BS: Why not just BAN Guests?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM

Portraying someone as racist is a favourite pastime, especially when there is disagreement over a point. It's sad really, which is why when someone tells me "Oh I've been posting on such and such a thread for X number of years" I treat that statement with several grains of salt. To be honest I'm really not very interested in what the poster, let's call him Mr Y, has done in the past, I'm more interested in the here and now. Banning 'Guest' posting? (in any forum, not just this one) Not a very good idea, you're only feeding the 'old guard' and making the place somewhat exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

And another thing, if you are a member you can use the mudchat. that is very useful if you are using a pc that doesn't have msn, like the Navy, eh Steve? oh i wonder if i should have said that. 8]

tee hee

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

The record of that thread thread.cfm?threadid=112423#2378987
speaks for itself. I only posted to that thread two times: on 01 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM and on 02 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM.

Therefore, Akenaton's statement is not accurate that after his comment about my suggested ammendment to another Mudcatter's post, "Azizi immediately started to infer that I had called her a racist".

My reason for alluding to that thread was to address the point that one person may see something as an attack and another person may see the same thing as stating her or his position. Perhaps Akenaton's posts on that thread and here may serve as confirmation for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:24 PM

"Finally, I want to thank those persons who posted comments on this thread that rejected the characterization of me as a racist. I very much appreciate your comments, not just my sake, but for the sake of visitors who may happen upon this thread and wonder not only am I a racist, but also wonder if the Mudcat community is accepting of personal attacks against its members."

Evidence for the defense M'Lud........

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

Just made some popcorn, am going to sit back and watch this and see how it pans out, it really quite funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:37 PM

The problem as I see it is we are all Guests...on this site...and which Guest has more right to be here than any other??? I have a name..most guests have a name....some already named people publish as Guests....etc etc .....Just accept the Cat for what it is eh? Let's cut the griping.....Some Guests have a lot to contribute,
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: happy wayfaring stranger
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM

My mudcat name means foreigner or traveller. I have spent my adult life living in working in countries where I am not a citizen, sometimes for years, sometimes just months or weeks.

I have often been deeply deeply touched by kindness and hospitality when I moved to a new place. People who extended open-hearted offers of friendship, or just strangers helping a stranger whose luggage was unmanageable. I had it easy with work permits, but in one country I befriended refugees and had a tiny glimpse of what it might mean to leave everything behind and then face unimaginable struggle. I have had people yell rude things because of my nationality, or extend a welcome because they thought I was related to their country.

Welcome and kindness offered and accepted just because the other person is a human being are always the most precious.--I hope I have kept the great circle of this kindness going through small gestures, but my own hospitality can fail when I am threatened or fearful.

It's not an accident that hospitality is a high value in many religions across the world, and in certain regions, among desert people, Indians, too, when sharing and trust were a matter of survival.

I am deeply touched by kindness to strangers the same way I am deeply moved by some music. It's not so much that 'some have entertained angels unaware' or that Elijah needs a place (though that may be), but that openness and kindness are part of shared humanity, as opposed to the gang-clique us versus them mentality.--Our species started in Africa, we are a diasporic species and we are all guests and travellers on the planet.

Rules: a place where the laws are enforced selectively is a tyranny. Even-handedness and consistency would make this a more hospitable place.

I am point-blank horrified by the suggestion of banning guests and by guest-baiting: both bespeak a mob mentality. Disagree with ideological poison, yes, but then let it sink into silence.

A forum was the place where citizens could speak publicly. If guests or anonymous posters bring provocation, why answer? See how fast the thread can fall off the page.

Welcome here kind stranger.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,OTOH
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:58 PM

The problem I see with the moderation here is the sheer childishness of it all.

There really is no reason to delete or alter ANY post. We are all adults here, and free to read or ignore anything posted here, just as we are anywhere on the web.

The censorship here is really unfortunate. It is patronizing to think adults who participate here aren't allowed to judge what they read for themselves.

The so-called "rules" are intentionally obtuse and confusing, because that allows those in power to create an illusion of necessity to censor.

The only time I ever saw anything here that need moderation, is when spammers have attacked the forum. When the site itself is under attack, then something must be done, of course.

But profanity and mean spirited posting is the sort of thing one tolerates, if they so choose, if they wish to participate on the web these days.

Sure forums were nicer places to hang out in 1998. But they weren't without jerks back then either.

At any rate, the time to prevent "old guardism" from taking over Mudcat is long since past.

The best moderated forums have a highly visible short list of simple rules. The names and contact information of the moderators is also highly visible and available for all to see and use, and they usually aren't participating members in the forum (they become too prejudiced about certain people, and can't act fairly and objectively, which is certainly the case here).




What adult can't take that sort of

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:01 PM

Amen to the highly visible short list of rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

OTOH:

Speaking as a veteran of the auld forum here, I suggest you may be mistaken; despite the fact that we are all adults, the sheer nastiness--and the hurt--that some people are capable of makes some constraints necessary. Because without them, the black smelly stuff gets higher and deeper, and the opportunity for interesting and lively conversation gets slimmer and slimmer.

But the constraints are really and truly minimal.

Use a consistent handle.

Do not attack people personally.

