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What is it with the English?
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Ella who is Sooze Date: 06 Jun 00 - 05:15 AM Well Shambles I am glad that is not just me who finds the Angel session to be just so too. Well learnt my lession, won't be going there again. I got talking to Steve Morris at the old road tavern, he was v nice and friendly. I liked that pub alot, and the French session was good too. Liked the hurdy gurdy though not quite sure if I understand it though. Had a thought too, that as the pub was fairly packed that the only person who had THE most room was the person who was playing a whadyou ma call it big zither thingyummy that he was hitting with hammers. Anyway, I am going to go next year I enjoyed the Old Road Tavern, and the Italian cafe round the corner does the best pizza's I have had since I was in New York. Ella |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST,KingBrilliant Date: 06 Jun 00 - 05:38 AM We were at Chippenham, and it was great. Really nice atmosphere, and a total lack of officiousness from the stewards. I reckon there was a fair amount of English being sung in the singarounds etc. Didn't get to the 'English' session, but I think we were sitting outside of it (in a rare bolt of sunshine). Sounded fine to me. I don't agree that the English are bland - I'm bleeding well not! Some English playing/singing may be bland, but you'll find some of that in all cultures. Throwing a mantle of blandness over us might make someone feel superior - but it don't make it true. Chippenham highlights for me were: The Shanty singing which was placed in context by a mock voyage (ok - I make it sound naff, but it was excellent). Hanging Johnny were especially superb. Sara Grey (ex-pat American living now in Skye)- talk & song about North American logging songs. She is amazing!! The Mrs Ackroyd band - but then I have a huge soft spot for Les Barker. But it was all wonderful. PS. I didn't think the Morris geezers were overly serious. Kris
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST,MikeofNorthumbria Date: 06 Jun 00 - 07:54 AM Hi! I've just stumbled on this thread, and found it fascinating. Many of the problems discussed in it have been bothering me for a long time. For further thoughts on the matter, see my article "England, whose England?" on Rod Stradling's Musical Traditions web site - http://mustrad.org.uk/ - where you should find much else that's of interest, if you haven't visited it before. And on the subject of The Wild Rover ... many years ago, I got so fed up with being asked to do it that I composed an antidote. It goes to the same tune ... I've been a folk singer for many a year, And all round this country I've played for my beer, But now I'm retiring, though I've no gold in store, And I never will sing The Wild Rover no more. And it's no, nay, never (etc)... will I SING ...(etc) I went into a folk club I used to frequent, And said to the doorman "Me money's all spent" He said "I'll stand you a pint, as I have done before, If only you'll sing The Wild Rover once more." (Cho) I pulled my guitar out, and tuned up each string, Then took a deep breath and got ready to sing, When a voice from the back shouted out this request - "Won't you give us the chorus we all love the best." (Cho) I'll go back to the Labour, confess that I'm beat And look for a job sweeping muck off the street, And if I can find one, as I have done before, I'll be b*******d if I sing The Wild Rover once more! (Cho) Cheers, Mike
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Jun 00 - 03:30 PM Good point Hermione. But I think, unless you claim to be a direct descendant of Edward II (unlikely) that the treaty he signed at Leake in August 1318 (arranging for royal acts to be subject to a council one member of which was to represent the interests of the house of Lancaster)rather gave power to the aristocracy as distinct from the Crown or the peasantry. The period the aristocracy regret, surely would have been the industrial revolution with the rise of power of earned, rather than inherited wealth and, ultimately, the beginnings of steps towards the creation of a house of commons. One other thing you say is also interesting. You mention Grantchester. My Greek was always awful at school, but yes I did feel a slight touch of Rupert Brooke about your verse - and none the worse for that, although "Ghosts" is my favourite. But to return to this thread, what does your claim that "English" is the badge of inherited priviledge have to do with the lack of assertiveness of less priviledged English of their own tradition? As the folklore historians say, "Can it really be supposed that, alone in Europe, the English peasant did not give rein to his feelings in spontaneous and non-formalised music?" And if not why should it be supposed that the folk memory in England is any less potent than elsewhere? |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Osmium Date: 06 Jun 00 - 04:24 PM A couple of points from a bit English/French/Irish person who struggles to play Irish music; The way in which Irish music is played has and is changing markedly with time, listen to the old calieh bands and then the same tune by, say, Sharon Shannon. The way in which its played changes from county to county; try polkas in Kerry or a Highland in Donegal. We are led to believe that in the early part of the century Irish folk music nearly died; vis "Bringing it all back Home". The fact that some very good musicians worked very hard at keeping it alive made the difference. If english folk is to survive then I have a feeling it needs more good musicians playing and updating it (the way its played) so that it sounds beautiful to the modern young ear. It wasn't so very long ago that a musical scale had only five notes. If we (the english) persist in playing the music in the "old" style because that's what's right - it think it will die and so to hopefully will the (nasal/tuneless) singing that oftime goes with it. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Sapper_RE Date: 06 Jun 00 - 04:51 PM The Irish are allowed to be Irish, the Scots are allowed to be Scottish. The Welsh are allowed to be Welsh, But the Engilsh MUST be British. Can't remember where I heard that, but we are constantly being told that to be English is to be racist. A group of people in a Birmingham pub last St. George's Day started singing "There'll always be an England" and were kicked out!!! During the '70's, Camden Council, within who's environs C. Sharp House, the HQ of EFDSS lies, tried getting the Educational Charity status of the organisation rescinded. Why? Because being the ENGLISH Folk Dance and Song Society, they were racist!!! I can not think of another country where the national customs and traditions are denigrated so much by the so called intelegensia as they are in England. Sapper |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Jun 00 - 05:43 PM Which is where the "Post-Imperial Guilt" mentioned earlier comes in. It is a phenomenon of the priveleged classes, on the whole; the Working Class (or whatever you choose to call it) by and large does not have such feelings, having never been master of an empire, but rather, that empire's first colony. As I said in other words earlier, the intelligentsia (in Britain generally, but particularly in England) have long looked to cultural models that are not nationally-based, and the education system has tended to reinforce this. We have a situation, then, where ignorance of (and perhaps contempt for) "folk" culture combines with a strong tendency to assume that attempts to define or reinforce "Englishness" must be racist, in function if not also in intent. Hence the Camden example; I don't remember that particular case, but in practice it wouldn't have got very far. The EFDSS, for all its faults, has never been a racist organisation: "English" in that context means simply "occurring in England". There is a good deal more to be said, but just now, I think it's time to go to the pub. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jun 00 - 08:53 PM Well, for me it's "British" that has the overtones of imperialism and so forth. As Malcolm says, English just means belonging to a geographical area. British has all kinds of sinister associations. There are all kinds of situations where the Union Jack spells trouble. The English flag of St George doesn't so far carry that sort of baggage.
And it's good to see you here MikeofNorthumbria - stick around and get registered, so you can use all the facilities. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:49 AM I didn't really want to go into all of this nationalist stuff too much as I think the only hope for the world is when we realise we are all one species on one planet. The opportunity to disagree with a McGrath however, is irresistible and demonstrates the difference between having a clear national identity and not having one for reasons identified by Sapper and Malcolm above.
Kevin says "Well, for me it's "British" that has the overtones of imperialism and so forth. As Malcolm says, English just means belonging to a geographical area. British has all kinds of sinister associations. There are all kinds of situations where the Union Jack spells trouble. The English flag of St George doesn't so far carry that sort of baggage".
I pretty much believe the complete opposite to that.
Kevin I know you strongly identify, with the geographical area where you live, Harlow, which is in England. Do you consider yourself then as belonging to it and to be English? I suspect not.
I think it depends on when you are born in England too. When I was growing up, what was left of the Empire was now to be called the Commonwealth. Looking back I feel that I was very much affected by the guilt of Empire. I was educated with and had friends who were Irish, Polish, Hungarian, Indian, Chinese and so on, all now permanently resident, in addition to the Scottish and Welsh. It was not considered that the latter were English but we were all could be British.
I would suggest that the "sinister overtones" associations with "British", pre-date the more positive association (or at least damage limitation) with the concept of the United Kingdom, that a lot of my generation do. That is not to say that the sinister aspects were/are not still in evidence, during the period I describe.
As to the flags, The use of the Union Flag never prevented the English from being blamed for worst excesses of Empire and he worst elements will be attracted to whichever flag is used. The European Football Championship starts this Saturday. The same elements that made the Union Flag spell trouble will now wrap themselves in the flag of St George and do the same. At least the rest of the UK will not now be blamed.
When football trouble abroad flared up, the media would have no hesitation about saying Scottish fans but would refer to British fans when they were clearly English fans that were causing trouble. I speak as an England football supporter, resident in Scotland for many years, who had to listen to England v Scotland matches with a Scottish commentator. …..If you think English commentators are biased, try listening to a Scottish one.
