Poor Performers & What to do?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Traitor
Date: 16 May 13 - 06:55 PM

I help run a club. Several of the leading organisers think they are good performers. Their last performance as support to a good performer was dire. Had they not been valued volunteers, we would never let them play again.
Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 16 May 13 - 07:59 PM

Traitor: that's a difficult one. It sounds as though you've got a committee-run club. There are problems with this. It has been suggested on Mudcat before now that the best way to run a club is by benevolent dictatorship - I think that was the expression - and I'm inclined to agree. In the old days - the bad old days, as some would insist - most clubs were run by a resident singer or group, and the club stood or fell by their efforts. If people liked the residents, then there would be a regular audience. If they didn't, there wouldn't be. It's natural selection. What to do in a case like yours, I'm not sure. Is there any way that they could be made aware of adverse comments from the audience, without making it sound as if it's coming from other organisers?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: matt milton
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:43 AM

@John Kelly: I only just looked at your new website. It's definitely a step in the right direction, much better looking than the slightly apologetic website you had before. But getting a website is only half the game - as you say, people don't come to it by accident. You have to tell them about it. Publicise it (and yourself) a lot.

Make sure you're on Bandcamp too. Send CDs to all the folk radio outlets in the UK and internationally (you can research this on Facebook and Google - maybe it's about time for another Mudcat thread on this...) Send press packs with CD and bio to folk clubs and festivals and magazines. Think laterally: if no-one wants to interview you, interview yourself (hey, it worked for Glenn Gould); if no-one plays you on the radio, start your own podcast... Start videoing yourself on YouTube etc.

Doing all that stuff is more likely to get you gigs these days than driving to folk clubs and doing a floor spot.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:21 AM

John - Swinton in August, Skipton in October

As an ex-Swintonian and a new Skiptonian (is that right?) that is good news for me. Hopefully see you at at least one of them and hoping you get the breaks you deserve. Shame we don't still have the music halls - you could make up the difference clog dancing :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: johncharles
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:15 AM

Dear Bill D. I heard someone sing the song years ago. i got the words and fitted the half remembered tune to it. Later I heard the original version by Red River dave but decided to stick with the way I was already performing it. It is not commonly sung in the UK as far as I can tell therfore the expectation of a particular tune may not be so great.
I was singing it in a pub recently and a man form the performing rights society was there taking notes. When he asked who performed it I told him it was Red River Dave the yodelling cowboy; I think he thought I was pulling his leg by the look he gave me. john

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 17 May 13 - 05:39 AM

I have had over 35 years of being a paid performer and have also run folk clubs, I really do not like the tone of this thread at all.
in my experience a well run club can cope with one poor floor singer in an evening, this is where the resident or resident group has to come in and bring the evening up.
While I agree with that comment about floor singers the OP was talking about booked acts doing longer sets.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 17 May 13 - 06:08 AM

There has been a bit of divergence in this thread and floor singers/spots have featured heavily in the discussion.

Yes, the OP is referring to "booked acts" but he or she also states

"Mind you, these are just 20 minute sets, which means that anyone can sit through practically any one of them."

I realise that all clubs are organised differently but, in certain quarters, a 15-20 minute set could also be an extended floor spot.

Certainly, if the artists have been advertised to play at the venue and the punters have bought tickets on the strength of this then the organiser has an extra responsibility to the audience.

However, if the 15-20 minutes set is just a "warm up" for the main act who may be doing something like two 45 minute sets, then this may be seen as less crucial. Of course, as I said earlier, it's not necessarily fair on the audience who have come to see somebody else but once their chosen act gets on the stage most of them will "forget the pain" and generally enjoy the night as a whole unless the support or floor singers have been really bad.

Many clubs may have a succession of floor singers/performers for 20 mins or even longer rather than a "warm up" act before the main guest arrives. At least, this offers some opportunity for variety even if the next singer isn't necessarily any improvement on the previous one!
:-)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:16 AM

It seems clear that "warm up" is not the situation for Ebbie.   She appears to be talking about perfomers who themselves are to be the "main act", but are disappointing.

