrases with which you've peppered this thread, it seems to me that you're making statements supporting things which you seem to think are absolutes - but there's no logic or reasoning for the existence of these absolutes in the first place. Examples: Folk festivals should be free so that more people can entertain and be entertained. Why? There's no evidence that I can see that people are prevented from playing or listening to folk music because of the cost of festivals, or because they have to pay to buy some food and drink. There are plenty of free or low-cost opportunities to enjoy and play folk music outside a festival environment. For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. These "intimate settings" have never gone away - folk clubs, singarounds, sessions - they're all around us. And if they were less in evidence with the progression of time and social choice, why is it a given that they should be forced back into those settings? There's space for both small and large settings, each with its own character. Professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center. But for many of us who play this sort of music and participate in the folk community, the distinction between "professional", "semi-professional" and "amateur" is as blurred as hell. I and many of my musical colleagues get bookings at clubs from time to time, and also pop along regularly to participate in sessions and singarounds and club floor spots. The comparatively small amount of cash we get for a club or other booking (small when compared to some other forms of music) is a little compensation which pays for the expenses of doing the gig - travel, food, drink, etc. However, your basic premise - which I don't understand and for which I see no evidence - is that folk music, however you define it (and let's not start that here!) is somehow to be considered as different and separate from other sorts of music, and to be treated separately and specially. Why? It's one form of music among many. I have friends who live for 1950s rock'n roll - go to local clubs and jive the night away. That's their wellspring. Try applying everything you've said about folk music to that kind of music - and see the absurdity of the position you've taken. The other absurd supposition is that folk music - a fairly organic and natural kind of music - should be forced into a particular kind of social organisation or environment which suits you by a set of rules of your own making. Basically, you're putting up Aunt Sallys and refusing to let them be knocked down. Just remember, Conrad, that music and the playing of music should never be the subject of a social or polemical diktat. It's for fun, pleasure, friendship, entertainment - music for the soul, not the social engineer. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM I do not berate volunteers I criticize the musicians for tolerating a system that exploits them for profit taking. What other industry gets away with such nonsense? Yes amplification also costs money glad you noticed helping to make the music less accessible. It just makes things louder and ruins the folk experience. If you can cram more people into a session then you make more money thats why its there not for quality. Folk music is no longer the same when forced into large venues that degrade its basic qualtities simply to make money. That people go is not relevant they are being manipulated. Sometimes you have a responsibility to the music that is more important than satisfying or entertaining people. The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music and big festival venues ruin this for profit taking. They exploit volunteers and this is all supported by professionals. It would be refreshing to see a movement "folk musicians against exploitation of volunteers" Lets see profit sharing and or a decent wage. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:59 AM Which of course raised the cost of my bier. Well, having paid for your bier, Conrad, perhaps you could lie down on it for a quiet rest and give us all a bit of piece. After answering some of the interesting questions put to you which you appear to have ignored. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM Ok lots to scroll through.....re state the questions many thanks Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM Volunteers are just that - no one is press-ganging them into doing it. Most volunteers are in fact paid in kind, in the form of free tickets, so they are being rewarded in a way which they find acceptable. Likewise the audiences - just how are they being "manipulated"? No one is forcing them to go, if they don't like the prices or the entertainment they can choose not to go. Or they could volunteer and get in free. I agree with Will, at the very least produce some evidence, or at least a logical argument, to support your claims. Unless you can do so, I will remain unconvinced both by your criticism of commercial festivals or your promotion of free ones. While you're about it, please explain how your free festival is to be funded - or do you really believe that you can find businesses and public bodies willing to donate everything you need? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 02 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM It's great to see that hippiedom isn't as yet completely dead! But, Conrad, worthy though your intentions maybe, It will never work as a business plan! I've just spent nearly a £1000 making my first solo CD. Mainly to let people far and wide hear my music. People in different countries to which I can not possibly visit personally. In your world you would expect me to just give them away, would you? Sorry Pal...I'm on a pension. I don't ever expect to make a profit, but I can't afford to just give them away. Like others, I also play at events for free, amongst friends, etc. I have no problem about that, but I resent someone like you telling me that that is the only way to spread my music. Errant nonsense. How do you pay your bills may I ask? Do you live in a hovel somewhere? No council tax? No use of Water , Gas, Electricity? You generate no waste or rubbish that your council has to collect on a weekly basis? Clever man if you can do that. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:09 AM Why do people in far away countries NEED to hear your music? Nothing wrong with it but not a requirement. I am promoting a plan but it is not a BUSINESS plan. It is a plan to do without business as much as possible. I am not advocating that you give away anything. I would consider selling cds to be private rather than public. I would say that you have the best chance in business to perform locally for free wherever you can. Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market. I have several day jobs! Again nothing wrong with working but the domination of venues by greedy professionals and others in the festival food chain should stop. Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse. Folk musicians should come clean and either share proceeds no matter how small or stop using volunteers. Easy! Just go to an all volunteer folk world. Barn raisings. Look into the very successful custom. We have to trust the tradition to grow which it cant do until we peel off all the capitalistic accretions which are keeping it limited. Yes there are people who can not find the money to attend. Why keep them from the music? Cultural grants too are particularly stupid. I keep hearing that pro bands who are in music for a business get state and local grants. Somehow its always a well known professional performer getting the subsidized concert assistance. Folks this money is taken from funds needed drastically these days by the unemployed, homeless and needy. I am seeing it go to bands made up of musicians all of whom have excellent well paying day jobs! Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions. Well - there goes the neighbourhood... And there goes me - tired of all this bullshit. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Melissa Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM "Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse." Churches, Youth Organizations, Community Groups, Museums, Hospitals, Schools..but other than that and several others, you're probably right. Maybe you should contact the President about this concern. He seems to think Volunteerism is a good, healthy thing. Some say he actually encourages it. If you put all your attention on a 'Stamp Out Volunteers' campaign and manage to suceed with it, you'd be doing a great service to people who are misguided enough to feel good about offering their time in a productive way to work with others and accomplish something. Just think of all the people with limited physical stamina and no other social outlet! You could help them never leave their house again..and they could die happily un-useful and lonely. Wow, that would be a great service, Conrad. After you're rid of those pesky helpers, maybe you could branch out and eliminate ALL Good Deed Doers. Boy howdy, wouldn't that pretty-up the world nicely?! ** I'd like a little clarity about 'ordinary people' Earlier, you seemed to be saying that these Ordinary People make better, more wholesome music than Musicians. When you say 'ordinary people', do you use the term the same way most of us would use 'non-musician'? If so, are you saying that you believe non-musicians make better music than musicians? Or do you mean that those of us who are non-professionals are more ordinary than the ones who get paid? Thanks, I'll go back to lurking now. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market. You really have no grasp on reality at all, do you? The reason bands provide free downloads is to attract audiences to their live gigs, where they get paid, sell CDs and merchandise, and all the other things you claim to despise. For folk musicians, the paid gigs are at festivals. If they do those for free, where is this "market" you claim will be freed up? Volunteers are used, not to make money, but because without them most festivals would not be financially viable. You may not care about that, but in the real world that would mean the festival would not happen. Volunteers are happy to give their time to make sure it does, because they value the music. For some, it may be the only way they can afford to attend, but for most it is a way to feel part of the festival and know they have made a contribution. What right have you to sneer at them for that? As for all those people who happily hand over their money, have a great time, and come back to rave on Mudcat about how wonderful it was, apparently they have been "manipulated". Go back to your cars and leave folk music to people who appreciate it. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM I've tried, and I've tried and I've tried....but Heck, I can't come up with one single solitary musicians name who could be called a "Greedy Professional" Not here in the UK anyway... Most are on (or below) the minimum wage. And that includes me. There is a well known phrase we use here in England...I'll let you re-arrange it. Life Get A Don't You Why. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM Churches are non profit. Professional folk musicians and organizers are all about profit. hence if you volunteer you are really being abused and may be really stupid. Should we condone people just liking abuse> If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would? Even if it is a small ammount. No they act like gods and get their servants. WRONG Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid? Non profits are absolutely different. Non-profit know what I mean.] You act as if organizers of festivals are non profits. Go figure. I knew a bunch of them and profit was everything. And no risk once the rainy day fund is set up. Come on exploitation is exploitation for financial gain. It needs to end. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM Churches are non profit. Hmm.. there's a whole can of worms there, probably best left unopened. If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would? How much of your money do you share with the exploited volunteers? Or are you partly instrumental in their exploitation? Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid? We aren't stupid enough to miss the fact that you exploit them too. Or doesn't it count if you call it 'art' and 'accept donations'? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM Conrad, you obviously have no clear idea of what a "folk experience" actually is. You've ducked my question by merely comparing it to other kinds of performances, but without specifying what makes a "folk performance" different from any other musical experience. I have already describe, a number of times here, the Northwest Folklife Festival, which is run by volunteers, none of the singers receive any pay, and which is open, free of charge, to the public. It's held at the Seattle Center, a 74 acre area that encompasses several concert halls and auditoriums (auditoria?), meeting rooms, and open spaces where stages either already exist (such as the amphitheater in front of the Horiuchi mural), or are put up and run by volunteers. All manner of folk events are held there, traditional ballads to bluegrass to Native American chanting and drumming to Australian sheep shearing to—you name it, you'll probably find it there. Yes, there are concession stands there selling food and drink (non-alcoholic) to those who wish. No one forces them to buy anything, and if one is hungry but doesn't want to buy at any of the stands, there is nothing to stop them from leaving the Seattle Center and going to one of the nearby restaurants (or, for that matter, a couple of nearby taverns and cocktail lounges), then returning to the Center. Or one could always bring a sandwich and a bag of chips. So—what you are asking for already exists. If not in your area, then get off your butt and organize one. Just like we did here!! By the way—lest there be any misunderstand: the Seattle Center is owned by the city, like a public park, and it is maintained by the taxpayers. Other events on a smaller scale consist of such things as the "hootenanny" which Bob Nelson held last weekend in his fairly capacious back yard. Pot luck, BYOB, and a whole batch of people spent the afternoon playing and singing for each other. No set program. If these things take running at all, Bob runs them with a light hand. If one singer in particular seems to be dominating things, or one person is sitting there with a guitar, but hasn't sung anything yet, he'll say something like, "Hey, Nancy. Have you got a song or two?" And if Nancy wants to sing, great. If not, there's no rule that says she can't just sit and listen to others. These "hootenannies" are not staged and programmed events like some of the staged "hootenannies" in the 1960s, they are like the ones prior to the "folk revival" in which singers and musicians got together to sing and play for each other and just jam. And other people would come just to listen and enjoy. A party, where, instead of getting drunk and falling down a lot, people sing for each other. For fun! That's what I would call a "folk experience." Nobody's keeping you from throwing a hootenanny, Conrad. Except your apparent reluctance to lift your fanny out of your recliner. There is no reason whatsoever for not presenting a concert by a professional singer of folk songs and ballads in a concert hall, charging people admission to the concert, paying the singer, and seeing to it that those who organized the concert also get paid for their endeavor. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a professional singer choosing to sing traditional folk songs and ballads rather than operatic arias and Schubert lied, or popular music, or Broadway show tunes, or Swiss yodeling, or Tuvan throat-singing. These, too, are what I would consider "folk experiences," since folk music is an integral and essential part of them. Why do you begrudge professional singers who chose to sing folk songs? If you don't like it, you don't have to go to their performances. But, I might add, MOST people I know of who became singers of folk songs, either professionally or just for fun, were initially inspired to do so by hearing professional singers such as Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Harry Belafonte, The Kingston Trio, et al THEY were the ones who created the interest in and the audiences for folk music back in the 1950s and that's why there are so many people interested in folk music today. And these folks were, in turn, inspired to do what they do by hearing other singers, probably most of whom where professionals. So, Conrad, instead of calling them "greedy" and "mercenary," IF you really are concerned about increasing interest in folk music at all, you should be profoundly grateful to them—and to those professional singers who continue to promulgate ever wider interest in traditional folk music. It's out there, Conrad. And a great deal of it is free. But don't complain if no one walks into your house and presents it to you on a silver platter just because you're too indolent to get up out of your lounge chair. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM By the way, I almost missed this. "Churches are non profit." True, Conrad. But—the clergy and the staff of a church get a regular salary (you did realize that, didn't you?). And the building itself, be it a small country church or a huge Gothic cathedral with gold inlaid icons, silver chalices, ornate stained glass windows, and lavish tapestries, must be maintained. Most organs go on the fritz from time to time and must be repaired and maintained. Organists and choir directors also get a salary. Bach wrote most of his music while employed as the organist of a church. The money to do all these things doesn't come from God, delivered by an angel dressed like a UPS delivery man with wings and a halo. The money is provided by contributions from the congregation. And these same churches often provide free meals to the poor and the indigent, sometimes provide low-cost housing the homeless, sponsor counseling programs and meeting rooms for such groups as Alcoholics Anonymous—as does the church that my wife and I attend. It also administers an "Alternatives to Violence" program to prisons and reformatories in the area, and it is the national headquarters for the Lutheran Peace Fellowship. Yes, churches are non-profit. But who do you think pays for all of this? You have a very shallow and naïve idea of the way things work, Conrad. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM Conrad has no understanding of jackshit Don.......The fumes from his unbathed body created a BO that turned his brain to mush years ago and desssicatted his already tiny balls to the size of BB's. Can't we all just agree that Conrad is fucked up and stop this thread now? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM "churches are non-profit" I ran head smack into this garbage in the SCA - also a 'non-profit organization', where misguided people insisted that events should run at a loss... All that phrase means is that no individual who 'owns' the organization (is a paid up member!) can get a 'share dividend from the profits' - it is all plowed back into the organization. Such organizations may - in various countries - actually pay income tax on certain of their money making activities. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM Conrad, your concern for "stupid" volunteers and "manipulated" audiences is not only misplaced, it is unbelievably arrogant and condescending. Can you not understand that the people who volunteer, or buy festival tickets, are intelligent adults who know what they are doing, get pleasure from it and believe they are getting value for their money and time? If they didn't, why would they keep going back each year? Besides, the type of festival you are advocating seems to depend entirely on volunteers donating not only their time but food, facilities and presumably money to pay for those things which cannot just be brought along. Are they "stupid" too, and aren't you concerned about exploiting them? I struggle to understand how your festival could possibly draw people into folk music. Apparently they are expected to gather in a field with no shelter, presumably no seating (unless some exploited volunteer provides it), and required to piss in the hedge and crap in the ditch. The won't be able to hear the music because there's no PA. The event could be shut down by the authorities at any moment because you don't have the necessary licences and permits. Is that really a good advertisement for folk music? Your whole argument seems to be based on your belief that people are getting rich by running folk festivals and performing as folk musicians. No one else seems to know of anyone who is doing this. In particular, most folk musicians could earn far more performing in other genres, but they don't because they love the music However if there are a few people getting rich out of it, it will be because they provide what people want - good luck to them. Most people who appreciate folk music value it sufficiently to pay what it is worth. Apparently you don't, and expect other people to give it to you for nothing. Can't you see how exploitative that is? and yet you have the nerve to criticise others. Take a good look at yourself. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money..... Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse. You dont need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology. Small stages 30 or more set up many of them.... Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid. People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good. Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it. Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year. All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money..... They charge money because they have to recover their expenses. Most festivals, here at least, are run on a not-for-profit basis where the surplus goes towards the following year's festival Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations But how are they funded? They still have costs to meet. Usually they are sponsored by public money, but you seem to object to this. If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse. You really are incredibly patronising. There is a large voluntary not-for-profit sector covering charitable and artistic activities which relies heavily on volunteers. It is very normal, and is usually considered a good thing, as an opportunity to contribute to the community - by everyone but you apparently You don't need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology. For centuries there were no folk festivals. Folk music was performed in much smaller environments where of course PA is not necessary. A festival, in any meaningful sense of the word, has large groups of people trying to listen to the music. That requires PA, especially out of doors or in a tent with no natural acoustics. Small stages 30 or more set up many of them.... Possible, but likely to be chaotic Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid. Stop being so patronising. Why do you think you know better than people what they want, or how they should spend their money? What it means is that they value what they are getting. People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good. No, but it still means they value what they get out of it. Your problem is that you don't value music enough to want to pay what it's worth. You want people to give it to you for free. Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it. Do people spend all day on the metro, while eating and drinking as well? Of course not - they travel for a short time and then they will find themselves somewhere with bathrooms. You cannot seriously believe you can run a festival without basic facilities. Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year. Why should he? He's got a business to run, staff to pay and a family to feed. Maybe you can find one who's interested enough in folk music to sponsor your event, but don't rely on it. You're just trying to freeload off other people. All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple. In the majority of cases that means no festival. Simple. No festival would be financially viable if it had to pay all the people it needs to make it run at the market rate. People are willing to donate their time (usually not for nothing, they do get free tickets) in order to ensure that the event takes place. If they are happy to do this, what right have you to object? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM Howard. Don't waste your keyboard on this guy. Apart from anything else, he's far to easy a target. His ideas are obviously ludicrous, and unworkable. Nuff said. What is it about this place (which by and large is a huge repository of information) that seems to attract these people...I could name two others but I won't. Let's just ignore this thread and it will drop off the bottom in the next 24 hours. He really isn't worth the hassle, Is he? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM The big problem in this discussion is that you do not realize that I am calling for complete paradigm change. -Yes in early times there were lots of festivals. Markets, saint's days, loads and loads of they all had musicians.Church events, state events. Small venues not huge ones scattered here and there. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS MODEL JUST BREAK UP THE FESTIVAL INTO MANY SMALL STAGES (30 OR SO SEATS) AND DO IT CORRECTLY YOU CAN STILL ACCOMMODATE THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE BUT IN A WAY THAT IS PROTECTIVE OF THE TRADITIONS AND REAL. THE ONLY REASON THAT FESTIVALS HAVE BIG STAGES IS BECAUSE THEY FORCE MORE PEOPLE IN TO MAKE MORE MONEY FOR LESS TIME PLAYING MUSIC. -When a community gets together to do an event everyone can pitch in. You know what that means? Each brings to the event the materials and skills that they have readily available. THERE IS NO REASON THAT EVENTS CAN NOT BE PUT TOGETHER IN THIS WAY. QUITE POSSIBLE. IT MEANS THERE ARE NO EXPENSES! -The biggest problem with the folk music world is that is trying to take a special genre rooted in the cultural experience, intimate and emulate the rock star and hollywood star model. This is not necessary. You dont have to make a cd, you dont need a tour, you dont need a stage crew, you dont have to become well known you just have to play music, share it and when a public event you do it for free when a private event comes along you charge money. WHEN THE FOLK MUSIC WORLD HAS TO SUPPORT WANNABE ROCK STAR LIKE FOLKS WE ARE ALL PAYING TOO MUCH. WE DONT NEED STAR WORSHIP. We also do not need events which are primarily entertainment and sales events. The primairy task for festivals is: 1. Preservation of the old material in living form. 2. Encouraging performance and composition as a part of the lifeway at home by ordinary people Nothing in this requires expense or profit small or large. You just have to think differently and be open to major paradigm change. If its not free you are keeping someone out. That is intolerable. I dont care what the organization if people are getting paid please do not ask for volunteers 0that practice is unethical. I dont care if the volunteers like it. They are still being used. yeah! I have seen folk musicians relaxing by the hotel pool whilst volunteers were doing the hard work. Yes there are exceptions but not enough of them. Nothing wrong with professional musicians but their role in public needs to be adapted. Once the music is freed there will be much more access and more opportunities for private events. Yes we can have folk music everywhere. No sense rationing it. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 03 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM Conrad, You won't listen, you won't discuss, and you ignore questions. You just keep trotting out the same nonsense. What's the point of all this? You aren't convincing anyone as far as I can see, and aren't likely to. On the one hand, you say you do your stuff for free and anyone who gets paid is wrong, and on the other hand, you say you take donations and the volunteers are wrong and stupid. Go away and think about it until you can come out with something that makes sense. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM Listening, discussing answering questions The point of it all is to demonstrate that professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model No I did not say anyone who gets paid is wrong. I said that when you charge money the price goes up that gets passed along to those wishing to attend and it will keep people out which should never happen if the goal is widening the market. Do not confuse donations with fees. Donations are totally optional. My art is 100% accessible. All the time. Unless I am having to drive far out of town. I have never objected to free will donations. Those who volunteer to help people make money are misguided, maybe stupid. Why cant the musicians give everyone a share? Who are professional musicians that they take money without sharing? Makes perfect sense to me! Conrad |
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