Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)

Subject: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Hootennanny
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 04:26 AM

Interesting to hear this morning's BBC Radio's essential news programme signing off an item about the up coming Edinburgh festival. They had just finished an interview with an apparently well known violinist and she signed of the programme and I quote with 'the traditional Scottish lament Ashokan Farewell'. It was described thus twice.
I hope that someone at the BBC or elsewhere will put them right and ensure that the royalties go to the composer and not to the 'traditional arranged by arranged by' violinist.
In addition to that, the way she performed it it was almost unrecognisable. But I guess that is down to personal taste. I prefer fiddle music.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 04:47 AM

Yes, Jay Ungar was the composer. It does have a traditional feel to it, so maybe Mr Ungar can take it as a compliment but he deserves to be recognised for composing it.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: Neil D
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 04:58 AM

Beautiful melody composed by American Jay Ungar. Used to great effect in the Ken Birns Civil War documentary, which by the way is the best thing ever to appear on television.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 05:02 AM

The way it was played definitely did not have a traditional feel to it.

I was reminded of the occasion when an old time fiddler was being interviewed and he was asked if he could read music. His answer was "not enough to do me any harm". Quite.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 05:16 AM

I recently found out that I have been mispronouncing "Ashokan" for many years. Actually since the Ken Burns Civil War movie was released and I also bought the CD.

I thought it was pronounced 'Ash-o-kan, with the emphasis on the first syllable, but a fiddle player I met recently said it is pronounced Ash-'o-kan, with the emphasis on the "oh" sound. I checked a few online videos and I stand corrected. (In my defence, I am an Aussie and most of the place names here with traditional, First Nations history have an emphasis on the first syllable.)

Lovely tune.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,G-Force, not logged in
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 06:33 AM

Makes a change from it being described as Irish.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 07:01 AM

How could anything named "Ashokan" be Scottish?

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 07:10 AM

If that was Nicola Benedetti, who is director of the Edinburgh festival, she was interviewed by Laura Kuenssberg recently. She (Benedetti) said:
"I’ll play Ashokan Farewell by Jay Ungar, which is an American tune actually but really pays homage to the Scottish mythology and the Scottish sound. So, it’s a personalised arrangement of that tune."

Does it? Anyway, she knows who wrote it. There are several recordings of her playing her arrangements online, including with the Scottish Symphony Orchestra - which sounds like bad idea to me.

I too always associate it with Ken Burns' Civil War films.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 07:58 AM

Before they played it together on The Transatlantic Sessions Ungar told the great Shetland fiddler Aly Bain that he had Bain in mind when he composed it.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 08:09 AM

We must have played the damn thing hundreds of times in our pub sessions. In my view it doesn't bear the multiple repetitions it's often played with in various versions, many of which border on the dreary. Classic FM is not innocent! Nicola Benedetti played it well if not a little idiosyncratically. Mr Ungar is known to be solicitous as to getting the appropriate reward for the performances of his composition and I'm sure he'll get to hear of this!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 08:33 AM

"Pays homage to Scottish mythology"?!

It pays homage to Camp Ashokan at the Ashokan Reservoir, near Woodstock in New York State.

I quit listening to it. Not because I got sick of it, but because I don't want it to pall! It's that good!

BTW, Burns released a new and expanded version of The Civil War a few years ago. Even better than before.

(But not as good as his Vietnam War series!)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 09:17 AM

Yep, at our session we play it just once a year, usually at the Xmas party, so we don't wear it out. Playing it inspires a lot of warm feelings.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 10:08 AM

I only heard he play the first few bars as I was on my way out but, when she started, I assumed she was still tuning up. I much prefer the Jay Ungar version.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 12:21 PM

The first version of it I heard was a duet by the Northumbrian piper Pauline Cato and the fiddler Tom McConville, both on record and at a gig at Bodmin folk club when it was at the Garland Ox with Vic Legg running the show, so that dates it! Vic - now there was a man...

A version I can live with...

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Sol
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 01:20 PM

Great tune however, that 7th has always been 'the seller' for me.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 01:40 PM

Played almost daily on Classic FM. I'd love to hear it played on whistle and harp.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 01:42 PM

To be fair, one does associate slow airs much more with Scotland than with the USA, and this one could pass for Scottish.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 02:02 PM

It doesn't matter whether it 'could pass for Scottish'. It was written by a man who deserves credit for it.

I would hope he chases the BBC for royalties on this broadcast performance on the BBC, who know Rockall about traditional music anyway.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 02:08 PM

Steve Gardham, come to our regular music session and we'll play it for you on whistle, harp - plus fiddle, mandolin & Irish flute. :-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 03:16 PM

Guest, THE BBC does not pay royallties direct to artistes but to collection agencies such as MCPS and PPL in the UK and they will, have or should have the correct composer details.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 03:56 PM

how can that be if they don't even know who wrote it- or is describing it as 'traditional' another moneysaving wheeze from this discredited organisation?