Perhaps it's the difference between the US and UK approaches to folk clubs. I'm aware that in the UK you can have warm-up acts.   In the US we often do not.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:42 AM

Well, if you are booking an act for only twenty minutes and possibly others on the same evening, I'd imagine that you wouldn't want to spend too much money on each one. Unless it's a very lucrative club, of course, but even then if you are paying out a decent sum you would surely want your money's worth in terms of performance time?

So, to a certain extent, you get what you pay for in these situations.

That's not to say all the acts will be bad nor should they be. It's possible that some will be very good "up and coming" musicians who are happy enough to do a short spot to help promote themselves.
You may also get good local experienced musicians who are happy enough to do a shorter set for the appropriate remuneration because the may be at a "loose end" and they may also be "friends" and supporters of the folk club scene.
On the other hand, there will also be those acts who are still "honing" their craft, "past their best", or just not up to it.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:11 AM

This thread suggests to me that people in the US are having some of the same problems that we are in UK, although I think the US folk scene is organised a bit differently. There do seem to be a lot of singers about who think they have some divine democratic right to get up and sing. Up to a point, I'd say that, in folk clubs, they do. However, this has to be tempered by the right of paying punters to get what they think they are paying for. If it's a singaround/song circle, then everybody gets a go, but these are usually free, or minimal entry fee, and people know what to expect. The concert platform, with named performers getting an extended spot, and punters paying to get in, is an entirely different thing. The folk club lies somewhere in between. There were always general principles on which folk clubs ran, but no actual rules, so there was always scope for variation and experiment. I think this generally worked satisfactorily, but when people like me have suggested, in previous Mudcat threads, that this was the way to do things, we've been told "no, we can't go back to the old ways". (Is there only me that sees the irony in this?) Some clubs didn't have floor spots on guest nights, and the atmosphere tended to be more formal. I preferred the clubs where there were at least some floor spots on guest nights, and the atmosphere was more relaxed. (It isn't as if you were paying a fortune to get in in those days). I remember once, in the '70s, after the floor spots, the guest (I'm pretty sure it was Nic Jones; my apologies to him if it wasn't) on getting up for his second spot said "the floor spots are always my favourite part of a folk club; you never know whether your singer is going to be brilliant or bloody awful". I agree. I love the element of unpredictability. I also agree with several posters here, that a 20 minute spot, if the performer is not right, can be dire.
I'm waffling again.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:42 AM

dear Harmonium man

i just auditioned you for my club


i clicked on to your canadee i o and was moved to turn it off after 10 seconds

the harmonium drowned your vocal and i could not recognise the song.

i admit to having heard Nic Jones and a woman from a folk club sing it unaccompanied once . i would listen again to them .

Your immediate and the first impression you convey will count heavily for or against you.

Some folk clubs are genuine and they will engage you. you appear a to be an intriguing character , but most i fear will not.

I organise to promote the genre but also to entertain there bums-in-seats is important

where a club has a staunch and loyal following its philosophy will probably be at odds with mine

I shall now give your other song a listen

All the best

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:55 AM

I generally dont care much for Scottish songs having found dialect a major hurdle to my listening ears as they try to follow the lyric
I stayed with that one because I appreciated the cittern playing and you sing in tune and in time.
the melody was soothing.
But
its nice to go travelling and I wish you all the best,
we must never lose the joy we get from singing for singing's sake.
Focus and target festival organisers as opposed to clubs.
redo the one with harmonium and play it quietly so it is under you voice.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:15 AM

Hi Dave. So, you thought you'd escape me by moving to Skipton? Ha! You can't even escape my dancing, as I'll be there with Seven Stars, for 'Clogfest' in July. As regards dancing in clubs, I used to do it in the '70s, with The Wakes, and have done it an odd time recently, by request of the organiser; as it happened, one of the regulars was able to accompany me. Are you doing Abram this year? Hope to see you at one or other event, anyway.

