Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?

Subject: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:29 PM

Hello all - I keep noticing how many important figures from the English folk music and dance community are without Wikipedia pages of their own;

I first began to register this when searching for individuals who turned out to be lacking named entries - including Bob Copper, Phoebe Smith, Tony Rose and Pete, Chris & Sue Coe, to name but 6.

In addition, I note that many recipients of EFDSS's Gold Badge Award are also lacking their own entry - including the likes of Dr Ian Russell and Malcolm Taylor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Folk_Dance_and_Song_Society#EFDSS_Gold_Badge_Awards

...This forum is a goldmine of authoritative (and often first-hand) knowledge of these and other luminaries, which might yet be lost if not captured over the next decade or two... It could be a vital contribution to the legacy of the UK folk community, to harness this expertise within a universal platform like Wikipedia.

Do any of you actively contribute to Wikipedia at the moment - on folk-related topics, or anything else?

Thanks for any/all thoughts on the matter!

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:38 PM

Wikipedia doesn't accept primary source material.

Use Folkopedia instead?

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:46 PM

Cheers Jack, I browse Folkopedia too, but I do feel it would be good to ensure that folk isn't hidden in a corner - there's so much to be gained in terms of interest and awareness from the warren of Wiki-rabbit holes formed by having present, well-linked content on that major platform.

Also, I'm not suggesting that people submit primary content, anecdotes, reminisces etc, which as you say would be neither accepted by, nor appropriate for, Wikipedia. But, people with the levels of knowledge found on these boards are superbly well-positioned to make accurate, well-sourced/thoroughly referenced contributions to the Wikiverse.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: cnd
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:51 PM

There's a user here who's contributed to several folk-related Wiki threads who may chime in, but I can't recall their name atm

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:57 PM

I have created and/or extended (from bare bones) a number of Wikipedia articles in the past, for folk (and other) based artists. To avoid controversy and the possibility of deletion, it is necessary to establish that the subject is "notable" by Wikipedia standards (I have on occasion fallen foul of this). Key to these are (1) "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself", and/or (5) "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)", and/or (12 "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network" (these are a subset of 12 criteria set out at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)). Most of the persons mentioned above would have no trouble meeting these criteria, I would say.

I am pretty busy at the moment on other tasks of a public service nature (science not music) but offer the above as a hint to others who may be interested. Note that there is plenty of scope for using Wikipedia as a "holding place" for relevant info providing that it can all be adequately sourced; or even a "bare bones" start can be useful for others to carry further.

Pages I have created or added to generally start off small (ish) but can grow into something more extensive. For an example small one, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Fox_(musician); for something longer (more of an essay / mini research project!) see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bushwhackers_(band) .

Once something is created, others may well jump in over time and extend or, sometimes, delete / change portions of your work, but them's the breaks, and it is best not to get too hung up on that unless one views the changes as definitely undesirable and is prepared to argue the toss.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 02:47 PM

RE the above: I should add that Wikipedia articles can / should include images, but only those that have (generally) been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons (a separate operation) under an appropriate licence, so as to be freely re-usable(generally with attribution). So as a parallel activity, I have digitised a number of my folk and other music-related images (as well as those in other realms) and uploaded them to Wikimedia Commons, such that I and others can use them in Wikipedia articles and anywhere else (for current list see this link), and I would strongly encourage others to do the same, unless you plan to extract commercial revenue from them down the track (not a consideration in my case: more an effort to avoid loss to posterity in due course, when all my possessions are sent to the tip or the nearest charity shop on my demise...)

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Tony, this is really useful. I think I'm going to attempt one for Doc Rowe, then perhaps Bob Copper. If no-one else does, I might try a Tony Rose one, too!

I actually found your Bob Fox page at the weekend, when looking to see whether Benny Graham (a 2020 EFDSS Gold Badge winner) had a page of his own. I think the only Wiki-presence he has is the mention of his and Bob's collaborations on the page you wrote.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 05:55 PM

Sounds good ... the hardest part is walking the fine line between what others will agree (over time) is of general / educational interest to the world outside, and what is really trivia ... I may have overstepped it myself in the Bushwhackers article, where I wrote: "Brian Loughlin (obscured) was seated behind Kempster; his left leg (with carpet slipper) is just visible in this photograph.", but hey, one man's trivia is another man's vital information perhaps :)

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 06:44 PM

I am presuming the "mudcat person with wikipedia experience" alluded to a few posts back was myself...

