“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…

Subject: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:47 PM

“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's…

There’s a newspaper article reporting comments by Barbara Dickson in relation to the music in Sandy Bells. I also had a lot of respect for Barbara and have enjoyed her music for many years. However, I’m quite upset about her comments here.

[long link removed so page would wrap properly] ---mudelf
Sorry about the long link..

Of course, the pub has changed over the years but there’s nothing wrong with with the quality of the music albeit the sessions tend to be more “organised” these days. However, there were tunes in Bells as far back as the seventies and many legendary musicians e.g. Jock Tamson’s Bairns and many more cut their teeth there.

I am hoping that Barbara was misquoted/represented by a young unknowledgeable journalist as I’d like to think she was a lot more charitable than that.

Anyway even if the music wasn’t great, that’s not the point. It’s all about people getting together for a tune or song and not “big names”.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:49 PM

Here's a shorter link but it's still too big for the "blue clicky" facility

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-pubs-barbara-dickson-upset-by-musicians-making-a-racket-in-famous-edinburgh-pub-4884093

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: DaveRo
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 12:57 PM

Johnny J wrote: still too big for the "blue clicky" facility

Use my Simple linkifier

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-pubs-barbara-dickson-upset-by-musicians-making-a-racket-in-famous-edinburgh-pub-4884093

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:10 PM

Thanks Dave....

I also realise part of the article was behind a pay wall. So, here it is in full..

"Fife-raised chart-topper Barbara Dickson, who now lives in the Capital has said she gets “very upset” when she hears fiddle players in Sandy Bell’s “making a racket” and feels like telling them to “shut up”.

The multi-million-selling artist, who recently announced her Farewell Tour, was a regular at the famous Forrest Road pub back in the mid-1960s. But Dickson, 77, told the 'A Kick Up The Arts' podcast that “everybody has a completely wrong idea of what Sandy Bell’s was”, adding that “it was not a music pub”.

Recalling what the boozer was like in her younger days, she said: “The first archway, forward of that to the door was all regulars, like crusty old guys with flat caps on with their pints of light, probably in those days. They had nothing whatsoever to do with the arty-farty crowd at the back.

“We would meet at the back, by the ladies’ loo door, there could be 20 of us. We would be Edinburgh people and also people coming through like Billy Connolly, Gerry Rafferty, Tam Harvey and people from Glasgow, and we’d all just stand with our pints at the back.
“Nobody took out instruments and eventually somebody – usually someone like the late Derek Moffat, who was a wonderful member of The McCalmans – would burst into song a capella and we would all join in. That was Sandy Bell’s to me.

“We did that all over the place. You didn’t presume to take a guitar out of a case, it was like taking the mickey.”

Dickson continued: “This is why I get very upset when I hear rather lamentable fiddle playing in Sandy Bell’s. I feel like going up and saying ‘excuse me, do you think you could just shut up, because that’s horrible, that racket you’re making. You need to go and listen to Aly Bain, and then come back’. "

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:41 PM

It's Sandy Bell's, you moron!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 01:50 PM

It was actually called The Forest Hill Bar in Barbara's younger days but I won't stoop to the last poster's level.

Maybe Joe could correct my typo? However, I probably drank in Sandy Bell's Bar before this "Groovy" gadge was born.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bells…
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 03:51 PM

We all have start somewhere Barbara.
Don't forget that.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 06:39 PM

Admirable restraint shown by JJ.
Archie Fisher tells us she used to ask friends for spare change to get transport home,
only to be seen hailing a taxi. He joked she was a star even then.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 24 - 08:28 PM

Interesting that her last sentence recommends a performer who got banned from Sandy Bells for life.

I wonder if Dickson ever got on the naughty list too?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:17 AM

Not just Sandy Bell's. The Scotia in Glasgow was a great singing pub, but gradually 'the plague of fiddlers' took over, became incessant, and drove song out! They were so competitive too.
Eventually microphones and formal performance had to be instituted.
Last time I was in Sandy Bell's, I took English friends, and was asked to stop singing after two songs, because a fiddle featuring group were being paid to start. The Royal Oak was more welcoming.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:21 AM

PS - the two songs in Sandy Bell's were one from me and one from my guests.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:35 AM

Barbara Dickson, reminds me of the Hurlers on the Ditch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVMSLHDdRw8

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:45 AM

Hi Ewan,

I don't want to revisit the Musicians V Singers debate although I feel uncomfortable about the "Plague of Fiddlers" comment.... Incidentally, I've also seen the same thing happen the other way around when a few musicians are having a quiet tune and singers have attended "en masse".

However, it's basically all about good manners and respect whatever view you adopt.

Sandy Bell's began to become a predominantly "tune oriented" pub from the seventies onwards although there were still singers who attended there. These days, you will still get some songs as well depending on what night you go.

The main difference is that things are much more organised these days and, as you say, the main session musicians are "booked" to play and they all have their own "This is my" nights. Some are more welcoming that others but this happens in many establishments.

In Edinburgh, singing is usually welcome in The Captains and The Royal Oak and there are other possibilities too. Probably even more now than back in the day.

Re the Royal Oak, I recall that one of the reasons it took off in the early eighties was that Sandy Bells wasn't that conducive to singing even then. Also, The Waverley Bar had declined in popularity too. there was still music there but it tended to be more formal. So the casual and cosy "wee room" downstairs in the Oak was ideal at the time for singers whether unaccompanied or with minimum instrumentation.

Having said all that, I agree that establishments do change over time for better or worse. However, others usually emerge to take their place. It's constantly changing but there's no point on us all forever dwelling on the past.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 05:57 AM

“We would meet at the back, by the ladies’ loo door, there could be 20 of us." 20 - that is not, and never was, physically possible.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 06:15 AM

Yes, even although the lay out has slightly changed these days.

However, it was always the case that the "folkies" and now "trad musicians" tended to gather at the far end of the pub and still do to this day.

The clientele at the front of the bar has changed over the years though. It did used to be the more "regular hardened drinkers" and "auld worthy" types in the old days and there was often a very clear demarcation although some of us did tend mix in both circles at least some of the time.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 07:56 AM

Sandy Bell's would not be my choice of pub for music, since I went in with a friend some years ago: we were thinking we might like to try a song, but the back area was occupied by a tight group of young things all hunched over a table, playing tunes at break-neck speed without any breaks. They never looked up or acknowledged anyone coming into the area, so we just finished our half-pints and left. Maybe not like that every night, but put me off going back.
My preference would be for Captain's or The Royal Oak any day, where you are much more likely to get a mix of songs and tunes, ---- and a pleasant welcome.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 08:18 AM

Yes, probably "not like that every night" (I've not been in for a while myself) but it does seem to be much more that way compared to the days of old.

Sunday afternoon sessions are still more relaxed with an "older crowd" and I believe Wednesday is good too. It clashes with the folk club though.