Matt: Thanks for looking at the new site. The old one wasn't actually mine; it was some spare space Al Whittle had, and he set it up - I had no cotrol. As regards all those internet sites, Iit's not the way for me. My computer skills don't go much beyond swearing at the bloody thing. I haven't even got a computer of my own - can't afford one, and wouldn'e be able to set anything up on it. But even if I did, it would do no good. I'll guarantee that a goodly number of club organisers don't spend a lot of time scouring these websites looking for guests. It's a buyers' market. Too many of us chasing too few bookings. And some organisers have their own fixed ideas about who to book. Others don't trust CDs and publicity handouts. I wouldn't, if I were running a club. As has been suggested on this thread, it's too easy to make a recording, and there's too much scope for sexing up recordings. Same with publicity. I could, as easily as anybody else, send out glossy, professional photographs (which tell you nothing about what I sound like), and a blurb telling you that I am one of the UK's most accomplished singers, a stunning intrumentalist and acclaimed song arranger, blah, blah, blah. Once people have been had by this sort of bilge, and the accompnying slick, over-produced CD (featuring various famous musicians, to make the mediocre singer sound good) they no longer give any credence to such things. If I turn up, by arrangement, at their club, and get up in front of their audience and perform, they know exactly what they would be getting, and can see how their audience reacts to it. I know that many people think I'm crackers, but I believe this is the way to do things. But I've been to clubs where the organiser is simply NOT INTERESTED - have been very off-hand, and simply treated me as any other floor singer, although I've emailed or phoned in advance and explained who I am and that I am Looking for dates. And I've spoken to other singers who have had the same experience with the same organisers. All the internet presence in the world isn't going to impinge on their consciousness. I've also gone down the road of sending out demo CDs to festivals: nothing - zippo - zilch. Some of them didn't even respond to my request for an address to send the demo. I think you said, on another thread a few months ago (my appologies if this wasn't you) in response to somebody looking for advice on getting dates, that it has never been easier to get bookings - you listed all the ways of publicising yourself. I would take issue; it's true that there have never been so many ways to publicise yourself, many of which are free, or inexpensive, but getting dates is another matter. I've been singing in the clubs for 45 years, all but a few years gap, and I'd say it's never been harder. Of course, as evidenced by the experiences recounted on this thread, there will always be those who manage to blag their way in. And while it's difficult to know what's the best way to guard against it, they do tend to have short careers.

Sorry- wittering again. John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:18 AM

if the organiser cannot decide what to do for herself then in my opinion she should not be running a folk club.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:26 AM

Ebbie: Sorry - I seem to be hijacking your thread, which isn't being very helpful, and wasn't my intention. I'm going to go away and saw some wood.
JK

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:36 AM

Just to add to the thread hijack, John - loved your videos on Vimeo. The GUEST here who turned one off after 10 seconds was, in my view, mistaken.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 13 - 02:54 PM

I don't mind thread hijacking! It's been interesting.

"...the organiser cannot decide what to do for herself then in my opinion she should not be running a folk club." You may note that we don't have a, strictly speaking, folk club. This is a small venue to introduce performers to audiences and to showcase known crowd pleasers.

Ya know, Dick M, I doubt I would go listen to you. I like my performers to be people I care to know.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 13 - 03:43 PM

Gee, my computer can't spell "performers". I'm sure it's not the fault of the writer.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Elmore
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:12 PM

Never had this problem. We were one of the few venues to book "traditional" performers,so we had a superabundance of excellent artists and a shortage of dates on which to present them. So, forty years later our performers are aging, and our members are dying.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: matt milton
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:25 PM

sorry, I'm going to perpetuate the 'hijack' for a bit...

John said:
" I think you said, on another thread a few months ago (my appologies if this wasn't you) in response to somebody looking for advice on getting dates, that it has never been easier to get bookings - you listed all the ways of publicising yourself. I would take issue; it's true that there have never been so many ways to publicise yourself, many of which are free, or inexpensive, but getting dates is another matter. I've been singing in the clubs for 45 years, all but a few years gap, and I'd say it's never been harder."

...yes, sounds like me. And I still think it's easy to get gigs, thanks to social networking and the internet, but that might be because perhaps we're spoilt, to an extent, in London. There are a LOT of places to play here and I've never had a problem getting gigs, even though I'm nobody, with very few recordings to show for myself.