You might like to see this example article for Australian traditional singer Sally Sloane as one that is somewhat more fleshed-out than the Bob Fox one, also something I have created reasonably recently (since one's writing style adapts to the nature of the medium over time, hopefully). Good luck to all who venture down the Wikipedia contributions path!

- Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 08:30 PM

Tony,

Brian was probably the most important member of The Bushwhackers, he was the peacemaker & provided the beat with his lagerphone.

He is also important in that pic - he hadn't allowed a broken bone to keep him from the gig! Tho Cecil played his lagerphone to keep them on the beat.

sandra

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: cnd
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 08:48 PM

Yes Tony, you were the person I had in mind.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 12:34 AM

No , I suppose having been involved doing gigs for 45 years plus and having run folk clubs and a festival, I should be mentioned.
I understand that people set the wiki up themselves.Frankly i would rather spend my time at the moment playing music supprting folk clubs by doing virtual zooms . what is the point of being famous in the folk world if there are no folk clubs left

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 02:18 AM

Hi Dick, I suspect that perhaps you are referring to something other than Wikipedia?? n any case, from the "about Wikipedia" page:

" - Wikipedia is an online free-content encyclopedia project helping to create a world in which everyone can freely share in the sum of all knowledge

- Wikipedia is written collaboratively by largely anonymous volunteers who write without pay

- Wikipedia is a live collaboration differing from paper-based reference sources in important ways. It is continually created and updated, with articles on new events appearing within minutes, rather than months or years. Because everybody can help improve it, Wikipedia has become more comprehensive than any other encyclopedia."

The only limitation on Wikipedia articles are that the subjects have to satisfy some criteria of "notability", in other words, reliable secondary sources (other than the subject or person concerned) have deemed that they are worth writing about; otherwise every person in the world could have an entry (which is not the purpose of Wikipedia, i.e. it is not a directory).

In my experience, Wikipedia articles are useful in that they are a single point to collate (and in some cases, make sense of) otherwise scattered, published information existing "somewhere", as well as propagate it to the world. Hence the original poster's desire, to see more articles about noteworthy folk musicians, so that information on them becomes more widely disseminated and recognised outside our "folk" silo, where appropriate of course, as well as providing an education resource for present and future interested persons.

In your example, "doing gigs for 45 years plus and having run folk clubs and a festival" does not automatically qualify a person for inclusion as a Wikipedia article subject, but if they have done something notable enough to have an article written about them by a third party elsewhere, and/or satisfied one of the other criteria as mentioned above, that should do the trick...

I was a bit sceptical about the value and quality of wikipedia content until around 2006, by which time it had been going for 5 years and was beginning to provide a useful place to look up various technical terms useful for my employmennt, and was pleasantly surprised at how far it had got, on a voluntary contribution basis. Now it is better still of course, but still many slightly lesser known (but arguably notable) persons can be missing from its coverage. It is up to suitably motivated individuals to carry on adding and improving content as they feel the urge, and have time available. Personally I enjoy the challenge, on occasion, of doing the required background sleuthing either to improve a current article, or create a new one from scratch. - keeps my brain alive. I also enjoy singing and playing - the 2 (or 3) are not mutually exclusive!

- Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 03:39 AM

I have seen little in the way of the revivalist singers from the 1950s 60s and 70s ~ the likes of Ewan, Bert and the early folk club artists mentioned above ~ maybe the powers that be thought they would all go away shortly, of course the Communists were not flavour of the month in US with Pete Seeger, the Almanacs, the Weavers ~ Woody Guthrie and CND etc which may not have helped the recording of British singers ~more tendency to look towards the singer songwriters of the era
The song history seems to be all around the "revival" perhaps lost for ever or not recorded ~ which is a pity ~ I know that audio recordings were made in folk clubs but what about early visual recordings that could be collated and shown and committed to the folk song historical archive

Ray

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 04:11 AM

Hi Ray, at least some of these already have articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewan_MacColl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._L._Lloyd

As well as this overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_folk_revival

(None of these anything to do with my efforts)

So I am not sure quite what you are saying.