I remember Sandy Bell's as far back as the seventies(I was a relative latecomer and my first folkie pub was The Waverley... I also visited the likes of The Nicky Tams, Yellow Carvel, Cottars Howff, various establishments in Royal Terrace and many more. Folk *singing* was very popular back then)

In those days, the music was less organised and often spontaneous although some nights would attract a fairly regular crowd of musicians and followers.
The popularity of the pub declined slightly during the early eighties after Jimmy Cairney's time and when Maureen(known to regulars as The Phantom Belle) took over. After that, Mary was the manager for a few years. She was a good soul but her hands were tied by the brewery.

Things improved greatly when Tommy and Charlie Woolley took charge in the mid eighties. Charlie was later to become sole owner and the pub went through a very good period during that time..especially as regards music, sessions, and even the beer improved greatly.

New management again and they are doing their best I'm sure but I think the pub has a slightly different feel these days.
However, as I said, nothing ever stands still nor should we expect it to do so.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 10:55 AM

I doubt if Aly Bain was barred for playing his fiddle.... Barbara's description of the Forrest Hill Bar as I knew it in the late 60s sounds about right- I wouldnt know about the present 'Sandy Bell's' version, but it sounds all too familiar generally, but I'm even older than Barbara, with me.mories of that time- the Marsden Rattlers were regular daytime visitors.

   And the mention that 20 people would fill it reminds me of the wonderful John Eaglesham's verse in his 'Inveroran' song

'Noo the bar at Inveroran's not the biggest one you've seen
   I once was in with fifteen blokes but they were very lean
   I heard they once got twenty in wi' using Vaseline
   Aye it's cosy in the bar at Inveroran'

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 11:33 AM

Great song, Jim.
I remember John singing it too at various festivals over the years.

Yes, everything changes and it suits some people better than others. If that's what the bar and its regular customers want, so be it.

As I (and Trish) said, there are still singing opportunities in other Edinburgh bars and more informal music sessions too. Almost every bar I know is different from what it was 50-60 years ago for better or worse.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:03 PM

It’s all about people getting together for a tune or song and not “big names” QUOTE
I agree

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:33 PM

LOVE the Inveroran song! Still being sung by others since John departed.
Have been part of the "sardine or Vaseline experience" in our local pub (sadly now shut!) on Jan 2 every year when everyone assembled for a song and a tune. If one person started to sway in time to the music, everyone had to sway!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: meself
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 12:50 PM

An old person grumbling about how things have changed. Some things never change.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 03:38 PM

It's part of the job description, 'meself'.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 07:48 PM

Does my old cobber Michael Gill still do Sandy Bell's?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 11:42 PM

never heard of him

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 05:39 AM

To be a little fairer on Barbara, it transpires that these quotes were taken from a longer podcast.

https://youtu.be/pdzTtZDaLIw

After listening to the actual interview on the podcast, her comments taken IN context don’t sound quite as bad although there are obviously some negative aspects.

It was just a segment of a much longer interview where Barbara was telling her “story”.

As I suggested at the start, the quotes look much worse when they have been selectively reported elsewhere in various newspapers.

Basically, she’s just reminiscing about how times have changed. She might have chosen her words more wisely but there’s probably much less harm intended than it first appears

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 10:17 AM

Didn't quite sound like herstyle. Just goes to show what the papers say isn't always complete, I'm thinking "Reports of my death have been exaggerated" here.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 12:32 PM

I've only seen Michael Gill playing once - he did Tuesdays and it was (as far as I know) a purist Irish session, not my thing. I hadn't heard that he stopped.

He did leave TheSession, I think. Their most interesting and most banned member. I'm not surprised he quit after one too many "you can't say that here"s from Jeremy. I packed it in long before for the same reason.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 04:08 PM

I think you were the most interesting of the members

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 04:44 PM

I'm still there but rarely post. Jezza did take a firm grip on things but it became anodyne. Sandy Bell's seemed to be Michael's go-to place. For years, he and I hated each other's guts, but we ended up seeing eye-to-eye on most things and getting on really well offline. As you say, he had an interesting (and bullshit-free) take on things.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 05:04 PM

Is the opinion of Barbara Dickson on the quality of the imstrumental playing, of any consequence

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Nov 24 - 06:35 PM

Michael was not fond of sessions being indiscriminately publicized. At one point he found a loophole in TheSession's listing interface and shifted the location of Sandy Bell's to 20 miles out of town beside an offramp on the M8.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 02:36 AM

I think that is rather a negative approach, someone else is trying to run a session and he tries to mess it up

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 03:28 AM

"Dwelling on the negative simply contributes to its power." — Shirley MacLaine

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 04:27 AM

All the "sessions" I went to over 25 years were gloriously un-run by anyone at all!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 04:37 AM

the positive aspect of session .org is the resources of sheet music.

as a medium of discussion it fails like many internet sites, because of some of the people that use it who are either negative and or argumentative, and it fails because there is no body language as a means of communication
I know of two people who used it who were in fact beginners but contributed as if they were experts.
I am not refrring to Michael Gill, who by all accounts wasa very competent musician.
The strength of the site is the sheet music resource, this very day i learned a tune 95 percent by ear, but used a sheet note transcription to get some fine detail, that was eluding me

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 05:50 AM

"the positive aspect of session .org is the resources of sheet music"

Well, that's actually the most used and visited part of site. I know of many people who check out tunes there who never contribute to discussions and many aren't even members of the forum.

I'm not sure if that's altogether a good thing or not as, while the tune section there is useful, many casual users aren't fully aware of its limitations.
There are lots of non standard settings, some contain errors while a few are just "plain wrong". Even if the tune is the official "composer approved" published version, then this isn't necessarily ideal either as the ethos of the tune section is that members should submit tunes as "played at their local session". Actually, even the composers of tunes don't necessarily play them exactly the same way every time.

However, I'm not "dissing" the facility but its important to understand its limitations. It also gets unfairly criticised by some people including some well known musicians who aren't fully familiar with its flaws and idiosyncracies. It isn't perfect by any means but when you use it sensibly i.e. by listening to the actual tunes in sessions and recordings and "tweaking" to suit etc, it can be a very useful tool.