There was a TV programme this week about the build-up to the England v Scotland qualifier to theses Championships. It just used the views of the supporters and was very informative because of that. Despite the attempts of the media to build it up to be a 'battle', it was seen by most of those in the programme as a game of football. I do understand the view of the UK from the non-English members but I do regret that we may have now 'thrown the baby out with the bath water'. I for one do not look forward to all the implications of the expression of a narrow English nationality in our now multi-cultured society. I think we should tread very carefully indeed. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Ritchie Date: 07 Jun 00 - 07:42 AM Yes, Shambles, a lot of good points there. I also saw the C4 programme, which I thought was very well produced and presented. Being from the North East,Hadrian could have easily decided my birthright and gave me greater affinity with the 'Scot's'. You could see from the programme the passion that our friends north of the border had, even the drunk at the end singing 'floora scotland' in trafalgar square had the decency to say to the cameramen 'Hey take care'. A point was made about the disrespect shown to the National Anthemn and it seemed that the 'English' thought it belonged exclusively to them.I now think of myself as European....tomorrow the world. regards ritchie |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Brendy Date: 07 Jun 00 - 07:50 AM The melody of 'GSTQ' is used for the 'King's Song' here in Norway. Not quite the National Anthem, but played at official engagements that the King (Harald V) attends. B. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:56 AM You're right Shambles, I'd resist the label English for myself when it comes to nationality - but "British" even more so. And the geographical entity I identify with is, of course, Harlow.
As for the Union Jack and the Cross of St George - I find it hard to see the Union Jack without being reminded of people waving them as they tried to get at us on a Civil Rights march in Northern Ireland years ago. Or National Front thugs trying to come into Harlow. Or Maggie Thatcher. St George's Cross for me in the first place means the flag they fly on C of E churches when I go to church fetes, soccer thugs notwithstanding. It's a modest looking flag, which the Union Jack with it s flashy design is anything but.
As for "the UK" - the only time I use that is when my comoputer compells me to. If they'd revert to the older usage and call it "United Kingdoms" it'd be a bit better. (And since that only changed when the Scottish Partliament was abolished, now would be an appropriate time to revert to it.)
But "the UK" is a funny concept - the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands aren't part of it (though the comoputers don't know that, I believe). And what is supposed to happen when the monarchy gets abolished? I suppose they could keep the initials and call it the United Kindreds", which sounds like something out of Tolkien. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:41 AM Kevin.
Well I do take your point about the flags. It is about personal association of course but I doubt if the 'infidel' will agree with you abut the lack of a troubled association with the Cross of St George. Was this not the symbol that 'The Crusades' were fought under? That was a little more than a 18-30's holiday trip to North Africa. It was not an exclusive English planned trip I accept. It was hardly a hopeful start to joint European ventures either. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt Date: 07 Jun 00 - 01:31 PM 'the plays the thing' - and frankly so is the music-can't say I am interested in where it comes from -I tend to sing traditional english music because I like the sound and the pace not because of what it is or where it came from - pretty much the same philosophy as I use for liking or disliking people really. perhaps the songs that should survive are those that aren't so easily identified like that popular Irish song Fiddler's Green which is actually from Lincolnshire. Tradition song is all very well but its a little like the royal family --in danger of losing it's relevance -take for example shanty festivals -full of folk singers but how many living breathing fishermen? none. Music shoud move on, become less nationally defined and opened out to others-(I do draw the line however, when someone asked us if we knoew any Bon Jovi at our Sunday session!) |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Llanfair Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:03 AM This is the first time I've read this thread through, and it's a very good one. A couple of points spring to mind; The powers that be at the Beeb should see this thread. Perhaps then they will think about a modern equivalent of the radio for schools programmes that many of us learned our first folksongs from. Kids won't develop the interest if they aren't exposed to the music, and us folkies can only produce so many offspring!! There really is no such thing as exclusive "Englishness". This island has been invaded at regular intervals since man first stood upright. The only thing we can be certain of is Hybrid Vigour. Hermione...you are wonderful, I hope you post often. I had my first wedding reception at Wythenshawe hall, the Tattons haven't lived there for donkey's years. Oh, and we call them "lamp posts" not poles, and i think the "Lodge" is an american concept, though I'm not sure. Hwyl, Bron. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: sledge Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:40 AM In defence of MORRIS In a time when most music and dance that people are exposed to is dependant on slick marketing it is not hard to see why Morris is looked on as a quaint anachronism. But quaint or no it is an important part of English heratige and is worth preserving, more power to the drinking arms of those who do so. Q:Why did god invent line dancing A:to give Morris dancers someone to laugh at |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST,Hermione Heyhoe-Smythe Date: 08 Jun 00 - 09:23 PM Oh Bronwyn, dear girl (what a delightful name!), I'm afraid that this is what we have been talking about, my child. One never uses a 'post'. How vulgar. Simply unthinkable. Not the English Way, I'm afraid. Poles, dear. Poles! And as Reggie is The Provincial Grand Master, a more worshipful master you have never met Bronwyn, I can tell you, I think, perhaps, you may be thinking of some sort of other Lodge. Although I can't for the life of me think what that might have been. Oh, well. Sorry for any confusion