Of course if there are online video recordings of relevance, once identified, they can easily be linked (by any wikipedia editor, or in fact anyone) to the articles in question.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 04:53 AM

In your example, "doing gigs for 45 years plus and having run folk clubs and a festival" does not automatically qualify a person for inclusion as a Wikipedia article subject, but if they have done something notable enough to have an article written about them by a third party elsewhere, and/or satisfied one of the other criteria as mentioned above, that should do the trick... quote
   
So , since you do the wiki reviews on folk musicians and singers , you make the decision on who you include on wiki.,sois it your decision as to who you include on wiki?
I find it unfathomable that you have not included Tony Rose ,Doc Rowe, Bob Copper Pete Coe Tony Hall Nick Dow Richard Grainger
So, you decide who you consider important enough to be included in wiki. it sounds like you are saying that my contribution to the uk folk scene is not notable enough to warrant inclusion.
WIKI is written by amatuers [volunteeres without pay] about professionals,
we are back to the same scenario, as the amateurs who wrote reviews about professional musicians gigs and cds, and in effect have a say in their musical careers, the scenario of one persons subjective opinion,    ...fortunately with the advent of internet listening you tube etc the power of journalistic reviewers has diminished.

Tony,
in the past i have done all five of the following requirements
Key to these are (1) "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself", and/or (5) "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)", and/or (12 "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network
1 The Observer book of Folk Music.Article in The Living Tradition, Folk Roundabout etc Mardles etc etc
5 recordings with so called independent notables, Martin Carthy Jez Lowe Sara Grey and/ or 12. Folk on 2 several times, Anglia Television
I have in fact answered all the above criteria Iawait your response with anticipation, however i feel i might might be rather like waiting for a no53 bus
yours cordially not Tunbridge Wells

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 05:42 AM

I find it remarkable how many noted concertina singers players are not mentioned on wiki.Steve Turner Lea Nicholson Roy Clinging Robert Harbron Dick Miles Dave Townsend, does someone have it in for players of accidental collisions, watch out for your bellows.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 06:43 AM

Dick, I find your tirade somewhat strange. I do not write or control Wikipedia (which has its own policies, not set by me), although I have contributed some articles to it. Blaming me for something that is not my creation is simply odd. As for omissions, it is for the world of interested parties to fill them, which is something that I and the original poster attempt to encourage. Just sayin'... Perhaps you can get your facts right before sounding off here any further.

Cordially - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 07:16 AM

Doc Rowe would be a high priority because he has so many links across the folk scene.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 08:56 AM

Tirade?,
Well it is a post that is factually accurate, there are glaring obvious omissions, but in fairness it is composed by volunteer enthusiastic amateurs, so one must expect some degree of amateurishness, Tony, by your own admission you are partly responsible for some entries.
Therefore, it is what it is, at present limited, in its information,and not a comprehensive up to date professional picture of the uk folk revival in 2021
plus one must query one of the criteria for an entry, why? well ..in 2021 most top peformers produce their own recordings, this was an idea that was started by MacColl/Seeger, to avoid getting ripped off by recording businessmen, sadly not everyone did this and some got ripped off by Bulmer and others
So the necessity in 2021 for perfomers to be refused an entry because they have produced their own recordings is outdated

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 09:24 AM

Jumping to the bottom here to point out that Wikipedia is a place where YOU can add content if you think it needs to be there.

-30-

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 09:57 AM

Sandman:

So , since you do the wiki reviews on folk musicians and singers , you make the decision on who you include on wiki.,sois it your decision as to who you include on wiki?
I find it unfathomable that you have not included....

Well it is a post that is factually accurate, there are glaring obvious omissions...

Not even. Wiki does not engage in prior restraint. It's not even possible. ie: A subject, any subject, cannot be excluded until it after it has been (improperly) included.

What you don't know about the work flow is the only problem you have at present.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 10:01 AM

In short, you can't complain about what "somebody" hasn't included when "somebody" is you, and you haven't bothered to try.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 10:38 AM

Jeri, I have a website www.dickmiles.com that is there for the purpose of selling cds etc.
what, i am saying amongst other things is that the criteria for having an entry is out dated.
2. i have enough to do without doing other professional performers entries,
3 wiki tries to give the impression thtat it is comprehensive and at this stage it is not.
4. however this night change if perfomers who are missing are sufficiently computer savvy to do this orhave the journalistic skills which i do not , of course some of the older perfomers are not, and why should they be?
their skills lie in playing music not being journalists.
I have every right to criticise something that appears to be or gives the impression of being comprehensive when it is not
5. for all these reasons i think[personally] it is more important to have a website than a wiki entry, of course if someone who has journalistic skills, wishes to do this for me i would be happy about it.
6Jeri as usual you make assumptions that i have not tried or that other performers have not tried, we are musicians not journalists , when i want a website i go to a website designer. something i cannot do myself.
7. we have to do what we are skilled at.why should a musician be expected to be a journalist or a website designer

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 11:10 AM

So I am not sure quite what you are saying.