As I recall, Michael Gill himself didn't rate the tune section at all... His advice was always to "Listen, listen, listen".   One classic comment was "The Tune Book is in your head and not some crazy cyber space nonsense.."
;-))

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 05:51 AM

“Is the opinion of Barbara Dickson on the quality of the instrumental playing, of any consequence?”
She is a very accomplished musician herself, both on guitar and piano, as well as being a stunning singer, so is very well qualified to express an opinion, having worked pretty consistently in both folk music and musical theatre for around 50 years. She has been given two Olivier Awards for her stage work, and an OBE for her contributions to music and drama.
She returned to live in Scotland in 2015, and has since gone back to her folk roots, with some fabulous concerts, but has just been doing a farewell tour prior to retiring. She has some equally talented musicians in her band.
There was a TV documentary about her in 2012, in which she is filmed singing with Archie Fisher accompanying her on guitar. Sandy Bell’s is mentioned in the discussion.
She was our headline guest at Linlithgow Folk Festival a few years back, and was both polite and charming, no big diva airs and graces. She kindly gave me one of her CDs for having looked after her merchandise table.
As Johnny Jay says, her remarks may have been taken out of context, and as meself says, she may just be “another old person grumbling about how things have changed”.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:04 AM

Well we've all heard bad musicians and singers in sessions over the years and I've been guilty of such misdemeanours myself on more than one occasion.

I've also passed opinion in private conversation too(sadly) but I've never gone as far to suggest that poor performers should just "shut up" or question whether or not it was appropriate for them to be singing or playing at all. Unfortunately, Barbara gave the impression that she was questioning the actual ethos of the "pub session" and this what bothered me.

Again, I'm not sure if that was really her intention as in the longer interview it came over more as just a passing comment. However, when reported in the press, it was presented as being much more negative.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:35 AM

There's a sad tendency here to find fault with people who've 'made it' in the commercial world. Barbara was always a fine musician & as good a piano accompanist as I ever had in thoose early days, quite apart from her singing.
Mind you, he always had an eye to a commercial future & well done to her success in that context.
   I remember one time in Fife, the Marsden Rattlers were support to her at the Elbow Room which was a folk club but with a stage. We did our bit & then she ran on stage. She'd made some arrangement with the organiser about her entry & after a lavish spoken intro, a spotlight highlighted her entry to huge applause- Barbara was a local hero after all!
Older mudcat folk may recall ITV's Sunday Night at the London Palladium & the closing 'tableau' in the 60s??   Well one of our band wryly observed...
          'that stage'll torn roond in a minute'

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 08:15 AM

As I recall, Michael Gill himself didn't rate the tune section at all... His advice was always to "Listen, listen, listen"
yes of course listening is important and yes the tune section has limitations,and is not to be taken as always 100 percent accurate

but not everything is as black and white, as in the world of michael gill
accurate tune sheet music can be useful for tunes that have been forgotten,
here is an example
I remember the fiddler Paddy Cronin saying that he used to go through
O Neills 1001 to bring tunes back into the general repertoire
Paddy Cronin had no problem occasionally using sheet music

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: meself
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 11:31 AM

"always had an eye to a commercial future" ... as most who make a name for themselves in the music business do, of course - but it made me wonder if there was any (unintended) irony in her criticism of "attention-seeking behaviour" ... ?

Nothing against the woman, btw, just a comment on her comments.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 03:13 PM

Michael's take on sheet music was that it's a complete no-no for beginners/inexperienced players, but he was more flexible, though with many a caveat, when it came to accomplished musicians who already had hundreds of tunes. I agree with that. As Alan Ng stated on his Irish Tunes Info website, learn by ear and learn it right.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 05:47 PM

We’re thread drifting a bit here, but I will echo what one of our trad music tutors said, “There is no right or wrong way of learning - everyone has their own way of doing it”, and I would totally agree with that. Speaking for myself, I learned to read music at a very early age, so that was my modus operandi for learning new pieces, and later committing them to memory, and discarding the sheet music.
When I started going to mixed instrument classes, the method of learning was by ear, so I made myself do it, but still drawing heavily on all that music theory I had learned as a youngster, e.g, that note is a 4th/5th above the last one, or that run of notes is a scale. What you very rarely see in sheet music of trad tunes, as compared with classical scores, is any phrase marks, dynamics indicators, accents, pauses, ornamentation, etc. You can learn that or make up your own by listening to recordings, but not a good idea to copy them slavishly.
But I will never agree with anyone who says learning by ear is the ONLY way, especially now my hearing is seriously compromised. On the other hand, fully respect those who play brilliantly but have never learned to read music.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:40 PM

Recordings are set in stone, but the best ones have playing that uses lots of variation, ornamentation, etc., that you can both enjoy/be in awe of/learn a lot from, without (as you say) necessarily trying to copy slavishly. In recent weeks I've dropped Spotify, which I was paying for but not using much, in favour of an ad-free sub to YouTube. There's a lot of live/spontaneous performance on there, flaws and all, which, for me, beats the ultimate sterility of even really good recordings. But you really can't beat learning from active listening and learning from your mates in sessions. It may be slow, but it's the best way if you can ditch the urge to be impatient.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 09:01 PM

By the way, my hearing is also seriously compromised.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 04:36 AM

The best way to learn by ear is by selecting good players on you tube and listening carefully, and replaying for fine detail, but sheet music can also be useful.
as far as i am concerned understanding what I am doing harmonically is helpful, but whatever works for different people.
People like Michael Gill who are didactic about music learnibg are narrow minded, and people i try and avoid, from the description jack campin gave of him dissing sessions online , he sounds rather negative

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 05:50 AM

MaJoC's €0.02 (which probably belongs in a different thread):

One of the hazards of learning a song from a recording is that one tends to pick up the accent of the original singer. By all means, learn to sing it like the original, but then learn to sing it as yourself.

We now return you to the Subject line.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 05:55 AM

"One of the hazards of learning a song from a recording is that one tends to pick up the accent of the original singer. By all means, learn to sing it like the original, but then learn to sing it as yourself."

Same applies to tunes, of course. You will or should adapt it to your own style whether or not you learn it by ear or from the dots.

That's if you've got a good "style", of course. You may want to try and emulate a musician or singer or get ideas on how to improve yourself. One still shouldn't slavishly copy.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:00 AM

He had the gift of seeing through bullshit. That's a positive, not a negative. I had a large collection of tune books but I gave the whole lot away a quarter of a century ago. The notation of a traditional tune on a page is far less than bare bones. It's precisely what a beginner, or an experienced musician just starting out with traditional music, doesn't need. I don't know what Capt. O'Neill was thinking of!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:11 AM

Frances O Neill was thinking of the preservation of a body of music he feared in danger of getting lost. And so were, and are, other collectors. And that is just what he did.
His target audience consisted of traditional musicians who knew what was what. As a result loads of tunes went onto wide circulation that would otherwise have died out. Same can be said for the Breathnach collection, CRE has helped a vast body of tunes into wide circulation.

A great example is 'the Old Grey Goose', a six or so parter that O'Neil cobbled together by adding stray parts to a usual two paryer. It worked out great, Coleman recorded it and now we all play it the way O"Neill published it. That is what he was thinking.

