An ASBO for Morris Dancing?

Subject: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 07:37 AM

BBC Radio 4's literary quiz and parody programme The Write Stuff has just broadcast an item about someone getting an Anti-Social Behaviour Order (ASBO) for Morris dancing without a permit on the Isle of Wight.

What a disgrace! What an insult! Somebody should start a camapign to close down the BBC and start a thread about it. Oh, I just did . . .

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM

Diane,
In another thread you wrote:

They whinge because mainstream, "normal" people don't take them seriously, yet make no effort to respect tradarts themselves but arse around in stupid clothes* getting pissed and degrading the music. ………………………..

………..Meanwhile, the REAL musicians, the invisible ones that persons lost in Missouri (or even downtown Mitcham) don't believe exist are just getting on with playing, in sessions in people's houses, outside in rain and hail for Morris* or in pubs without poncy tea lights on the tables, as they have always done for decades.

* my emphasis with bold font

Morris dancers, (with their bells, ribbons, clogs, breeches and stockings, flowers on their hats, black faces, handkerchiefs and the like), tend to get equated by the general public (albeit wrongly) with stupid clothes.

I'm a bit confused. Are you for or against Morris dancing?

DC

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:08 AM

They say it's better than sex!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM

Nah, the stupid clothes are the swirly trousers, silly hats, odd smocks and colour crises worn by the people who follow them around - the sort of things that stay in the bottom drawer until the festival season, when the owners feel compelled to put them on as if to say "I'm a really eccentric free spirit when I'm not teaching/doing IT/selling widgets, I am - and this proves it."
But that's my view - Diane can certainly answer for herself.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:00 AM

So........moris dancers should perhaps dance in lounge suits?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

Yes, Cap'n.

Morris kit ain't "stupid".
And Cotswold dancers have wavers, not handkerchiefs.
And Border sides (and Molly and North West) can have blue or red faces as well as black. It's regional.

I think that makes it (Good Enough For) F*lkies 0          Morris 1.

But answer the question: should a Morris dancer risk an ASBO for dancing on the Isle of Wight? The BBC seems to think so. Is this an outrage?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM

'Morris kit ain't "stupid".'


Never been to upton ff then?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:04 AM

Diane

Perhaps you should turn your wireless off.

Too many things seem to upset you:-)

Dave

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dazbo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

It was part of a John Grisham pastiche and I thought it funny

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Megan L
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

strange when I googled this the only reference found was this thread.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:45 AM

That description rings a bell Captain Ginger :)

G

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM

I'd like to know more about the background to this story. There really isn't enough information, and I can't find it on the BBC news site now. Morris dancing itself isn't anti-social behaviour, but a particular group of morris dancers (or some individuals amongst them) could well have been behaving antisocially some of the time. Heavens, they might have been drinking...

Without a permit?
Morris dancing is specifically exempt from pub licensing regulations, but I suppose there might be local bye-laws applicable to any kind of street entertainment.

As I said, not enough information to make sense of this.

Anahata

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

LOL - it was a spoof of a John Grisham 'legal drama' novel where the contestants on the Radio4 literary quiz The Write Stuff were 'invited' to set a legal drama in his style in a quiet English solicitor's office :)

Load of Baldricks! :)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

Darren, I know it was a pastiche because I was listening to The Write Stuff and Anahata, I also know that you don't need a PEL to do Morris.
Maybe I just wanted to find out how many people read a tin of beans that has "stand in a pan of boiling water for 10 minutes" on the label and instantly jump up onto the cooker.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:31 PM

I'm off for a tear down the dotted line.

G

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM

Blimey.
Who thinks Morris is BS?
It bloody isn't.
This belongs back upstairs (on top of the cooker).