"Of course if there are online video recordings of relevance, once identified, they can easily be linked (by any wikipedia editor, or in fact anyone) to the articles in question."

My comments should be clear, but what I am saying is that little video footage seems to have been made and tv certainly has shown little of the folk genre from the times I mention above ~also folk of the era seems largely singer song writer

wiki information is dependent on what was made and is now in the public domain ~I also ask WHY that was and make a certain political reason ~ who knows??

Ray

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: pattyClink
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 12:14 PM

You know it does sort of go across the folk grain to have the 'notable ' rule. So if someone was world-wide famous 'for 15 minutes', they are in. Or if they have celebrity status for whatever reason. But if someone labors along in small clubs and homes and fairs for a lifetime keeping the music alive, nope. Pretty nonsensical for folk/trad.

That said, yes we do need to work up some new entries, perhaps relating the sagas of how it goes here on the 'cat. ?

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 12:25 PM

A couple of quick comments to add -

I believe Wikipedia look down on people trying to submit pages relating to themselves, or indeed trying to edit them. A friend was put in Wiki jail with a temporary ban, for attempting to correct the page about his own music.

Secondly - as Tony Rees says, the 'notability threshold' they use can be quite a high bar to clear. One of the best ways to help to ensure that a new page you may create is accepted by moderators, is if the subject you're intending to write about is already referenced on other pages.

By way of an example - I'm thinking of writing a page on the folklorist Christina Hole, who has no page at present; but if you search Wikipedia for her name, she already appears many times as her writings have been quoted on other pages, focused on the customs she documented and analysed.

If your chosen subject doesn't have that prior presence, in advance of trying to create a page for them there's value in 'seeding' mention of them elsewhere. For example, if I try to write a page for Tony Rose, to help that along I might edit Dolly Collins's page to note her contribution to 'On Banks of Green Willow'. Tony's work with Nic Jones is thankfully already mentioned on Nic's Wiki.

Thirdly, to re-emphasise what Tony Rees and others state - I'm posting to encourage *all* forum users with time and inclination, plus the subject knowledge and tech confidence, to contribute.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 01:21 PM

Dick, all I'm saying is you maybe shouldn't bitch about nobody doing what you're unwilling to do.

Wikipedia is a collective thing. If you find something lacking, FIX IT.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 02:40 PM

Jeri .i object to you using the term bitching, you are missing the point wiki pretends to be something it is not , it is not comprehensive it is not professional[it is formulated by unpaid volunteers] yet it sets outdated rules,and purports to have high standards, it is pretentious yet in ths particular case it does not offer comprehensive representation of the uk folk revival, it does not give an accurate comprehensive picture
it is not easy to fix, jeri wikipedia is not a truly collective thing its a curates egg, it uis not a reliable dictionary at all

"I believe Wikipedia look down on people trying to submit pages relating to themselves, or indeed trying to edit them." quote
how the hell is that collective .Jeri

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 02:55 PM

I think we have established from the above that Wikipedia is a community endeavour, with no one person responsible for the content. I agree that there are notable omissions - only last year I created a page for the Von Trapp Family, prompted by "The Sound of Music" coming around on Television for the umpteenth time ... yes there were pages on individual family members, but none for the original singing group, and the "real" family behind the story - now rectified.

I create or contribute to other pages as the fancy takes me, sometimes spurred by completely unrelated things - for example Shirburn Castle in Oxfordshire (inspired by glimpses of it on an episode of "Inspector Morse") or the Teignmouth Electron (sailing boat) - inspired by discovering its sad history. I created the bulk of the page "Harry Robertson (folk singer)" on discovering that I live near Ballina, home of the "Ballina Whalers" song of Harry's as popularised by Nic Jones... plus numerous other examples (who were the players that inspired the creation of Gibson Byrdland?)