It's certainly much easier to learn tunes by immersion but I can say I have lifted a fair amount of great tunes from several collections that I would not have encountered otherwise. And they have enriched my repertoire greatly.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:23 AM

I still have loads of books and almost as much "loose" sheet music which I've downloaded or been given at workshops, gatherings, or to prepare for concerts.

At the moment, I keep a couple of folders containing "special tunes" which include my favourites and others I especially want to work on at the time. Unfortunately, these are becoming a bit full too.
Of course, there are several hundred and more which I have learned but don't have immediately to hand any more.

However, I learn tunes by a variety of means and would never treat the written notation as "gospel". Even if I felt obliged to "play as written" for a particular performance that would just be a "one off" and I will always end up doing it my own way in the end.

I still buy books and CDs(see my more recent thread) although not as often and it's usually because I want to support the composer, performer, or organisation. Quite often, I'll only learn one or two tunes but it's the thought that counts. ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 07:16 AM

> You will or should adapt it to your own style
> whether or not you learn it by ear or from the dots.

Guilty as charged. I can't get Sandy Denny's ornamentation on A Sailor's Life out of my head, though I try to make up for it in the two extra verses I swiped from elsewhere and spliced in.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 09:26 AM

Point taken about the good captain, Peter, though your aside "...His target audience consisted of traditional musicians who knew what was what..." is apposite. Apropos of Irish tunes, I've see it stated that the tradition was saved largely by Irish-American musicians, in the US, in the early 20th century. Maybe.

You've picked up tunes from the written note, Peter. The point is, you know what's what. ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 10:28 AM

the irish instrumental tradtion was considered BY some to have been wrecked by the influence of sligo musicians like coleman who had moved to USA
Patrick Kelly was one who said that, and then there was neilidh Boylw who wouldnt record until KENNEDY Let him have a rant about the stte of irish music, which he called jungle music.
so Steve, it all depends on which trad musicians opinion you are listening to.
as for Michael Gill?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: meself
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 11:15 AM

Wasn't it American pop music (of the time) that he was calling 'jungle music'? I would have thought he was complaining about its popularity in Ireland - was he also saying it was influencing trad music itself? I only heard that rant once, many years ago now ....

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 12:49 PM

no

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 01:34 PM

I have met and played a session in Sandy Bell's with Michael Gill, which may give me an advantage over most people participating in this particular thread. He was an excellent Irish fiddle player, so any opinions he held came from years of practical knowledge and being very able to "walk the walk". He certainly could never have been described as a "lamentable" player. I have no idea of his opinions of the Irish fiddle players mentioned above, and fail utterly to see their relevance to any discussion about the standard of fiddle playing recently encountered by Barbara Dickson in Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 02:02 PM

They have no relevance here but Sandman seems to always go to Neilidh Boyle. Séamus Ennis recorded Boyle well before he introduced Kennedy to him, but that another story.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 03:23 PM

I Never said he was a bad player.
guestvabove
i also mentioned Patrick kelly this was in relation to Steve Shaw and his comment, i said quote
the irish instrumental tradition was considered BY some to have been wrecked by the influence of sligo musicians like coleman who had moved to USA

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:06 PM

Well, rather than latching on to unsupported snippets of comments and "he said thats" of old (not saying they are inaccurate...just unsupported...), I suggest a read of a very interesting thread from 15 years ago go on TheSession (entitled "Uploads - Boyle, Casey, Clancy and Doherty"), with special attention to the "jungle music" angle. There's plenty of nuance there that's currently evading us in this thread.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 02:23 AM

Patrick Kelly said the worst thing that happened to irish fiddle music was the the copying of recotdings of Morrison and Coleman.

Lang Johnnie mor, Paddy Cronin walked the walk too, and he had no problem with sheet music

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 06:21 AM

"the irish instrumental tradition was considered BY some to have been wrecked by the influence of sligo musicians like coleman who had moved to USA "

Citation needed.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 06:54 AM

You know, Irish Traditional Music is a broad and diverse church. There's such a variety of opinions on all sort of thing it is easy to find a quote to support an opinion.
Sure, some will have said the influence of the 78rpms was detrimental to some aspects, the old country fiddlers putting down their instruments because they could never come up to that standard is one that is brought up some times. On the other hand some of the finest exponents of the art listened to the 78s in minute detail and enriched their playing with new tools and means of expression. Were Casey, Canny and the rest of them misguided? I don't think so.

In other words, there are many sides to these issues and vast ranges of shades of grey.

It's easy, and perhaps lazy, to come up with an 'so and so said ..' and make the point it therefore must be true, if the argument is not fleshed out a bit.

The 'jungle music' thing was widespread, I think it originated with the church but I have heard several of the old musicianers use the term.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 07:13 AM

fair comments Peter, you are right there are many shades of grey.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 08:24 AM

"Jungle music"- those comments are just horrendous. How anyone could be so ignorant of the reality of racism in 2009, even in ITM, is beyond me. The idea that there's a "tradition" that never changes, just gets corrupted by foreign (Sassenach!) influences, is so benighted that I'd rather give up playing music than associate with such. Fortunately, the trad players I've known know a bit about music too.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 09:12 AM

the comment was made in 1952, by one of the finest musicians who also, composed The Moving Cloud .

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 09:16 AM

I wasn't talking about the original comment, which was bad enough at the time; I referred to the responses in the discussion. Awful.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 10:04 AM

As I said, I have heard the jungle music comment from several older musician born in the first half of the last century. I know where the remarks came from and the priests giving out about dancing to modern music in those tetms had, in my mind, always a lot to do with it. But it always made me cringe, especially coming from people I knew and otherwise liked. It was always a racist slur from the outset and there no excuse for it.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 10:12 AM

As this thread has irrevocably drifted, here's a bit on the Anti Jazz campaign of the 1930s that spawned a lot of that terminology.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 11:46 AM

Mais revenons à nos moutons... (that's in very south eastern Irish of course) we started with an actress complaining about the standard of fiddle playing in a pub. Which seems to merge us into another thread here. Ms BD, though you tell me she was involved in folk music before she was Fay Mouse, doesn't appear to understand what a session is, she's expecting a performance. Now in ITM (Insolent Telling Machine? I tell your weight..) some are the good kind, and some are the bad kind, and some of the others are in between. So are Scottish fiddle sessions so rare even in Scotland that an experienced musician wouldn't know that it's just what happens sometimes when a miscellaneous crowd gets together?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 12:27 PM

if BD thinks Sandy Bell's massed fiddlers are lamentable, she's never experienced the horrors of an English folk festival melodian session playing nursery rhymes

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 04:59 PM

not to mention Ukeleles, enough to make George Formby,rise up and lean on a lamppost

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 07:31 PM

Emmylou Harris and Yehudi Menuhin were both happy to call into Bell's and mix with the fiddlers. I realize they aren't at the same level of celebrity as Barbara Dickson but at least some outsiders seem to like it the way it is.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 05:35 AM