caused, Richard. I naturally assumed that this date was engrained in all of our collective psyches. Indeed, Richard, grave news. Grave news indeed, Richard! Well, I do like our little chats, Richard. And now Bronwyn. How splendid! :) H H-S |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Llanfair Date: 09 Jun 00 - 11:39 AM Thank you for putting me aright, Ma'am, I will not make that mistake again. May I respectfully suggest that you spell my name correctly in future Po.........er......poles to this forum. Wyn in Welsh is male, Wen, female. I am Bronwen. I realise that Welsh is a barbaric language that your family, friends and ancestors almost stamped out 100 years ago, purely because they didn't like the natives saying things they couldn't understand, but it is still with us, and that is my name. (Deep, respectful bow) Good-day to you Ma-am, mochyn saesneg, Hwyl, Bron. |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 09 Jun 00 - 12:03 PM Usually, I don't go along with that particular Welsh remark, but here I think it is richly deserved. It doesn't help when one only has what is ostensibly the same language to use. It was a dreadful day when that irritating minority decided to abandon Norman French and learn English, though I notice that their command of it can still be weak, since they feign an inability to understand any version not spoken in Kensington, and feel it is necessary to bellow to get their point across. Just try living without the peasants, ducky. You'd soon find out who or what the English are. Nancy Banks-Smith, the TV reviewer in the Guardian answered the question of why the Industrial REvolution happened here by referring to a program in which scientists made a radio with a saucepan, barbed wire, a galena crystal and some copper wire. Another program referred to the way that medieval wars were really won by the engineers. Don't make the mistake of thinking the flashy parasites are the real thing. Just ignore them. We do. Penny |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 09 Jun 00 - 12:43 PM Iachyd da Bron. (I'm only Welsh by marriage) I do sympathise, coming from an even more maligned race displaced by the Romans centuries ago. We still have our own style of music which we play on our own version of the pipes (not the kind you blow into) and we have some tunes and songs dating back to the early 1800's! who do these soft southerners think they are Hadaway ye humpybacks! |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: JulieF Date: 09 Jun 00 - 03:24 PM Ive been very, very busy for the last few days - we've got a major update going in, so I've not had the chance to read this - and I know that I really should start another one now its got to this length. Anyway --- From the point of view of a Scot living in england can I take up several points :- First Nationality. It has always got right up the noses of the Scots when English fans of any event have misappropiated the British Flag and National anthem - Not that we want them but there not uniquely theirs ) sorry will break as I think I've lost my link Julie |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: JulieF Date: 09 Jun 00 - 03:36 PM I don't know how the hell that happened - I thought I was on-line and then my mother rang sio I wasn't. Still --- I really have no problem with the english reclaimimg a national identity - St George's Flag - St George's Day - Jigoistic English songs as long as they are done with good grace. I think that Englishness has been so closely attached to the "British" establishment that it is a difficult job and many people prefer to resort to Regions such as Yorkshire or Cornwall. I find it a worrying trend that there now seems to be a bout of nasty anti-Englishness in areas of Scotland but perhaps this is a measure of the decline of other types of sectarianism which was prevalent in central Scotland. As for the English tradition - I find that difficult to assess. we brought our daughter up within our traditions - Scottish and Irish as we were living outside our countries- so she always knew the music, the folklore , the history and the fact that she was descended from Finn McCool. She did do English Country dancing at infant school and the Fiddle society has included many styles of music including English but other than that I can't comment on how to teach an English tradition. Julie |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST,Graham Pirt Date: 09 Jun 00 - 06:18 PM I've been out of touch for a few weeks but have just read through this thread - fascinating - I didn't know all this consideration took place about tradition and Englishness and all of the other items that have been discussed. I'm starting to feel guilty. I just sing songs if I like them and I think that I can sing them. Most of them end up sounding northern but that's how I speak. I'd better go off and find out more in case I'm doing it wrong! |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Jun 00 - 06:20 PM Naah Penny - I think the mochyn saesneg is probably a Yank taking the piss anyway. So nothing to be upset at, it's a commodity in plentiful supply.
The things about the English traditions is that they are very local indeed. The same is true with the Irish or the Scots, but there the experience of exiled communities has tended to build up a sort of commonality, and then that has been brought back home in a way. The English have dispersed all over the world, but they don't seem to have carried the English traditions with them in the same way, or used them as a badge of solidarity in a potentially hostile foreign environment.
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:39 PM McGrath is obviously right. Because nobody else has done it, I've made a new thread where we can continue this discussion, which has now grown much too big. English Tradition (part two). Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: Trace Date: 10 Jun 00 - 03:36 PM Frank, I couldn't have put it better myself! Of course having relinquised most of our empire, people have forgotten that in fact our folk music would encompass the music of a great many countries. I'm surprised that we havn't adopted Indian music into our folk music culture. The feelings that morris dancing brings to some people, has nothing on the way I feel about accordians and bagpipes. I could cheerfully throttle anyone coming within a mile of me playing either of those. Trace |
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Subject: RE: What is it with the English? From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 00 - 10:33 AM What is it you dislike about Accordions and Bagpipes? |
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