No, I have not created pages for any notable concertina players since that is not my main interest (being mainly a guitarist) although as it happens I do (did) know Dave Townsend and Ralph Jordan well, and have albums by (among others) Tommy Williams, Lea Nicholson and Michael Hibbert on my shelf. Similarly I have not created any articles on saxophone players, or hurdy gurdy players, or lots of things; I leave that to others who may be motivated to do so, and have the time and/or interest in learning how to be a wikipedia contributor. For sure it is not for everyone and there is a learning curve, but it is amazing what some folk will do.

I agree with the sentiment expressed above that the Wikipedia criteria developed for notability of musicians is not an ideal fit with what "we" in the folk world might consider notable. However most persons we may like to see in Wikipedia, that do not yet have entries, must have received *some* independent press coverage (such as magazine articles) or have an entry in one of the printed books or encyclopedias about folk music, such as the 2 comprehensive volumes by Martin C. Strong (although his third one, covering Celtic music, regrettably never appeared), and/or pass the "2 or more albums on a "respected" label" test, so I think the field is pretty wide open for wikipedia expansion in this regard, and, again as previously stated, would encourage further interested parties to "have a go".

Regards to all - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 03:19 PM

Following on from the above, anyone interested in what I *have* contributed to Wikipedia recently will find the list of my last 1,000 contributions here and here ... not much about folk music, quite a lot about Shirburn Castle (and dingoes)... a psychologist would not doubt have a field day analysing my thought processes.

- Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 04:40 PM

Tony , it is not a question of it being your sole responsiblity, or your fault, nor is it your fault that wikpedia is not comprehensive. but it does not alter the fact that it is by its nature amatauerish [that is not a reflection upon you or your work.
It is not comprehensive, it is amateurish[ compiled by unpaid volunteers]
As an encyclopedia it is not always reliable and as a comprehensive guide to the uk folk revival it is lacking and of an amateur nature .
it does no favours imo to the professional performers who are omitted because of its outdated rules, yet it pretends to be representative ITIS NOT
Professional perfomers have suffered for many years at the hands of amateurish reviewers, fortunately we are no longer at the hands of some of the folk magazine reviewers,
Wikipedia and its entries on uk folk artists are not comprehensive they are amateurish [the work of unpaid volunteers], it has outdated rules, it us pretentious and is lacking in content

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 04:52 PM

"The work of unpaid volunteers" does NOT mean it is amateur or unprofessional. It means people are taking time to post about things important to them and they may be professionals in their work hours. I know of groups of librarians and museum staff who have regular Wikipedia posting sessions to address this very issue. If you don't think the posts on Wikipedia are up to your standards, then post them yourself. And you will join the ranks of the passionate amateurs posting at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 05:49 PM

Dick raises the justifiable point about missing articles regarding arguably notable folk music performers, as indeed does the original poster in this thread (hence the thread title).

There does appear to be a mechanism to review such coverage, and possibly inspire contributions in the "missing article" space. The mechanism is via a WikiProject (Wikipedia project) entitled "Missing encyclopedic articles" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles). Under this project, an interested person can compile a list of topics (folk music performers in this instance) from a suitably "encyclopaedic" source (a suggestion, for pre-1993 acts at least, might be the "Guinness Who's Who of Folk Music"), as wikipedia links, which are then displayed in blue where an article with that name exists, and red if it does not (thus, a prompt for someone to maybe create it). For a non-musical example, see Missing encyclopedic articles/Encyclopaedia of the Viking Age. Such a list might go some way towards addressing concerns of non-comprehensive coverage such as expressed by Dick.

I might even create this list, if pressed, and no-one else wishes to volunteer their services. I do have the book mentioned, although if somebody wants to suggest a more up-to-date equivalent from their holdings, go for it (but then you would have to create the list...)

Of course all such resources have their own limitations. For example the "Guinness Who's Who" has an entry for Dick Miles (gasp) but not Lea Nicholson. But it would be another step along the road, maybe.

- Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 05:50 PM

I've often found my right to do something exceeds my ability to do same rightly.

“Mr. Wales* said that he gets about 10 e-mail messages a week from students who complain that Wikipedia has gotten them into academic hot water.

“They say, “Please help me. I got an F** on my paper because I cited Wikipedia” and the information turned out to be wrong, he says. But he said he has no sympathy for their plight, noting that he thinks to himself: “For God sake, you’re in college; don’t cite the encyclopedia.””
*Founder Jimmy Wales. **Bad

Wikipedia:Academic use - First sentence: Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic writing or research.