I'd reckon that Emmylou Harris and Yehudi Menuhin were of a much higher level of celebrity than Barbara Dickson. In International terms, at least.
Or were you referring to the fiddlers?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 05:37 AM

I'd suggest PMB does a bit of research about BD before dismissing her as an actress! and with no idea of what a session is?
   cop on pal, you obviously know nothing about this woman or her background- come back when you've checked it out

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 12:23 PM

I wonder if what was found to be lamentable was the imbalance between instrumental pieces,and the singing of songs. It is sometimes difficult to get the scrapers and thumpers to give a singer a bit of space. Been there.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 05:24 PM

Thing is, John, some of those thumpers and scrapers (well, maybe not thumpers - I got chucked off that ITM graveyard Fish and Chipple 14 years ago for dissing a thumper...) are actually exceptionally good musicians. Had you said thumpers and strummers I might have been closer to concurring... There are good and bad in every genre. Bad strummers, bad scrapers, bad thumpers (there are only BAD thumpers in m'humble). I wouldn't go to sessions in which there was a perceivable undercurrent of prejudice against any element (except for thumpers). There's room for all sorts, but no room for either song-takeover merchants or tune-takeover merchants. If you're (a) really terrible, or (b) full of ego, then you may be told to bugger off. Let's have fun. Unless you're making money, there's nothing else for it.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 04:59 AM

song takeover merchants are a rare breed indeed. A feature of tune merchants' behaviour is to play several consecutive tunes.

Singers need to be determined and very well prepared to do this with songs, especially when in a mixed session a singer's efforts are treated as an opportunity for a loud chat or getting a round in.

It's a real-life balance that is based in the lack of respect for others which is so prevalent today.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:39 AM

This really belongs in another thread... perhaps the "no Scottish sessions thread", but slightly off at a tangent from that. As I pointed out in that thread, sessions of the ITM type are tune sessions, because it takes a while for players to get into the swing, to gel, whatever you like to call it. I daresay shanty sessions can be much the same thing, though not knowing many shanties I don't go to them much. And Blues sessions. And improvised jazz sessions, God forbid. Self- organising music is quite a different experience from performance, whether individual or group. You can't criticise music for not being what it never wanted to be.

What we don't know of course is whether BD's criticism was because she was in a bad mood, because she felt superior to less-than-perfect players, because the playing was in fact dire (it does happen) that night or every night, or because she was overcome by a wave of nostalgia for the days when women had to stand outside in the rain. Citizen Bogle above put it well.

Perhaps someone local could nip along one evening and give an informed assessment of the situation. I'd trust Jack Campin's judgement.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:42 AM

shit happens

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:57 AM

Well, well.

I think it's the other way around actually.

In most sessions I attend, there's always a big cry of "Hush!" whenever a singer performs or indicates they wish to do a song. Most musicians listen respectfully and don't chat nor do they go to the bar.

Singers are more likely to chat during "the tunes" as they just regard them as "background". Same as the punters.

I know some singers who deliberately attend tune sessions on their own as they know that the musicians there will kindly allow them to sing a few songs now and again at suitable breaks in between the "tunes". These singers are quite happy as they actually end up getting more songs in than they would in an actual singaround! Very crafty indeed!
:-))

I'm not criticising the above, of course, as long as he/she respects the fact that it is mainly an instrumental session. It's also quite nice to have your own resident singer.
;-))

"A feature of tune merchants' behaviour is to play several consecutive tunes."

These are called "sets".......

Anyway, most regular pubs sessions whether they be instrumental, song based, or a mixture of both usually have a fairly settled format where attendees know what to expect and generally know how to behave. In most situations, this works very well and there usually is enough respect.
Festival and other "one off" sessions are a different beast, of course.

Anyway, the point is that whatever Sandy Bell's was in Barbara's younger days, it is different now. It IS regarded as a music pub and *organised* as such. The main sessions are usually "led" by musicians who have their own "this is MY" nights and "lamentable" musicians aren't generally tolerated for too long in any case.

Of course, there are occasional deviations and an opportunity for a more spontaneous song or tune in between the more organised proceedings. So, there's still scope for some unpredictability and even a little conflict.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:58 AM

Oops, I was replying "Guest",

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 06:46 AM

Well, in response to that I'll hark back to one of Michael's tenets, that a tune session is not a performance. We don't expect the pub customers to be quiet or even take any notice of us at all. In nearly all cases there will be an appropriate level of respect given in that regard in any case, no need to ask. A singer IS performing and requires a change of atmosphere in order for him or her to be heard. But a pub session is not a folk club or a singaround. The participants will often dive in with their tune sets without necessarily consulting first. That's all part of the ethos, the fun of the thing. Informality in keeping the thing going is the name of the game. If you want to sing, that concept has to be understood, and conversely the tunesmiths need to show some forbearance towards singers. If it's all about consciously competing to get in, it isn't much of a session. As for singers, best to leave your twelve-minute 25-verse ballads at home. If there's an obvious session "leader" (we never had one), have a quiet word if you want a song. You can hear how things can go nicely if you listen to Music At Matt Molloy's.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 07:15 AM

Yes, I agree Steve.

The same applies to solo instrumentalists or if and when one of us wishes to give an air or "perform" unknown or favourite piece which isn't one of the regular session tunes for that pub.

It has to be at an appropriate moment and/or when there is a "change of atmosphere otherwise it's also a rude thing to do and will upset the flow of the session.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 07:17 AM

are you taking the Michael

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 07:27 AM

Not really. ;-))

Everything depends on the style of the session and what's usually expected. I actually enjoy some of the more "laid arrangements" when fellow musicians (and singers, if mixed session) invite you to do something yourself that might be a little different(or not).

In a fast tune session, however, you usually have to "go with the flow" much of the time.

There's a place for all sorts of arrangements. That's fine, as long as we know what to expect and act accordingly.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 09:14 AM

I too was responding to "Guest", not seeing that there were several other contributions between his and mine. Spot on, Johnny. If one feels somehow miffed that one didn't manage to have much of a go in the session, one should ask oneself whether one troubled to pick up the vibe, and whether one was feeling a tad more entitled than deserved... Our session was friendly and welcoming*, and by no means riddled with experts, but it had been going for nearly twenty years...

*except to bashers, thumpers, spoon-wielders and dobros... ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 10:22 AM

As someone I know put it, "When I see someone bring a didgeridoo into te session, why is it the words 'arse' and 'shove' come to mind."

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 11:11 AM

Ireland is often quoted as having an ideal musical pub culture & in many ways it has- however noise level in a pub during a set of reels can horrendous & near-impossible to create a 'change of atmosphere'- is that Sandy Bells 2.0 ?