I admit, it must be very difficult if you don't even have a computer. And I agree with you, that, in principle, it SHOULD be, in an ideal world, the case that one could just, in an egalitarian way, turn up and do a floor spot, blow everyone away by one's brilliance and be offered back for a headline gig, or a too-notch support slot to Martin Carthy or something.

But, personally, I think you're underestimating people's tolerance for the kind of overproduced, glossy CD, big-package presentation. I think it carries a lot of weight. I've seen a lot of the current, younger folk scene's brightest and best being roundly ignored at folk clubs and singer-songwriter nights over the last 10 years ... until, that is, they got record deals, album reviews ... success breeds success and people tend to hear with their preconceptions, and enjoy things they have been primed to enjoy.

I mean, there's a singer at my local folk club who really struggles with pitch, wandering all over the place, but who everyone else thinks is a-mazing, largely I suspect because she's easy on the eye and her general singing voice is pleasant in that "pretty young girl who sings folk" kind of way. Somehow I don't think she'd be tolerated at all there if she was a podgy, bald, 60something. One strange side-effect of the digital age is that people want to believe their eyes.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 17 May 13 - 07:44 PM

Oh, well.. if Ebbie doesn't mind; it's helping to keep the thread going, anyway.
Anonymous guest: the somgs were recorded on a camera, and the sound is not the best quality. I don't have the money to het a professional video done. If organisers are going to judge my performance on the quality of the recording, they might just as well say they didn't like the colour of my shirt. I'm not trying to sell the videos; they are just to give people a taste of what I do. As regards concentrating on festivals, I'd rather sing in clubs. Festival bookinngs can be very unsatisfactory, and, frankly, a pain in the arse. And they are not interested in people like me anyway.
Hi Mike. Glad you liked the songs. There'll be more soon.
Matt: I can take your point about 'people's tolerance for the kind of overproduced, glossy CD....' etc. It's probably true to some extent. The triumph of style over content (which is peretty much what showbiz is all about; folk music should be more honest - it used to be the antidote to showbiz, but not any more). But I have heard adverse comments about this sort of thing from some organisers, and one lady in Scotlamd said that what I was doing was right; that she had booked a duo on the strength of a great-sounding CD, and was disappointed with the reality - they didn't sound the same on stage.
And you may have a different experience in London. I haven't been much within the M25 yet - I've done floor spots at five clubs around the peripheries, and have been booked twice at Orpington (Change of Horses). But I have found it easier to get dates in the south east generally, than in other areas. Pity it's 200 miles away! I get no support from my local clubs. There are half a dozen clubs around the north west where I get booked over and over, but the ones nearest home just ignore me. It's a closed shop.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Traitor
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:16 PM

Thanks for the reply HH. You divine correctly that we have a committee run club. Your suggestion is a good one. I shall have to.work out a gentle way to avoid a repeat. They are all good friends so I will make sure of a good outcome. As you are aware, a reputation takes time and effort to build but can be destroyed very quickly.
Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 17 May 13 - 08:41 PM

Spot artists should have a reasonable level of competence - that's a no brainer. IMO, sing-a-round sessions should be open to all levels however, having said that, the singer/player should have at least learned the song/tune to some degree before airing their rendition. I cringe at the efforts of some individuals who are consistantly unrehearsed.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:42 AM

Traitor: Hope it proves helpful. Perhaps you could post the outcome here, as I'm sure quite a few people would be interested. It's always a delicate and worrying position to be in, when somebody needs to be made aware of something which might potentially offend or upset them.