That's just for correctness. Complete, finished, all-inclusive &c &c aren't even up for discussion.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 02:24 AM

stilly.
the work of unpaid volunteers means it is amateurish, compiled by amateurS. it is also unprofessional because it is not comprehensive.,
What is even more annoying it is pretentious , that is it purports to be professional, it pretends to be something it is not or has not yet achieved.
In both senses of the word it is amateurish ,1. that is it is compiled by unpaid volunteers it is also at the moment only giving limited information about performers in the uk folk revival,2 it is not comptrehensive and overall unprofessional, it is unprofessional because of the fact it is not comprehensive,BECAUSE OF THE INFORMATION IT DOESNOT GIVE
As an encyclopedia it is not always reliable, therefore that aspect of it is also professional .
That does not mean that the content provided by Tony Rees is not accurate or of a professional standard. it means that it is lacking
because it is not comprehensive, and does not give a truly accurate reflection of uk folk performers .
this is to some exent the fault of wiki, with their outdated rules

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 02:58 AM

What I found when starting a page on William Main Doerflinger was that moderators may be experts on Wikipedea but not on the subject in question. I got a rejection, at first, with a curt "not famous enough". My immediate reaction was amazement. His son has an entry and from my "bubble" totally out of proportion to his father's status.

Fortunately I persisted, listening to sensible moderators' comments, and with threads in this parish. That's when Tony Rees (thankyou) noticed and did some fettling on the WMD page. That's the point, anyone can add so it could happen that someone else changes your additions, so be sure of your data.

FWIW I often find pages when searching, say villages, where I can add an external reference to. In some cases, links to my own websites where there is a connection of interest. Two I do regularly are an audio memories of old Stroud where I can target the particular village. Ditto benchmarks.mister.red or Milestones/Boundary Stones (particularly now in Lock-Down).
The way I do it is to: log in, "edit", look at similar things, copy, paste, modify. And each page must work similarly, because there are multiple methodologies, IME.

BTW Wiki uses "an" HTML but it is not like any other I have come across. But it is my way of thanking Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 03:01 AM

Who are the people who have set wiki up and make these OUTDATED rules re the uk folk revival?
Let us look at a prominent uk folk perfotmer who is missing from Wiki Nick Dow
Nick has done extensive folk collecting all over the uk from travellers and non travellers as well as his own recording and performing
as far as i can see from wiki criteria, his collecting would not warrant his inclusion on wiki unless he had recorded several solo albums on an independent record label. excuse me but what is more important collcting tradtional songs or recording on an independent label.
What are wikis priorities, that is just feckin daft. Nick probably has recorded on an independent label, but if he had not
attention would not be brought to his collecting because he would not be mentioned by wiki.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 03:03 AM

I can't remember adding it so maybe it was another 'Catter wot did it , but there is a link back to the 'Cat in the body of WMD's page. It is what the Web does best, connectivity.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 03:15 AM

ok let us now take Doc Rowe, what he has done, recording tradtions over many years is of immense worth , much more important than recording on an independent label , HE IS MISSING, AND PROBABLY WOULD NOT FIT ONE OF THEIR RIDICULOUS RULES AND CRITERIA.
WHO are these self appointed judges and what is their expertise on the subject, Yet they have pretentions to be providing a comprehensivesite on the uk folk revival. it is not the fault of contributors it would appear[ they are doing their best] but the fault of wiki itself.

before anyone come in with all guns blazing about bitching, just read carefully what i am saying, and what others have said and be realistic about the the limitations of wiki

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 03:34 AM

I don't see any reason why Wikipedia would reject an article about Doc Rowe. He's very easy to document from corroborated sources. It would be a fair bit of work to put it all together, though.

You don't need to be a web designer to create their content. You just need to be patient about checking and proofreading what you add.

I gave up on it because I tried editing pages where there was an entrenched culture of idiocy with a vested interest in misinformation. The worst I've come across was stuff about the hazards of chemicals. Recognition of hazard varies around the world, and Wikipedia sticks strictly to the toxic legal code of the US. You cannot report any adverse effect of a product except on the say-so of an American pro-industry "regulator". The fact that every other national safety organization on earth won't let the stuff be sold doesn't count at all. You get the same sort of issue with the biographies if litigious celebrities. But I can't see that often being a problem with folk-related info. Dave Bulmer maybe.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 03:39 AM

Hi all - I'm confident that Wikipedia WILL accept a piece on Doc Rowe, and I'm going to try and submit one this week. He has ample prior references on other pages, including his receipt of both the Folklore Society's Coote Lake Medal, and the EFDSS Gold Badge.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 04:52 AM

Like everything online, it's only as good as the material input by the alleged folk experts, so the various Wikis are totally arbitrary anyway.

