Singing Vowels

Subject: Singing Vowels
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:29 PM

I have had a problem singing harmonies with one of the guys in the band for years. Today after a job to day it struck me what the problem has been. When he sings vowels he sings them as of they were two tones.

To sing the letter/word "O" he starts out fine but turns "O" into "0-oooo" The first half of the note is fine but when O becomes ooo the word flatens out. This also happens with "I". "I" becomes "I-eee"

I imagine that it is enough to fix this problem but he can't hear the difference.

Is this a common problem?

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:36 PM

Where I was raised, yes. I would imagine it is a local dialect problem. When I was in middle shcool, I attended a Music Camp. I was there for orchestra but everbody had to be in a choir. The good singers were in Chamber Choir and everybody was in Concert Choir.

One of the peices we did was the Norman Luboff arrangement of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. Conductor had a horrible time getting all these Kansas kids to sing "Glory glory" instead of "Glary glary". (as in father)

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:59 AM

Don, it sounds just like a problem I deal with in my chorus all the time. Of course, in choral singing there are certain standards that a director can establish to achieve blend- one is that I require "pure" vowels, not sliding vowels as your friend has. But in a small group it's a stickier situation.
I agree with Sorcha that it sounds like a dialect problem- he sees his way as normal!
Is he the "lead" singer here? You might just decide to think of it as a style of singing you are willing to go along with, sorta like singing a song in another language.
Otherwise, just try to work together- even syllable by syllable if necessary- until you're both satisfied.

BTW- My daughter LOVES the bracelet I bought from you! She wears it every day, no matter what she's doing or where she is. It's lovely!

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: IanC
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM

Don

What you are hearing is a dipthong. You can hear your partner's dipthong because it's different from yours. There are virtually no "pure" vowel sounds in English and people who claim to sing pure vowels just can't hear their own dipthong sounds!

You'll just have to decide whose dipthongs to sing and sing those.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:42 AM

Just to expand on Ian's point, a diphthong (note spelling, if you do a search) is two vowel sounds run into one. Thus "view" includes "ee" as in "me" and "oo" as in "too". When spoken, the whole word is a single syllable, over in a moment. But if it is sung, and especially if it is to be held for a bar or two, you have to decide which bit or bits to extend. Most choirs would sustain only the latter vowel - or the last in a word like "choirs," which manages to cram three vowels into a single syllable.

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: pattyClink
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:42 PM

If you want purer tones and more volume and sustain, in general, then embrace the diphthongs, and both of you linger on the first vowel sound, then 'close' very late in the note with the ending vowel.

If you want a more clipped, conversational tone, he would need to listen to what you are doing and try to imitate your sounds.

Since he 'can't hear the difference' you might need to do the shifting. But you may get more power and tone in exchange for the work. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:58 PM

He sees his way as normal!

It is normal. As Ian C said, English doesn't go in for pure vowel sounds. It's just that his impurities are different from your impurities. (Of course it is possible to sing English with pure vowel sounds. But it doesn't sound much like English.)

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:21 PM

Mondo threadcreep: Wasn't it Cleveland Amory's cat whose meowing noise was all vowels: "AEIOU" ?

Now there's a diphthong for ya! (or would that be fifththong?)

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 11:38 AM

Diphthongs in English canbevery complicated.
Choir might actually have four sounds, pronounced quickly to blend with each other = koo - ah - ee - err.

A few years ago, I tried to transliterate "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" into Georgian for a group of Georgian (Caucasus Mountains) singers visiting the United States. Georgian has a wealth of consonants, but only 5 pure vowel sounds, and I had to break down each and every diphthong into its component vowel sounds. A long "O' is oh-oo in English (as opposed to oo-oh in Russian). Long "I" is ah-ee. That's without even taking into account the possibility of regional dialects (such as the special Chesapeake long "O").

Pure vowels sound all right in Italian opera, but very stilted in English folk-singing.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 01:29 PM

Don,

With all this talk about diphthongs, people have overlooked the obvious problem, and that is, for whatever reason, they guy has made no attempt in all these years to try to match what he is doing to what you are doing--the problem is not really what he is doing, it is that what he is doing is not what you are doing, and he either can't or doesn't want to change--

Funny this should come up just now, because I was thinking about a guy that I used to accompany--he had learned to sing a bunch of old songs from his father while growing up, and he sang them exactly the same way, mistakes and all, everytime--On one song, he always started on a note that was in another key and then after a few notes was in the right place. He couldn't change what he was doing to save his life. When I started in the key he did, he still moved to the other one, and we were out of tune--I finally just gave him a chord, let him start unaccompanied, and fell in behind him when the dust had settled--

Good luck with this--

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 03:44 PM

Good point, MTed! And MMario, and everyone- you've all got good points. Anyone who's heard my chorus knows we're anything but stilted; I guess the point I'm trying to make is to get all the singers to agree on the vowels and the cutoffs and the breaths and the rests and everything- but MTed's point that it takes more than one to rumble is very important!

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 04:40 PM

The interesting thing in all this is that it has taken me this long to realize the problem. I have a total hearing loss of one ear and it proves problematic to me. My hearing is very directional and of course I keep it aimed at the monitors. I could hear when there was something wrong and I'd assume I was the problem and back off. Which I think cpould be as bad as singing flat. Perhaps its only recently that I have started to be really aware of the vocal subtilties that create solid harmonies. Or mabybe I am becoming unaccepting of getting it "Mostly Right".

I imagine that this could lead into discussions of proper breathing skills and when and when not to push a note. I am always trying to improve my voice. Is 50 too late to consider a vocal teacher? Can I improve my range on both ends?

Don

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:54 PM

Yep, singing vowels and holding the tone consistantly is a problem. Not so much for the folk music genre, but for other forms of singing. You might be able to help your song mate hear the problem, then again you might not.

Fifty is NOT too late to consider a vocal teacher. Look at how Placido Domingo took the time to develop all of his range!

Subject: RE: Singing Vowels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:08 PM

"He had learned to sing a bunch of old songs from his father while growing up, and he sang them exactly the same way, mistakes and all, everytime" - that's folk music for you. People singing songs the way they learnt them from their fathers.

All right, M Ted's friend probably wasn't singing in some peculiar traditional style that sounded out of tune because you weren't used to it - though that has often happened, with some really wonderful singers like Jeannie Robertson or Norma Waterson. He was probably just couldn't tune his voice in with an accompanying instrument, which is pretty common, and if there has to be a musical accompaniment ( a big "if"), the way M Ted dealt with it seems sensible.

But singing a whole song in one key, or in one rhythm, and with the same unvaried tune for all the verses - that's just one way of singing songs, and not necessarily the best.