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:07 PM

"getting pissed " - now that could never apply to Morris Dancers could it?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM

Last night the Red Green show had Red's nephew (good gracious! What's his name?) dressed in Morris gear. I'll bet a lot of USers were confused... Colorful, though.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Cassy
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM

Can be a little black and white too

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM

Indeed

Giok

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

Then every one of these men he investeth with his liveries of green, yellow or some other light wanton colour. And as though that were not gaudy enough, they bedecke them-selves with scarffes, ribbons, and laces, hanged all over with gold rings, precious stones and other jewels; this done, they tie about either leg twenty or forty bells, with rich handkerchiefs in their hands, and sometimes laid across over their shoulders and necks, borrowed for the most part of their pretty Mopsies and loving Bessies... Thus, all things set in order, have they their hobby-horses, dragons & other antics, together with their bawdy pipers and thundering drummers, to strike up the devil's dance withal; then march these heathen company towards the church and church-yard, their pipers piping, their drummers thundering, their stumps dancing, their bells jingling, their handkerchiefs swinging about their heads like madmen, their hobby-horses and other monsters skirmishing amongst the throng... like devils incarnate... and so besotted are some, that they will not only give them money to maintain their abominations withal, but also wear their badges and cognizances in their hats and caps openly.

Philip Stubbes, Anatomie of Abuses, 1583


Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM

Memebr of the campign to re-instate Morris Dancing to the music section reporting for duty:-)

D.

---

Agreed. Can't quite figure out why it was moved to the non-music section.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

BTW - William Kemp seems to have his fair share of complaints from locals if you look at his 'Nine Dayes Wonder'.

D.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Sapper in Carlisle after a couple (or two) p
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM

Oh dear Dianne, I think it is time you learned to go and lie down in a dark room whenever you hear or read something that upsets you.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:55 PM

Diane Easby

And Cotswold dancers have wavers, not handkerchiefs.

Well! You learn something new every day. I started dancing the Morris in 1972 but I never knew that before.

Captain Ginger

Yeah, I always seem to have an odd smock left over at the end of the wash.

Bonnie Shaljean

Good Grief! Imagine what Philip Stubbes would be like if he signed up to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:00 AM

It looks like Morris dancers were wealthy men in those days then, dripping with gold and jewels.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: LesB
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM

Captain Ginger wrote......"Nah, the stupid clothes are the swirly trousers, silly hats, odd smocks and colour crises worn by the people who follow them around - the sort of things that stay in the bottom drawer until the festival season, when the owners feel compelled to put them on as if to say "I'm a really eccentric free spirit when I'm not teaching/doing IT/selling widgets, I am - and this proves it."
I don't know what Morris he has been watching but the nearest i've seen to that are a handfull of Border/Molly sides that might come close, but the majority of sides have matching & in many cases, sober kit. I can't say that the dancers are sober though.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:54 AM

I don't know what Morris he has been watching

Sigh.

The Cap'n isn't talking about dancers but is quoting, in part, my description of the GEFFish punters. He was correcting someone else who hadn't been keeping up or actually reading the thread.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

Nice one, Bonnie!

Was the programme broadcast on April 1st, perchance?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:08 AM

I think he's referring to their audience, Les.

(Not that I've been aware of Morris dancers particularly attracting this dress code which I guess may be seen if dancing at a festival but is not usual otherwise. In those situations, personally I'd thought pewter tankard = primarily morris/trad and some of the other dresses (for want of a better term) more "hippie" in tastes)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:58 AM

"Cotswold dancers have wavers, not handkerchiefs."

There's a "some" missing there. In 30 years of dancing I've alsways had hankies, the sort you can use for other purposes, never wavers. And I can't recall anyone in real life calling them wavers even if that's what they're for.

As for ASBOs, there's a reason East Saxon Sword wear orange!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:00 AM

Hmm, brings bizarre images to mind - Adderbury, Bampton, Sherbourne and Guantanamo? And cutting capers must be tricky in shackles!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM

Nope, Strad, it's genuine 16th-century rancour. I know Jon's opening comment in the post after yours was directed to Les, but one might apply it to Stubbs' comments as well!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

Re the swirly trousers et al: it's the fairies I can't cope with. Here's a little tip: few sights are more grotesque than that of a 40+ woman in a fairy costume and face paint. In fact, fairy dresses for the over-12s should warrant an ASBO. Just don't go there.

