Songwriting: useful to find other songs?

Subject: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: Marion
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 01:12 PM

Hello gang.

Let's say you want to write a song about a specific topic, such as an event in history. You don't happen to know any other songs on this topic, but you suspect that they're out there.

Clearly it's useful to find out all you can about the facts of the event. But is it helpful to seek out other songs about it? Why or why not?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 01:49 PM

Hi Marion, I've written quite a few songs about historical events. I find it very helpful to research the event as much as possible. That includes historical facts, names of individuals involved, newspaper accounts, diaries from the time period, and certainly any other songs which might be out there.

When you start writing your song, try to find some small, specific aspect of the event. Hopefully, you will be able to relay the essential facts of the event while keeping the song centered on one individual's perception. It is important to have all the facts, but don't try to put them all in the song.

Stan Rogers and Eric Bogle are good examples. Find some of their historical songs and check out how they did it. Bogle's "Greenfields of France" & "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", as well as Rogers' "Billy Green" & "Take It From Day To Day" are a few to start with. Good luck,

Camai,
Mike

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: 42
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 01:51 PM

i think it's more important to go to primary sources and find your own perspective. i've only ever written one historically based song and it took me two years to take a fragment from a radio interview...talk to anyone who would listen to find more...and a chance flip through the TV stations on the remote which ended up on a film documentary on the very character for whom I had been searching all those years. I'm proud of the song because the memory was so passionate andintense that it mutated into a lyric without thought.

of course...what do i know?

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 02:06 PM

I vote no until your song is done..you will worry that it has already been done perhaps, or they said what you wanted to say or something. mg

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From:
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 03:49 PM

A friend of mine, Dave Stone, has written numerous songs about historical events in the Halifax and Nova Scotia area.

From what I understand of his process:
Typically he gets inspired, will start writing something down. Next he starts doing research. LOTS of it. He'll read all the historical facts about the event(s) from books written about the subject. If he can, he'll go look at the primary sources during this research. People who lived through it are some of his best sources.

Then he'll start crafting the song(s) which come out of the process of learning. He'll see some quote by someone, and that puts a picture in his head, and he'll write 4 or 6 verses. He'll read something quite compelling, and filter it down to 6 or 8 verses. After several iterations, it gets to a reasonable song length.

Case in point, he was at the Stan Rogers Folk Festival in 2003. During the week leading up to it, they held a series of song-writing workshops. In one of them, he was paired with Ron Hynes (yes, THAT Ron Hynes!). The teams were given some information about the local area, including some of the history and legends. One of them, about a young girl, struck a chord with the two of them, and that afternoon they came up with this song Anna Maria

It's quite touching. Dave has quite a number of historical songs. HAve a look at some of them

Birth of a Queen - Bluenose
Down Through Halifax
Halifax Explosion

Enjoy now.

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:47 PM

Contemporary songs from the time of the event are primary sources. And in some cases some cases modern songs can even effectively incorporate references to or quotes from earlier songs which were sung at or around the time of the event - as with "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", of course. It's also been done with "Tipperary", and others.

My feeling is that a modern song written about a historical event is generally better not to make out that it's an old song written then, but perhaps have a sense of looking back on it. (As is the case with "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda", of course.) Though a great song like Anderson's Coast doesn't do that - however it also doesn't try to copy the style of the time too closely. It doesn't feel "period", while at the same time it's true to the facts.

I wouldn't think that modern songs about a historical event would help specifically in writing another song (apart from the way you wouldn't want to write a too similar song). Songs about historcal events in general might be useful, of course, as giving hints as to how to do it, and how not to do it.

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: GUEST,Sttaw Legend
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 04:41 AM

Agree with all of the above - BUT I personally don't beieve you should listen to any other songs on the same idea. They may take you away from your original inpiration/concept and may even put you of from writing your own. There will be plenty of writtn information for you to research and develop your songs. Good luck

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: Willie-O
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 06:43 AM

Appears to be an even split on your particular question. I guess I would check out other songs to ensure I wasn't duplicating them.

The other thing I would say is, just because it describes a real event, doesn't mean it should be written as a straight narrative. It still needs a hook--ideally two kinds of hook, one being as Mike says, "some small, specific aspect of the event", another being a standard device like a strong chorus line, (God DAMN them all!) or a nifty turnaround.

One of my absolute favourite historical songs is Robbie Robertson's "Acadian Driftwood", which showed knowledge of the topic, passionate soul, and strong melody & chord progressions--nothing sacrificed.

And remember, you're not testifying in court. You don't have to tell everything that happened, put everything in chronological order, or even necessarily stick to the truth.

W-O

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:34 AM

I'd say, you have to stick to the truth, but not necessarily to the facts.

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: Marion
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:43 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, all.

42, sounds interesting - who was the person you did so much searching for?

George, I heard Dave Stone last year when he played at the Country Music Store in Toronto (which is, of course, the mothership of the Country Music Store in Cheticamp) and I liked his style very much.

Mike, I don't know many of Bogle's songs, but Stan is definitely one of my role models (I love Take It From Day to Day). Jed Marum is another person who I get ideas from on how to write true history - do you know his stuff at all?

McGrath, I don't really understand the distinction you're making between the facts and the truth.

Willie-o, testifying in court, eh? Telling the whole truth is clearly a temptation that must be resisted, but I think there's a lot to be said for nothing but the truth. I like being able to claim that certain of my songs are completely factual, or knowing it about other songs.

My experience has been that Mary Garvey and Sttaw Legend are right - finding another song can stifle your own writing process - so my instinct is to avoid it in the future. But I wonder a little, still, if I'm missing out by averting my eyes.

Marion

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 11:55 PM

I must be careful not to try and speak for McGrath - which he can do perfectly well himself - but I think I know what he's getting at. I see the truth as being what you try to get over in the song. It doesn't necessarily have to be a moral or a conclusion - just the big picture. The facts are the exact details - which can often contradict the big picture. In any form of writing, you will have to select the facts/information/details which you give. You don't have time to tell the audience everything. When I try to tell a story. I pick out the "facts" which I think best support the story which I'm trying to get across. Hope this make sense.
I have an open mind about listening to other songs on the same event. At the end of the day, I would be looking for my own angle on it. I don't know whether listening to other songs would help or hinder the process.

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 06:26 AM

"John was ten feet tall, and six feet wide and he had a laugh as loud as a train coming out of a tunnel".   Those aren't facts, but they might well be the truth about someone. "I have never regretted a thing I have done" - again, that might not strictly be factually accurate, but it could still be an expression of the truth about the person saying it.

Or there's a great song by an English singer, Jez Lowe, called The bonnie barque the Bergen.
In fact the name of the boat was the Burger or the Berger, but he changed it, to avoid the risk of people giggling about MacDonalds when he sang it. Facts are changed, but the truth remains. Any time you tell a story there are likely to be details that don't have to be held on to, if they get in the way. Characters can be combined, quotes can be put into people's mouths, that kind of thing. That's where stories differ from history.

Subject: RE: Songwriting: useful to find other songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 06:55 AM

Or, to look at it the other way round: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - factually accurate (on the basis of a legal definition), but not really the truth.