These are an outline of basic decency. Some folks in the past used their absence to act less than decent to their fellow human beings, with harsh, and ill-founded slurs, slanders, defamations, insults, and obscenities.

I do not feel we need to put up with such stuff, because anyone who seriously wants to up braid someone else can do so without breaking the rules of basic dialogue, if they are articulate, and if they are not they need to work out how to become so. This is not a stage for any half-baked bean-bag to prance on naked, spewing vitriol and hatred.

I have a great deal of respect for the balance and intelligence Joe Offer shows in doing the least amount necessary to maintain a fairly respectful environment.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:48 PM

If I was being treated equitably by the management, there wouldn't be a rule (that applies only to me) that I am not allowed to address or refer to other posters in threads. As long as that rule applies to me, it cannot be said that I am being treated equitably by any member of the management.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the Women's Center
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:49 PM

The "short list of simple rules" is in the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), as is all necessary contact information.

The FAQ, by the way, is just the first ten messages of the FAQ thread, up to the point where it says "The End." What follows is room for questions and discussion, which is cleaned up when I get around to it.

OTOH, I have to say that the tone of your messages is downright unpleasant, perhaps even mean-spitited. People are going to start pressuring me to do something about you, so that then you can become the martyr you aspire to be. I realize that you proably have some sort of divine right to be nasty and unpleasant, so I'll let you go for a while and see if you get it out of your system or get bored and go away.

So be nice, hey?

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:54 PM

On the subject of moderators being identified - if all they do is fix posts, I can't see any reason why they should be identified. If they have any greater authority than that, it seems only fair for everyone to know who they must defer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,OTOH
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:55 PM

Thanks for proving our point, Joe.

The FAQ "rules" are a confusing mess (which you ably demonstrated by qualifying it in your post by saying "...by the way, is just the first ten messages...".

The names of all the moderators and their contact information are nowhere to be found here.

You instead say "...all necessary contact information."

Contact information YOU deem necessary, not the forum users. To users it is a secret society. Posts get disappeared, no explanations given, no names or moderator presence to respond to--that is what people in this very thread complain about, and you choose to ignore in order to suit your own paranoid agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:56 PM

Was the 14 Jul 08 - 06:49 PM post addressed to me? If so, I would have to say that I am the only person in the Mudcat who is not allowed to be nasty and mean spirited.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 06:59 PM

Ah, I see that OTOH is an abbreviation of someone's screen name.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 07:14 PM

I suppose that there are people who just have to argue and/or disagree, but this, from the FAQ, seems perfectly clear to me:

"The Mudcat Cafe reserves the right to edit, move, combine, rename, or delete all threads and messages posted in the Forum. We will try our best to edit sparingly, but there are times when we may have to take some action to keep the peace, or to protect the interests of our community. Editorial decisions are made by Max, Jeff/Pene Azul, and Joe Offer, or under their direction. We follow principles and common sense, and see no need to have everything spelled out in some sort of pseudo-legal code. We don't allow hate, racism, stalking or other intimidation, or personal threats or attacks. We don't cater to chain letters or non-music advertising, and we expect people to use moderation when they advertise music-related things. We allow just about all sorts of discussion, but we draw the line when it's clear that an individual is flooding Mudcat with information - things like multiple "copycat" or interrelated threads, lengthy copy-paste messages of non-music articles from publications and Internet sources (one screen full of text is the limit - and remember that we encourage you to post the entire text of music-related information). If you regularly start more than one thread a day, you are quite probably starting too many. Please try to post to existing threads as much as possible, rather than splitting topics into a number of threads. I suppose there are a few other things we take action against, but I think this is a pretty good summary.

When we encounter individuals who cause us continual problems, we may take action to temporarily or permanently bar them from posting at all, but this rarely happens. Most of these are people who post just because they like to cause trouble. They may become very self-righteous in defending their right to "free speech," but it's usually quite clear what they're up to. On the Internet, they're called "trolls." We deal with them as we see fit."

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,Joe Offer, Still at the Women's Center
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM

Hey, I couldn't have said that better myself....

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,Trendy
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM

I can't agree that is clear, artbrooks, and it isn't a list.

Clear is this:

1. Be civil.

2. If you post more than once, please use a consistent handle.

3. Do not cut and paste from other web sites.

4. If you have questions or concerns, please contact one of our moderaters:

[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 07:39 PM

Did I say it was a list? BTW, the FAQ specifically allows cut'n'paste, as long as it is limited to one screen length.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: GUEST,Trendy
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 07:44 PM

Newsflash: no one reads the FAQ because it is obtuse, WAAAAAYYYYY too long, and has far too many exceptions to the rules.

Like the one you just mentioned, artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 07:45 PM

Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: Beer
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 10:11 PM

How about you members on this thread joining in on a more important issue. Go to this thread titled:   "Open Mike has lost her home and contents". This is what is important.
Guest are welcome to visit, join or participate.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Why not just BAN Guests?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 10:19 PM

And with that, I think it's time to end this thread. We've found through long experience that open discussions of editing policy are not fruitful or pleasant. If you have questions or suggestions, contact me privately by personal message or e-mail.

Oh, and we DO allow copy-paste of non-music items if they fill less than one screen. In addition, we ENCOURAGE copy-pasting of music information - links tend to die. Please be sure to cite the source of the information.
Thread closed.

-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]