DTM: Wholheartedly agree. I don't much care for singarounds. I'm all in favour of people being allowed to have their chance to get up and sing, but I think the old way of getting up in front of the audience and doing a couple of songs was better. Singarounds seem to be encouraging mediocrity and incompetence, and there seems to be an attitude that someone having the right to have a go is more important than doing the songs any sort of justice, or that what the singer is getting out of the exercise is more important than what the audience is getting. I am of opinion that crib-sheets should be banned - as they have been in some clubs. They simply encourage people not to bother trying to learn the songs. Much better that they make the extra effort to learn songs properly, and then do their floor spot when they have a couple of songs ready to sing to the audience, rather than burying themselves behind a crib-sheet and just going through the motions, This may mean that they won't sing every week, but the audience would get more satisfaction from it , and so - surely - would the singer; is that such a bad thing?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:52 PM

Ebbie-
It's really a matter of to whom you feel responsible ---the peformer or the audience.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:59 AM

John Kelly is a remarkable talent. One of the best singers of traditional song that I have ever heard in over forty years going to folk clubs. He's no slouch as a guitarist also and other instruments.

Its been my privilege to be his support act at Loughborough acoustic club.

I met him after seeing him as a floorspot at Mansfield folk Club. I wa immediately struck by the quality and originality of his work. You must understand that cheap cam excerpts on Yourtube in no way represent the talent of this guy. If you like traditional music, you will not be disappointed by John Kelly's work, should you book him for your club or festival.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:55 AM

Well said Big Al I'm with you, book him now while he's still got the van.
Hope to see you soon John.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Breedloveboy
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:34 AM

My personal dislike are people who come onto a stage and immediately start tuning and retuning their guitars. There is no excuse for it, either a their guitar is no good, or they are not hearing correctly. Practice and Tune, in your own time!!

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:47 AM

I get really pissed off with people who thing that tuning is "near enough". If the guitar is out - TUNE IT!.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:31 AM

Al: I thought I was the support act!
Keith: get yerself over to the White Lion in Swinton on 5th August!
Thanks Al and Keith for the supportive comments. It's those that keep me going.
Incidentally, Al is another who is getting ignored by the folk clubs. Writes witty songs, has a very nice guitar style, and a friendly way with an audience. I don't seem to hear Keith's name as much as he deserves either. Singer, multi-instrumentalist and witty entertainer. And of course there's Al's friend and mine, Jack Hudson. One of the Voices of the folk world, writes good songs, one of which I'm thinking about having a go at myself, and almost completely ignored, to the folk world's eternal shame. And there are others. But we just seem to hear the same couple of dozen names ad nauseam.
The point has been made more than once about tuning, and it's a complaint I hear quite frequently. Many folk guitarists, myself included, tend to use a variety of different tunings. For the non-guitarist, I would point out that this is not a cheat, to make things easier. On the contrary; you are effectively having to re-learn the instrument for each tuning. But different tunings give different possibilities and diierent effects. I try to keep the re-tuning to a minimum, by doing a couuple of songs in the same tuning in the first half, and re-tuning in the interval, or having a couple of songs in the same half with perhaps only one string having to be re-tuned. But then I've got the harmonium and other things, so I'm not using the guitar so much. Of course, if the guitar is your only instrument, it's a bit problematical; some guitarists get around this by lugging three guitars around. That's if they can afford three guitars - good guitars ain't cheap, you know! The other problem, which is the curse of the string player generally, is keeping the thing in tune. Sometimes one particular string may be problematical. But often the problem is changes of atmosphere or temperature. Just because you tuned up before you came on stage, it doesn't mean that the instrument will stay in tune while you're there. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the instrument is at fault. It has to be admitted, however, that some guitarists in particular overdo it; whether from nervousness, or it's a delaying tactic while they think what to sing next, or remember how the song starts, or it's just a pose...I dunno. In some cultures, of course, tuning is part of the performance. maybe we're too impatient in the West.
John Kelly

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:42 AM

Jack and I have both given up the struggle - don't want to spend any more of our remaining years struggling for recognition. We're both weak physically.

Best of luck John. Theres still great pleasure to be had playing music for yourself and friends.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 13 - 11:50 AM

Ebbie,.1. you do not know me. 2. you do not appear to be able to take a criticism of your posting this thread.
3.What make you think I want to play at your venue.
4.
I believe that organisers should have a clear idea how to deal diplomatically with performers,BEFORE they start running any kind of club or event,Ialso think it is the prerogative of organisers if they are financing the club to be able to choose who they want to allow to sing.
5.if you wish to take my remarks as a personal slight, that is your problem not mine

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Breedloveboy
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:08 PM

A bad guitarist will always take longer to tune, because his ear is not developed enough to identify whats wrong and be able to put it right quickly. If you want proof watch Tommy Emmanuel, he tunes whilst playing if he has to.