Some of the material is certainly valid,but always down to personal preference- folk music has NOTHING to do with all this cult of personality- the music is what matters.

Who's in and who's out of a ridiculous pedia like this is totally irrelevant- get a life, the folk 'stars' who worry about such stuff are mainly a pain in the arse anyway- I'm sure Doc rowe doesn't give a monkey's.....

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 05:02 AM

The main difficulty I've had is providing evidence for events which were pre-internet. I created a page about a British computer software company, founded in the 60s and which I joined in '74. It was very well-known and a pioneer in several fields. But there is very little online to link to and the result does not do the subject justice.

I found that one of the trade journals of the day had been digitised so I was able to screengrab a few articles and photos. (I had to justify using copyright material.) But most is or was on paper and some is behind academic firewalls - or even an Official Secret. I had hoped that people I worked with would find and add to it, but that hasn't happened, and many of the potential contributors are now dead.

So if you're creating a page about someone whose reputation was made in those pre-internet days be prepared to research paper records, old folk magazines or whatever, and maybe to put that online, by scanning articles and finding a website that'll post them. You need links! Your own knowledge is no use, unless you publish a memoir or article online.

Or just accept that, however noteworthy, some people or subjects are not worth the effort of getting into wikipedia.

The wikipedia editors are terribly pernikety. Even uncontroversial statements such as where my company was based get tagged 'citation required'. Ignore them; don't let them get you angry!

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 05:13 AM

get a life ." i have a life, jim .
it involves playing music which i do every day going through tunes singing songs etc . I PRACTISE MY SONGS AND TUNES EVERY DAY recently i went busking in Bantry and was given a 100 euros.
folk music has nothing to do with cult of personality, i agree. it is about doing it and participating, keeping the tunes and songs played we are sopng and tune carriers
    but if people can get information and CORRECT UP TO DATE COMPREHENSIVE INFORMATION, that is good.
i am sure Doc Rowe would like to see his collected material available to more people.and publicised in a non commercial way

if wiki were set up correctly and did not have such contradictory rules then the work of doc rowe and the collecting material of nick dow would be available to more people, that has nothing to do with their personalities but to do with the MUSIC AND TRADTIONAL MATERIAL BEING available for more people to discover.
i dont know any folk stars that have contributed to this thread, they are people like myself who are interested in the music that is promoting tradtional music and tradtions AND LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE COLLECTED MATERIAL OF DOC ROWE AND NICK DOW IS PUBLICISED
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN PROMOTING THE MUSIC OF BUDDY HOLLY OR CLIFF PILCHARD THAT IS ALREADY DONE ELSEWHERE.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 05:18 AM

JimCarroll and Mike Yates would be another example of people who probably would not qualify UNDER THE PERNICKITY RULES OF WIKI yet surely their collected material and its publicising. is more important than if you have recorded on an independent label

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 05:46 AM

You'd have to be out of your mind to edit a page about Jim Carroll. Mike Yates wouldn't create problems but he's a bit niche too.

I looked up concertina stuff, starting with Regondi. He's there. The concertina page could do with more on the hardware and the social history. The information is available. (Perhaps Dick could try entering some of it?) But the page certainly doesn't need a list of all-Ireland concertina champions - that really is anorak central.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 06:19 AM

DaveRo, that's a really interesting/important point about the 'recency bias' of Wikipedia, re: the greater ease of providing references for topics that have been covered during the internet age.

They do seem to accept credibly presented book and newspaper, magazine etc citations without web links - but it's obviously much more intensive work, to find and note those sorts of sources.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 07:35 AM

I rather disagree. We all use wikipedia. Its a great facility.

I think maybe we should register our presence. Who we were, for future generations. what we thought, and what we did as consequence of that.

We were part of an important artistic movement. If ever you thought the folk movement capable of rising above factionalism, and this awful 'I'm right, You're wrong', this is a definite opportunity.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 08:23 AM

I agree, Big Al. Also, with the huge attention generated by sea shanties recently, it feels important for the information to be there, for those who may be newly seeking it.