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 04:41 PM

Guest,
When the play lists are submitted to the collection agencies they are the people who decide how the money collected in licensing fees is distributed to writers / publishers / performers.

I don't know to which discredited organisation you are referring.
"traditional arranged by" is used by a performer so that they can be paid as arrangers when using non cop material.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 05:09 PM

And Guest, perhaps you should re-read what DaveRo said on Date: 30 Jul 24 - 07:10 AM.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 05:15 PM

Helen,
If you're Hase Waits I might just do that.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 05:23 PM

No, I'm a frayed knot! :-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 03:25 AM

Having said that Benedetti's arrangement of Ashokan Farewell with the SSO (which crops up if you google the combination) sounds like a bad idea I thought I'd better listen to it. It's on a 2014 album based on Max Bruch's Scottish Fantasy, Op. 46, which presumably accounts for the presence of the SSO.

Homecoming - A Scottish Fantasy
Nicola Benedetti (violin, fiddle), Phil Cunningham (accordion, piano), Ewen Vernal (double bass), Tony Byrne (guitar), Éamon Doorley (bouzouki), Duncan Chisholm (fiddle), James MacIntosh (percussion), Julie Fowlis (vocals), Aly Bain (fiddle)

BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Rory Macdonald (2014)
   
There are samples - including of Ashokan Farewell - here:
https://www.nicolabenedetti.co.uk/recordings-details/homecoming-a-scottish-fantasy

Curiously the last two tracks are not on the 2024 re-release, Ashokan Farewell and this:
trad.: Chan e caoidh Mhic Shiridh (It Is Not MacShiridh I Lament)
Ewen Vernal (double bass), Nicola Benedetti (fiddle), Duncan Chisholm (fiddle), Phil Cunningham (piano)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 05:19 AM

I'm not sure if DaveRo's quote is from her interview with Laura K or on the performance in question.

But that particular quote strikes me as only too typical of the current fad for pseudo-academic analysis of a simple and brilliant tune by a classical musician, almost as an apology for playing such a low brow tune, unfortunately written by a non-classical composer.

It is no more Scottish than Irish or Galician or Welsh or sri Lankan- it's just more pretentious crap with no basis is fact

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 05:31 AM

Evan Stover arranged "Ashokan Farewell" for Waltz of the Wind, the second album by the band Fiddle Fever, 1984.
Fiddle – Matt Glaser, Russ Barenberg; Fiddle, Mandolin – Jay Ungar; Fiddle, Viola – Evan Stover; Guitar – Molly Mason, Russ Barenberg

He took it with him when he joined Walt Michael & Co, who were very welcome guests at the Girvan Folk Festival.
Walt Michael - hammered dulcimer/pencil, Frank Orsini - fiddle, Evan Stover - fiddle/viola, John Kirk - bass (I think!)

In 1984, filmmaker Ken Burns heard "Ashokan Farewell" and was moved by it. He used it in two of his documentary films: Huey Long (1985), and The Civil War (1990), which features the original recording by Fiddle Fever in the beginning of the film. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 07:56 AM

GUEST,patriot wrote: I'm not sure if DaveRo's quote is from her interview with Laura K or on the performance in question.

It's from a transcript of "Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg" broadcast somewhere on the BBC on 21st July 2O24. She discusses arts funding in general, the Edinburgh Festival in particular, and seems to end with her playing this piece. Reading it again, I don't think that when she said "[it] pays homage to the Scottish mythology and the Scottish sound" that she was referring to Jay Jungar's intention - the tune's origins are well known and I sure she knows them - so much as the way she interprets it.

I don't know on what BBC program the OP heard the remark about it being traditional. Since the Kuenssberg interview was recent I thought it was possible that the performance was the same.

Benedetti has appeared on the Transatlantic Sessions and there a video of her and Aly Bain discussing their music, if you want to find out more.

Looking though some of the links prepended to this this thread, this morning, I came upon this quote, attributed to Jungar:

Ashokan Farewell is written in the style of a Scottish lament or Irish
Air. I sometimes introduce it as, "a Scottish lament written by a
Jewish guy from the Bronx." (I lived in the Bronx untiI the age of 16.)

From this post.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 11:27 AM

I once was hiding out from the rain at the Old Songs Festival a LONG time ago, and Jay Ungar was there. I told him I could immediately play it, the first time I heard it (in a session - never saw the Ken Burns program before then). I told him it felt like he plucked that tune out of some collection of all the music that ever existed. I still feel that way - the tune was just always there. It's probably the same reason some people are sick of it the first time they hear it. (Haha)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM

The programme that I was referring to was BBC Radio 4's TODAY programme. It was just before 9.00 am. I had just woken up at the end of an interview about the Edinburgh Festival the violinist said what tune she was going out with at the end of the interview and the announcer introduced it as I quoted above.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 12:13 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0021hbv

The comments are made by the interviewer, starting at 2:57:40

Certainly a somewhat free arrangement!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 12:15 PM

How could anything named "Ashokan" be Scottish?