Come of it Harmonium Hero open tunings are easier to play.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:32 PM

Another thread hijack - I watched John Kelly's videos and I was deeply impressed. This is someone who knows and understands traditional music and how to let the focus be on the song. I do some booking for a concert series, and I would much rather see videos such as the ones John posted as opposed to something "produced". I have no doubt that, if I were to see John at a folk club (and if I ever have the chance, now that he is on my radar, I will not miss it) what I would get would be very close to what I saw on the video (only much better because it would be live).   John, I also listened to the sound samples on your website and enjoyed them very much, but I wanted to let you know that the titles on the selections don't correspond to what's actually there. For example, I clicked on "Lakes of Ponchartrain" and got a completely different song. Still lovely and I listened to them all, but what you click on is not what you get.

Ebbie, there's probably no good answer for your situation - it's never easy to tell someone they just aren't up to snuff! Tactful but diplomatic - easier said than done!

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 07:13 PM

Maryrrf: Thank you for the comments. Glad you enjoyed the songs. The titles are under the sounclips, not above. I don't know where most people would expect them to be, but at least one other person that I know of has expected them to be above. I'll have to re-think that one. Actually, if you click on the title rather than the hairy caterpillar (whatever that thing is called) you'll get the right one. Ponchartrain is one that I've had some very nice commenbts about when I've sung it out. At one singaround, somebody got in first; borrowed a guitar, took out a crib sheet and launched into the song. Absolutely crucified it. Grrr.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:00 PM

"personal slight".   Oh c'mon.   Ebbie was just trying to clarify the nature of her venue--which she did in a quite even-tempered way.

It's the poster who needs to cool off a bit, and not feel the need to reach for his sword to defend his sacred honor (honour?) quite so eagerly.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:28 PM

"A bad guitarist will always take longer to tune"
I guess that makes Tom Paley a bad guitarist.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:43 PM

Breedloveboy: "open tunings are easier to play"..
Maybe so, but you still have to learn to find your way around them. And I didn't mention open tunings....And they are not necessarily easier to get properrly tune, either.
John 'near enough for folk' Kelly

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:35 PM

Thanks, Ron.

I need to clarify that

1. We do not have a folk club, even though the music is acoustic and we don't usually use a sound system because our acoustics are excellent. We present a wide variety of music- everything from pop to shape note singing to singer/songwriter stuff to traditional folk songs to old standards, and back again. I would most likely draw the line at rap; I don't care for it and most of our audience members would probably not either. In any case I get to make the decision.
2. We charge $5.00 at the door (a 3-hour/5 set event); youngsters free.
3. Nobody gets paid- that includes the performers. The only exceptions we have made was a few occasions when we snagged a performer who was passing through town and who used us as a teaser for a later concert they were putting on.
4. At intermission we serve cookies and coffee/tea. We put out a donations basket since it appears that people don't like to eat for free. But the goody donors don't get that money- it goes into the pot. We do comp anyone who brings goodies.
5. At the end of the season we decide where the excess money should go. For instance, this evening we're making a donation to the hall for their fundraiser. We will still have about a thousand dollars in the kitty; by the time we start the series again this fall that money will have been paid out.
6. I don't like numbered lists, Dick. Incidentally it is true that I don't actually know you but I am aware from your posting history that you are a thin-skinned performer who is probably a talented musician. I wouldn't dream of inviting you to perform in a venue such as mine. Thanks heavens.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 May 13 - 02:55 AM

"now that the best way to run a club is by benevolent dictatorship" I've heard that one before John but the post by the Guest slightly further down the thread who started off a post by stating "I don't much like Scottish songs" maybe shows the pitfalls there could be with one person holding too much sway :-)

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:04 AM

"A bad guitarist will always take longer to tune"
I guess that makes Tom Paley a bad guitarist.