But the atmosphere does not suffer at all in Ireland- it's not lack of respect, rather an indication of self confidence in that music being every much a part of a good night out as a sequence of Abba recordings in an English pub. AND normally in a PUBLIC BAR rather than tucked away from the non-folkies, as is the norm in Britain (there are exceptions).

It's 99pc spontaneous too!- the concept of 'regular session tunes' is alien there & also to me - the other extreme to the Irish approach I experienced a while back in a 'session' of mainly English people in a fairly unwilling Scottish pub, where the leader was turning the pages of his wee book saying we'll do number 22 and then 41- oh dear. I'd hope Sandy Bell's hasn't sunk that far- it was always a good pub with good music, but Barbara's views would gain my respect.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 11:33 AM

"the leader was turning the pages of his wee book saying we'll do number 22 and then 41"

As I said, every session is different and there's a place for everything. What you have described is either a beginner's session or a group of musicians who may have attended the same course or whatever.
There are some like that in Edinburgh and why not?

Even in Sandy Bell's, I think they used to (maybe still do)have an Intermediate "Moothie Session" and a slower fiddle session on alternate Mondays in the early evening but most of the sessions aren't like that.

Barbara was mainly reminiscing about the old days. Basically, she was saying that it wasn't really a music pub as such but sometimes it "happened". However, in those days, it wasn't presumed that one had the *right* to sing or play.
Nowadays, it IS advertised as a music pub with mostly organised sessions. Of course, this won't suit everyone but it is what is.

Back in the day, the customers in old Forest Hill bar were quite varied. There were the "auld worthies/crusties, writers, poets, university students and lecturers, medics (Inspiration for the famous Sandy Bell's man song) and, yes, a few folkie types at the back.

Times have changed and we need to accept this, Barbara included.
As I say, there's actually something for everyone in Edinburgh these days if you know where to look.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 03:02 PM

re the line of mine you repeated above- there is NO PLACE where that insensitive approach should be inflicted on innocent people who just want a drink & chat- a public bar is no place for manuscripts.

An acquaintance of mine once spent years with an old Sussex musician & learned all his tunes, note for note. He became a fine player of the notes, but an older & knowledgeable observer remarked- 'he's learned all the tunes but that's all he's learned' no communication skills

I haven't been to Edinburgh lately & no doubt it's changed since the days of Paddy Bort (RIP) as well!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 03:23 PM

Perhaps someone local could nip along one evening and give an informed assessment of the situation. I'd trust Jack Campin's judgement.

As other people have pointed out, each session slot has a different ethos. I've never been to a lot of them in the week so I can't really compare. Mostly I hang out at the Portobello Tap on Sundays because it's open and heterogeneous, I know the people well, and it's unusually long - I live in Midlothian now and don't like doing more travel than playing.

I haven't heard the playing-by-numbers thing in Edinburgh but it wouldn't surprise me. Some sessions have a very static repertoire that evolves into a fixed tunelist and eventually a book, and the largest trad music educator has ended up creating a cohort of players who are now heading into old age without ever learning to play by ear (despite rather self-righteous insistence to the contrary). You don't see much sheet music in Bell's though.

I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. If you've got an audience, communicate with them.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 03:57 PM

Michael's formulation is perhaps a bit extreme, but I've been known to express similar ideas. In my case, it's mainly in opposition to people who say things like "it's dance music- you've got to play it at dancing speed", or ask why it's just Irish (substitute name of tradition) and why don't we lighten up a bit and do blues* or pop standards, or can't we do Black Velvet Band that dad used to have on a Dubliners LP, or...

So perhaps a better formulation would be something like:

A musicians' session is a conversation between peers who may know each other well, or less well, or have just met for the first time; but who have a common interest and something of a common interest. In the case of old friends, the conversation generally goes along fairly accustomed and familiar lines. With new friends, a lot of time is spent getting to know each other. As in any conversation, shouting, interrupting (except in a friendly and witty way), banging on too long or hogging the limelight, being over- competitive, &c&c are solecisms.

And the conversation isn't totally confined to the players. It's perfectly in order for someone to ask, have you played (say) Madame Bonaparte? And maybe no one has thought of that for a while, so that's added to the fun, especially when someone (usually me) tries to do the arpeggios too fast when they've not played it recently...

*At one festival this year, well fluthered, I ended up playing Irish keyless flute with someone playing blues in a mixed session. It can't have been that bad because he asked me to play with him for his next one. Or maybe he was as drunk as me.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 04:23 PM

a lot of self important twaddle

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 04:33 PM

"I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. If you've got an audience, communicate with them."

We played in the same pub, in a very rural area, for almost twenty years. Yes we did play for each other. We did not perform for an "audience." That does not mean we ignored "outsiders." It was clear that the pub regulars and other visitors appreciated the atmosphere we helped to create. In fact, the landlord was so pleased with the fact that we filled the pub on our nights far more than it was filled on other nights that he doled out unlimited free beer to all of us. We didn't need to try to get the pub customers interested. That just happened naturally. Between tunes, we all chatted a lot with them. That's what happens in good sessions, Jack. You paint a picture that's far too black and white.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 08:11 PM

Hi Jim Bainbridge.

Every pub and/or session venue is different too. The session may be in a lounge or separate room and the punters don't necessarily have to suffer it.

So, yes, there is scope for beginners' sessions and even the use of sheet music, song sheets and so on.

This doesn't happen in Bell's or most of the regular sessions, of course.

In some bars, musicians are encouraged to play as the music is regarded as an attraction. In some other places, the pubs may be doing the musicians a favour by allowing them to play. Circumstances vary.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 08:13 PM

Oops. Last post was Johnny J

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:15 AM

Yhis thread is a perfect ILLUSTRATION of a phenemenon.
Egos getting in the way of music and song.
We can also witness the formation of a new religion, the cult of Michael Gill

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:26 AM

Steve Shaw seems to be playing the part of John TheBaptist

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:57 AM

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare ye the way of the Gill, make his paths straight.’”