Ashoka in Glasgow

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 01:16 PM

Guest, the original place of composition is well known for
Ashokan Farewell

"'Ashokan Farewell' /?'?o??kæn/ is a piece of music composed by the American folk musician Jay Ungar in 1982. For many years, it served as a goodnight or farewell waltz at the annual Ashokan Fiddle & Dance Camps, run by Ungar and his wife Molly Mason, who gave the tune its name, at the Ashokan Field Campus of SUNY New Paltz (now the Ashokan Center) in Upstate New York.[1]

"The tune was used as the title theme of the 1990 PBS television miniseries The Civil War.[2] Despite its late date of composition, it was included in the 1991 compilation album Songs of the Civil War."

Your link refers to an Indian restaurant in Ashton Lane, Glasgow so it isnot relevant to the discussion of the song.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 01:18 PM

Sorry this bit "/?'?o??kæn/" is the phonetic pronunciation characters which did not copy into plain text. Please ignore that bit or look at the Wiki article for more info.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 02:58 PM

əˈʃoʊˌkæn

(You need my Browser Tools addon ;)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 06:22 PM

Thanks DaveRo, I'll check it out. I've been using your excellent Linkmaker since you recommended it to me.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: leeneia
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 10:32 PM

I play this on my 107-year-old piano in the key of D. It has an Am in the middle of it which makes the song sound so American, and so 19th-century, that every time I get to that measure I see a huge green landscape with a little pioneer town with one steeple nestled between two hills.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 08:02 AM

(A different guest)

Great tune however, that 7th has always been 'the seller' for me. (Sol above)

Yes, great tune. My "however" would be that the single late-appearing flat 7th is characteristically Scottish and for me the tune maybe wouldn't sound all that Scottish without it.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 08:38 AM

Whether it "sounds" Scottish to some and whether it "is" Scottish in fact are two different and independent questions.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 09:27 AM

I hear elements of Scottish and American music in it and in the B section it sounds a bit like themes from Hollywood TV Westerns in the late 50's and early 60's.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 07:44 PM

That Cnat in the B part is a pig for harmonica players. On a low D diatonic it's next to impossible to play with a bend or an overbend at all cleanly, especially as it's a long note. I have to resort to my D chromatic, which is what is less desirable. I can't agree that it "sounds Scottish." Scottish tunes might resort to mixolydian mode, but they don't usually chuck a nefarious accidental into an aeolian mode tune. Not usually... ;-)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Sol
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 04:51 PM

Quote from recent Guest -" Yes, great tune. My "however" would be that the single late-appearing flat 7th is characteristically Scottish and for me the tune maybe wouldn't sound all that Scottish without it. "

I'm sure we're both referring to the same 'tension' note. I said '7th' as I would when referring to a guitar chord. It is a flat 7th, as you say.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 05:14 PM

Fair point from Steve Shaw maybe. It would only be a flat 7th if it was mixolydian, which is where the later-appearing 7th often figures. Without those other unstressed non-flat 7ths maybe it would sound more Scottish.

Still a great tune though.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,German Bight
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 02:24 AM

The BBC once again displays its Ignorance.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 04:58 AM

I wonder what I was thinking when I wrote this! It should, of course, be guitar. Nobody made fun of it, thank you.

[Evan Stover] took it with him when he joined Walt Michael & Co, who were very welcome guests at the Girvan Folk Festival.
Walt Michael - hammered dulcimer/pencil, Frank Orsini - fiddle, Evan Stover - fiddle/viola, John Kirk - bass (I think!)

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,German Bight
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 07:29 AM

Richard Mellish, airs are common in the Irish Tradition, as well as the Scottish Tradition.

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 07:05 PM

I had heard the quote given by DaveRo above, about it Jay Ungar (not Jungar!) himself saying that he wrote it “in the style of a Scottish lament”. As a Scot, I don’t find it particularly Scottish sounding, and that one Cnat doesn’t really make it a mixolydian tune, if you compare it with our many “mix” pipe tunes.
I do think it is a lovely tune, but needs to be played slowly - yes, as a lament - with lots of expression, rather than romped through mechanically as a swingy waltz which happens in too many pub sessions.
I was somewhat gobsmacked to hear a different arrangement the other week, when it was put into an up tempo 4/4 almost reggae rhythm: almost unrecognisable: I hope Jay got his royalties for that!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - [NOT] A Scottish Lament
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 08:13 PM

I made a mistake in my last post, referring to "Aeolian" when I meant "Ionian!" Thanks for being such a restrained bunch in not correcting me out loud! Anyway, in every regard except for that C natural, it's an Ionian mode tune (OK, so the tonic is D, not C, you purists!) and, after my decades of having to play it, it wasn't until I read this thread that I've heard it described as "sounding Scottish." Not to my ear it doesn't!

Subject: RE: Ashokan Farewell - A Scottish Lament (??)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 03:28 AM

GUEST,German Bight said
> Richard Mellish, airs are common in the Irish Tradition, as well as the Scottish Tradition.

Indeed they are, but this discussion has been about how Scottish or not the tune seems: no-one has suggested it could be Irish.