And Martin Carthy!

DtG

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:14 AM

Actually, I am repeatedly impressed by the speed and accuracy with which Martin Carthy goes from tuning to tuning.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:22 AM

He does now, Richard, but I saw three different tunings for three consecutive songs and the 'tuning time' for that is considerable to the waiting audience. In all fairness that was many years ago and more recently I have seen Martin keep re-tunes to a minimum by various means. Thanks for reminding me he has changed though - You are quite right to point out that it is no longer an issue. Funny how first impressions stick with you though isn't it!

DtG

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:23 AM

a lot of guitarists aren't interested in guitar construction at all. if you have enough knowledge to get your guitar set up correctly. and a big enough budget change your guitar strings quite often its not really too much of a problem with modern electronic tuners being so affordable.

older guitarists are often resistant to technology and reckon you should have perfect pitch and be able to hear which guitar strings to tighten or loosen.

I personally think it can be tricky.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:32 AM

"I guess that makes Tom Paley a bad guitarist."
I saw Tom perform in London a couple of weeks ago and was once again staggered at how much respect and understanding he brings to the songs he sings - enough to spend the time getting them right at least.
Would that......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:58 AM

Ebbie, you dont get it do you, I have no desire to play at your venue.
I think that organisers should have thought THE problem of poor
performers out BEFORE THEY STARTED RUNNING AN EVENT.
since you dont pay anybody what do you expect, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
you charge 5 dollars on the door, you dont pay anybody, and you expect quality, I think you are barmy, it is a little bit like charging someone to come and plaster your house and then expecting a good job and then complaining because the plastering is poor, you want a good job you employ a skilled tradesman and you have to pay him well.
in my opinion
the only good thing about your system of organisation is that you let youngsters in free.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 13 - 10:41 AM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:25 PM

Nothing wrong with doing things your way as such, Ebbie.

However, as I suggested earlier (And more tactfully than GSS), you get what you pay for(or don't)to a certain extent.

Yes, there is no reason why you shouldn't get some good quality performers from time to time. Good "up and coming" acts may wish to find a platform to make themselves better known while you'll also get good local performers or visiting musicians who are content just to enjoy the experience and will support your concept.

However, I don't think this can always be guaranteed and it's probably inevitable that you'll have to take the rough with the smooth from time to time.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:35 PM

"since you dont (sic) pay anybody (sic) what do you expect (sic)." ( Is grammar anti-folkie?)



It ain't necessarily so.    For instance, there are quite a few talented Mudcatters who are willing to play and sing for the joy of it--and people like to hear them--and participate themselves in the music. Yes, they are not professionals.    This does not mean they are incompetent.   They probably have the luxury of having music as an avocation, a passion--not a job.

It's likely---in fact it's clear--- that there are talented people in Ebbie's area.   All she's trying to do is minimize the number of perfomers at her venue who think they have a lot more talent than they do.

As has been pretty clearly established, in order to deal with the problem, she will have to audition--though that, it seems, has not been the case up to now.   The auditions will have to be in person or by recording (which is taking a chance. Scholars bicker on whether the chance is worth it. I think it is.

Subject: RE: Poor Performers & What to do?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:50 PM

there may be quite a few talented mudcatters, whether they are prepared to travel miles and can afford to do so is a different matter.
ron davies, you understood perfectly what i was saying, i hope you enjoy scoring points and being pedantic.
Ron, I play music purely for pleasure, which is why I would not travel hundreds of miles to Ebbies club EVEN IF SHE PAID ME, because it would not be pleasurable
Neither I could I afford the travelling cost.,
however I run a singers club in my village and participate and run a weekly trad music session, I also run a folk festival and AM INVOLVED IN RUNNING a jazz festival all of which are unpaid, so dont lecture me about playing or promoting music and receiving no money.
you, like Ebbie do not know me personally, you seem to be prejudging me on a remark I made which was critical of the need for Ebbies post as an organiser., a remark that i stand by, you should have this issue sorted out before you run any event
in plain anglo saxon, Ron, go and play feticules somewhere else