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 04:03 AM

Methinks The Sadman doth protest too much, (and too often)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:04 AM

The point i am making is that playing and singing is more important than laying down rules.
To quote Martin Carthy" the only damage you can do to a song is not to sing it"the same applies to music ,sing the tunes sing the songs and enjoy yourself ,nothing else matters
I am happy , i have good health which enables me to play and sing every day

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:08 AM

I think you've missed the point of this thread, Dick.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:13 AM

Laying down of rules was a mistake that MacColl made with the singers Club, he was trying to encourage indigenous trad songs, Cyril Tawney Had a better approach he would go up to singers and compliment them on their singing and say I have just found a song that would suit you.
laying down of rules is a waste of time

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:18 AM

No i have not, good manners whoever you are is a priority.Carthy is a perfect example he would never have done what Dickson did, furthermore this thread was drifted by SteveShaw and i was responding also to the thread drift

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:48 AM

Do you know something, I'm enjoying the conversation in this thread. It's been generally lively and civil with different perspectives, disagreements even, discussed in a positive vein. That is, until Dick waded in with his obsessive anti-Gill nonsense. For those here of slightly under a certain age, I'd just like to point out that many years ago on a forum or two, Dick and Michael didn't, er, exactly get on. Michael was rather prone to ridiculing Dick (ironically, in view of what Dick has said, because Michael was of the view that Dick's ego, how shall we say, outweighed Dick's talent. I make no comment...). Dick doesn't like Michael and would rather we didn't talk about him, hence the little barbs. Thing is, this thread is about Sandy Bell's. Michael, a very talented fiddle player as some here have attested to, has been a big part of Sandy Bell's for many years. I haven't been in touch with Michael for a good few years, and I politely asked here whether he still played at Sandy Bell's. I wouldn't call that thread drift, but hey ho. That's the picture, folks. I doubt whether I've said enough to stifle the barbs, but one thing's for sure: if Michael is reading this he'll be laughing his head off.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 06:06 AM

Dick Gaughan visited Bell's at the period BD was talking about - I think they may have shared a flat nearby, along with other folkies? Gaughan stopped going into pubs after then but I don't recall any negative comments from him about the musicians.

I'm not often in Edinburgh at the right time to hear Michael playing but might give it a try. Or maybe I could leave a link to this discussion on their noticeboard.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 06:29 AM

Sorry for continually "banging on" about this as I often have done on The Session but nowadays, for good or ill, we have all types of sessions and arrangements.

They are certainly not all typical of the so called "traditional tune session" nor a singing "Come All Ye". Nor are they always spontaneous which I think is a shame. Many are organised and even a bit contrived and predictable...You can sometimes set your watch by when a particular tune or song gets played.

There are also specialist and/or "learning sessions" of which some people here might disapprove. They are not designed to entertain the punters and while many are held in pubs they often take place in separate rooms or when the bar would otherwise have been empty.

Jack mentions The Portobello Tap which is one of the most friendly sessions in the area. Everyone is welcome but the general standard of musicianship is usually very good. There is a good mix of music and song. It's not the deliberate intention to "entertain" the customers but most of them usually enjoy what's going on.

There is also a "so called" Intermediate session held fortnightly in Leith Depot which is also very welcoming to all players. I say "so called" because most of the music is still of good standard and not particularly slow either. However, this session is self contained in a side room and is not really for the pub customers as such. They would be welcome to come in, of course, but the room tends to be "jam packed" with actual musicians.

I enjoy going to both of the above when I can but I also like to try other things too. However, the best sessions I've experienced have usually been unpredicatable and spontaneous in terms of both repertoire and the people involved.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 10:59 AM

I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. If you've got an audience, communicate with them."
QUOTE
I agree with you Jack, performing is about communicating, if you make any kind of an arrangement with a pub you have a duty to communicate, you have entered in to some sort pf contract,
If you want to play for yourselves and you want to be exclusive rather than inclusive, do it at home.
If you wish to make rules about how the music should be learned apply it only for yourself, everyone has their own way of learning and should be encouraged in whatever way works for them.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 11:59 AM

Dick, nobody has suggested making rules of any sort. You really are missing the drift of this thread. Starting with wondering why someone didn't like the playing one one particular occasion in one particular pub, we discussed possible reasons for that dislike. We discussed different sorts of playing situations, including mixed song/ music events, sessions reading from music, and solid tune sessions, and how these are different.

You've now twice accused somebody of "betraying the tradition" whatever that means. Are you laying claim to superior knowledge of what constitutes "the tradition"?

As for one's "own way of learning", that is absolutely right... provided that way of learning doesn't interfere with others' (tacitly perhaps) agreed attempt to create their musical experience. Examples might be setting up music stands in an existing aural- tradition session, playing loudly in a style inimical to the occasion, or insisting that everybody stops what they are doing to listen to you. All of which I'm sure you would never do in a real situation.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:03 PM

Maybe just courtesy, spontaneity and an awareness of the situation might sum it all up- the 'folk police' seem to have seriously reduced in numbers, or maybe they just mutter nowadays?

This thread set me wondering when the jazz term 'session' came into use in the folk world? In the mid 60s the moveable feast which was the Marsden Rattlers always used the term for impromptu 'trad' (our definition) musical gathering as in 'fancy a session on Saturday? but none of us had a jazz background??
    Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:34 PM

As far as I know the term came into use as 'session drinking'. A great session meant many pints werd downned. In time the term became applied to a night of music.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:39 PM

Playing music IS communicating, Dick. I'm not clear about what else a bunch of sessioneers has to do in order to fit your "duty to communicate." Beethoven became profoundly deaf yet his late music is one of the greatest communicators in all art. We don't sit in a tight huddle to muffle out our sound. We don't sit in a private back room. We chat to the pub customers in between tune sets. I can't remember a time when we refused to do Wild Rover/ Black Velvet Band/Whiskey in The Jar. We let visitors join in (at our peril occasionally). We do play for ourselves and we don't regard what we do as a public performance. In different settings we had a little band, and in that format, yes, we performed. Weddings, dances, parties and all that. Try to get a handle on what we are saying here, Dick. That would make for a pleasant surprise.

And by their fruits and all that... Do you really think that our lovely landlord, so grateful that we enhanced the atmosphere and pulled in lots of custom over almost twenty years, would have plied us with gallons of free beer if all we did was huddle sour-faced in a corner, refusing to talk to anyone outside our little clique?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:55 PM

The problem is, Steve, that Dick's only really happy when he's playing with himself.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:57 PM

Yebbut let's keep the thread alive!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 01:03 PM

i have not accused anybody of anything PMB.It was Jack who said that
Steve,I understand you very clearly, so very politely, i am now off to a music session good night

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:07 PM

Don't forget to smile sweetly when you get there, Dick. ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 04:18 PM

From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 10:59 AM

I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it.

Sorry, you said it. Just a couple of posts ago, and once before. If you didn't mean it, apologise.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 04:47 PM

Well it was a quote from Jack, though that wasn't perfectly clear. However, Dick did clearly state that he agreed with it.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:20 PM

It's hard to see what's happening down below, from way up there on a high horse.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:24 PM

Apologies, maybe didn't make that quite clear. "You're betraying the tradition" was Mr Miles, alone, in this thread.

I'm sorry to have got so far off the conversation. Can somebody rests it please?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 06:20 AM

Dick can't be bothered quoting in an intelligible way but yes, I wrote that. Whether I wrote what Dick thought I wrote, I wouldn't know.

What I had in mind was players who know a ton of tunes and either make no effort to get a listening audience to value them, or huddle together so their backs say it all - "this is our music and not yours". Being in a separate room doesn't make so much of a statement of exclusivity but it's not a setting I see much point in.