Happily, most proper folk festivals are largely free of this phenomenon these days. But if the footage of Cambridge on yesterday's Seth Lakeman programme was anything to go by, The Folk Festival For People Who Don't Like Folk Music still attracts geriatric fairies by the score. Maybe seeing themselves on telly will be the wake-up call they needed.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

Ruth Archer

Here's a little tip: few sights are more grotesque than that of a 40+ woman in a fairy costume and face paint.

You can't go to Towersey then. It's the 40+ men in a fairy costume and face paint that you need to worry about there.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

Ah - you'll be referring to the Barbies. My favourites were Joe Rusby as Thai Ladyboy Barbie, and Saul Rose as 70s Barbie (shudder).

It may have been ugly, but at least they knew it!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Technically - Cotswold Morris Dancers did not use - Handkerchiefs - but Neckerchiefs, and they were much larger than the modern handkerchief. They should be at least 30 inches square.
A Cotswold dancer, when standing with arms at side and handkerchiefs in hands - the tip of the handkercheif should be nearly touching the ground.
This is why in some traditions - ie. Adderbury & Headington, where there are complex hand movements, the handkerchiefs (or Wavers - as Diane says - although I also have never heard that term!) are held on diagonal corners.

Tim Radford
ex-Squire & Foreman of The Adderbury Morris & Kirtlington Morris.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

RTim

A Cotswold dancer, when standing with arms at side and handkerchiefs in hands - the tip of the handkercheif should be nearly touching the ground.

Mine did. I've got short legs.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

A Morris Offspring person told me to call them wavers. She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers in the animation I was making. I've sent off an official enquiry to the Fed for clarification.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM

No beards! There you go then - did she also say to make them slim?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

Diane Easby

She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers

It depends where you attach them.

Clown: Now Jove, in his next commodity of hair, send thee a beard!
Viola: By my troth, I'll tell thee, I am almost sick for one, though I would not have it grow on my chin.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

Neither Handkerchiefs nor Neckerchiefs do we have, but "Napkins" is their name. As RTim says, about 30 inches square, and nearly touching the ground when at rest.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM

Also - By the way - going back to what this posting was all about to begin with!!
I think it rather stupid that Morris in this day and age should be called an ASBO!
Unless - as someone suggested - they were doing something really stupid themselves!
And who knows with those Isle of Wighters!! (My Grandmother was born there!)

Also, as it has been said - Morris has been taken out of the Law relating to performance in public, but I have to say after being for years a supporter of The Labour Party - I think it amazing that such a law could have been en-acted by them?
It "Almost" makes me glad that I now live in the USA, where you have to get a permit for EVERYTHING! - The Land of The Free?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM

Re: the Great Handkerchief Debate.... I've also heard them referred to as 'snotters'. Charming. We at Abram call them hankerchiefs, which si what ours are.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM

Back on-thread: I don't think it's fair to class Morris as anti-social behaviour, any more than any other form of dancing. Mind you, it seems to have the strange power to inspire an anti-social reaction in some English people....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Why would anyone have two neckerchiefs? You only have one neck! And before you ask why have two hankerchiefs - one for each nostril!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

But it should be three - one for show, one for blow and one in the wash.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

From the Morris Federation:

"Common usage is wavers, same as 'sticking' instead of 'bashing'."
So there.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Cassy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

I'll check out the book

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

I am interested to know who in the Morris Fed. says - "Wavers"?
And it is as if over 40 years experience in Morris (mine) counts for nothing because I have not heard the term before!

I have to say - I don't really care. You can call them what you want; it won't stop me calling them what I want! And I think that is the way Morris Dancing should be viewed.

Tim Radford