Folklore: guitars&irish music

Subject: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Gypsy
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:24 AM

Welllllllllllllllll, since there is not a public opinion title anymore, will use this one. What is the general consensus of the guitars place in irish music? Was in a session recently, and heard that only one guitar should be doing chords.........unlike our own sessions where we court guitars players, cuz there are always too many melody players. Is irish really just melody, with no backup? Any thoughts out there?

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM

Depends on which end of the folk music snob selection you find yourself in. I maintain that singing is as much a part of Irish music as is melody on instruments. But I have been to sessions where the second a singer opens a mouth the fiddlers and flutterers can't get up fast enough to get a beer or take a leak, (In wales that would be take a Leek.) That there is no great tradition of guitar use in Irish music doesn't help.

Play the guitar. Make yoyrself heard. Don't give into the folk music elitests out there that would have you believe that the guitar is good in its place and a traditional sessiun at it.

My rant for the day.

Don

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Declan
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:47 AM

There was some interesting discussion on this on at least one earlier thread, and I think I said most of what I have to say on this there. The guitar is relatively new in the Irish dance music tradition and some people think its out of place there. I disagree with this, but I'm not going to start calling the people who think that way names about it (although if memory serves me I might have used the word eejit in my post on the other thread).

I'm posting the link so you can see some of the interesting discussion on the other thread, rather than to discourage anyone from contributing to this one. As someone who mainly plays guitar as a backer in Irish traditional sessions this is a topic very dear to my heart!
Previous Thread

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:52 AM

If it sounds good...

There really is nothing else to say on the matter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

I like a guitar in Irish music but I believe the instrument poses the same problems as the bodhran and one of its own so I can understand suggestions towards restricting the number of guitars.

The first one is the problem of rythm. A good guitar player can often take a strong role in this department and melody players can take a lead from it. Even if we are talking about 2 or more reasonable players, settling the music into a grove becomes more difficult if 2 or more rythm players impose thier own slightly different interpretations and playing styles.

The second is the choice of chords. Again, assuming good players, while either of 2 players may come up with a nice set of chords that enhance the music, the 2 sets of chords together can clash.

I think you have to take things like this on the merits of the individual session and the players present rather than have hard and fast rules about numbers. Having more than one may or may not work and if it works for your session, enjoy it

Jon

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:10 PM

Exactly, Jon. If it works, enjoy.

To qoute Martin Carthy: It is utterly ridiculous to try to keep folk music pure because it has never been pure; it is a mish-mash. The idea of there being a folk pedigee is a joke.

If it sounds good...

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Declan
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:21 PM

I've been in sessions with up to 6 backers that worked perfectly well, I've been in others where two didn't work, and some where one was too many.

Guitars dont f**k up sessions, but sometimes their owners do !

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

In my experience, for the melody players it's mostly about the rhythym and a little about chordal context... many guitarists I've seen (some I've been) get the basic chords, but just don't feel the rhythym... But, as a lover of chordal constructs, I personally adore the interplay of chords, rhythym, and melody... and permutations turn me on! Two guitarists (or more) can work together, but compromise is necessary... interpretations ( and I believe that the chords are interpretations ) can be discordant, but not nearly as displeasing to me as hard headed ignorance of... "that's not how it goes"... comming from a closed minded and unresponsive guitarist/accompanyist... Could it be possible for accompanyists to 'follow the leader', just like the melody makers? ttr

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 01:49 PM

I've played bass guitar is sessions, and that can get some funny looks, like when I used to turn up with a solid and battery amp! As long as you know what the other accompanying player(s) will be doing, it can work.

I do think that guitar (or in my case bouzouki) accompaniment works best if the player knows the tune well enough. Just doing the three chords (or even two in minor keys!) isn't all there is to do. Mind you, sometimes that works well. The right hand work can be equally important to add something to the overall performance.

The main thing to remember (as TtR says) is that the tune is in the hands of the melody players. If it's getting sloppy, then the accompanists could minimilise (a chord every two bars?) to help pull it together.

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Gypsy
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:41 PM

Aye. ye'll notice, this was not OUR session. Our total feeling that too many melody players tend to sound alot like a music box..........okay, but can be boring right quick. We LOVE having rhythym players to make the sound full. And court guitarists to come to our sessions. Just wondering if what was said was an OPINION, or really some kind of set rule that we knew nothing about. Will check other thread, and thanks ever so much for the feedback!

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: jonm
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 03:21 AM

A good guitar player will change people's minds, just as a cr*p player will reinforce their prejudices. I play concertina and guitar, so I'm on both sides of the fence.

Playing melody, it's wonderful to have a rhythmic groove backing you - if played well, you can let the tune wander and always know where to come back to. However, it helps if one of your rhythm players takes a definite lead on the chords and structure.

On guitar, I'll generally pick the melody, a bass line or a combination until I've worked out the chordal accompaniment from the leader (assuming it's not just a three chord trick!) then I can join in and complement the rhythm. Several people have commented that this gives the tune a "build-up" over a number of rounds.

Encourage rhythm players, but most of all encourage them to play together as accompanists and listen to the tune!

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 10:22 PM

Doesn't it depend on the type of session? If it is an open, public session (illegal now in England I hear...) You really sort of have to allow anything. And , truly, people don't get better at what they do unless they are allowed to do it in context. If it's really excruciating, some good natured and thoughtful criticism can go a long way towards developing someone into a good sensitive player (as opposed to blasting them, embarrassing them in front of everyone and demoralizing them for life). I mean, what is a session for, anyway? Not EVERYONE can be as good as YOU, eh?

Subject: RE: Folklore: guitars&irish music
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:02 PM

'ats right. But was at a session where the guitars were told, "only one" when there were 4 out of 9 people playing guitar. Kinda cold, i thought