The only time I've seen Michael playing was before they reorganized the seating in Bell's. Like it or not, he was positioned to be a performer playing to the punters as an audience. And they liked what they heard.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 07:05 AM

Anyway Jack, what did Aly Bain get barred for? C'mon, a bit of scandal...

But on the subject. I think quite a few session players (myself included) have a bit of a phobia about performance which is subsumed into the relative anonymity of a session. Other musicians are an educated audience who know what you are trying to do, even when it doesn't exactly come off. At least in some sessions, applause is not really encouraged, except when someone has done an obvious party- piece. As one player said "Don't clap, just throw money", which come to think of it ought to be the NHS's motto.

The players are just setting the atmosphere, like Haydn's at Schloss Esterházy receptions - hey, are we bigheaded or what...

In which context, I see no less than Goethe described chamber music as "four rational people conversing". Which makes a session more like "15 nutters squabbling".

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 11:35 AM

"But on the subject. I think quite a few session players (myself included) have a bit of a phobia about performance which is subsumed into the relative anonymity of a session."

It's a very good point is that. I'm an untutored harmonica player, reasonably proficient I hope, but I didn't come from much of a musical culture. I was forty before I played anything at all in public. I've played in front of an attentive audience on my own or with a single accompanist many times, but even now I can feel like a fish out of water doing that. I feel much safer surrounded by a few other melody players in a session. I've always tried to single out and listen actively to a strong player to whom I can "latch on." I actually think I play better that way than when I play on my own. Very subjective, of course. In a session I feel like I'm collaborating rather than performing. But we've never cut ourselves off from the pub customers, as I've said before. That's just not us. Incidentally, our sessions were never very big. Double figures were a rarity. I've been to big sessions elsewhere of twenty or more - not keen on that vibe.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 03:58 PM

Jack , I would not have used such a strong term as betrayed but the main essence of what you said, I agree with.
A lot of this is appears to be about people own personal performing background , I have spent over 45years performing at folk festivals and clubs and so tend to be thinking about a session and audience appreciation in a particular way. each to their own
Jim Bainbridge who used to be a neigbour of mine, wrote somewhere else on this forum, that an irish musician had criticised him and called him an entertainer, Jim said at the time he was happy with that.
Playing music is about entertaining, it is for ourselves BUT also for others who are not players. that is my opinion, if you have a different opinion,that is fine, Chacun son goût

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 07:42 PM

Well I guess we’ve all been there - those of us that play in sessions that is - those of the spontaneous sort (no set lists,, music stands, sheet music, etc). There’s a wee hiatus between tunes (unusually) so you start into one of your favourite tunes - no, it’s not one that you or a friend just wrote yesterday. It’s one you thought everyone would know - but they don’t! So do you plough on regardless, hoping you’ll get it right, continue what has now become your solo performance, hoping fervently that they’ll all be desperate to know what that tune was and how can they get the dots or a recording of it to learn it, or do you just fizzle out and stop playing, or offer to play something else?
Or do you always ask before you play a tune - does anyone know Joe Bloggs’s Old Boots?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Dec 24 - 08:08 PM

Back almost on thread: it would be interesting to know what was lamentable about those fiddlers that so irked Barbara?
Was it just that they were there, instead of a big bunch of singers singing rousing chorus songs?
Was it because, as happened to my friend and I, they were only playing for themselves, and not interested in anyone else coming into the pub, who, heaven forfend, might actually feel like launching into song?
Or was it their standard of playing? A large proportion of people who play in sessions are not professional musicians so you do get a bit of a spread of abilities, and some whose self-appraisal exceeds their prowess.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 08 Dec 24 - 05:19 AM

This thread has become very bizarre and I'm glad Trish has brought it back on track.

Yes, I'm surprised at some of the tunes people don't know. This seems to happen at some of the very "regular sessions" where they often play the same tunes "week in, week out". So, it's nice to visit different pubs, places, towns etc and while you may still feel nervous about starting a different tune yourself it's great when someone else plays a lesser known tune that you've gone to the trouble to learn.

Re Barbara,

I'm feeling more generous to her as time goes on and as I've thought about things.
She's obviously just reminiscing re how the pub used to be and probably she'd also have objected to poor singers who burst into song "uninvited" or just presumed that they had the "right to sing" as well.

I think her issue is more to do with the fact that it's now an actual *music pub* and her assumption(mistakenly held, I'd argue) that anything goes.

Whether or not she doesn't like the music herself, it's never really *bad* or even "lamentable* in Sandy Bells. Most of the time, it's organised and the regular sessioners will moderate things in their usual friendly way... Especially on a Tuesday night. ;-))))

Of course, it may be boring to non players or not one's choice of repertoire but that's a different thing. As I said, there's plenty of other choices in Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 08 Dec 24 - 05:29 AM

Incidentally, I've just been thinking about the now departed and sadly missed Edinburgh singing duo "Liz and Maggie Cruickshank" who I reckon would have taken a very similar view to Barbara.

They weren't that keen on the tunes either but were happy enough for them to exist at the right time and place.. i.e. not to clash with the singing.
Also, while they actually encouraged singers and singers they would also be critical of those who were really bad or didn't follow proper etiquette.

They knew all about Sandy Bell's too. ;-))

https://youtu.be/ZgnhLpV2-Rk

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:58 AM

Sadly, I never met Liz, but Maggie Cruickshank was a regular at our local folk club and sessions, and yes, she did have strong views on session etiquette and wasn’t afraid to speak out! Definitely “One singer, one song” - you could join in any choruses, but woe betide anyone who sang along with the verses!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 07:18 AM

I `ad that Alec McFadden from the Scottish Traditional Society in my cab the the other day. `e was looking well flustered. `is sporran was back to front and `is face was a picture of disgruntlement.
I said, "What`s up Al? Tesco`s put the prices up again?"
`e said, " No Jim. `ave you seen on Mudcat what that Barbara Dickson said about Sandy Bell`s? Blooming cheek. She doesn`t even play the fiddle"
I said, "Yes I read it. She only expressed `er opinion, Nothing wrong with that. Just note and move on."
`e said, "No, I think she should be `eld to account and apologise to all the up and coming fiddlers."
I said, "What if she doesn`t? You gonna "Cancel" `er.



Whaddam I Like???

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 03:56 PM

For the record, if you think it's relevant in the context of the thread, the incident you refer to, Dick was from a locally eminent uillean piper from Skibbereen. I was playing a pub in Baltimore & played a lovely version of 'St Patrick's Day' I'd heard on Radio Kerry, played by 'King of the Pipers' Leo Rowsome.

The piper said I had it wrong(!) so I pointed out the source- no response except to say 'well you're an entertainer, not a traditional musician. Now I've never claimed to be either, nor have I reached the dizzy heights of BD, but surely I can be both, as can she?

As for Liz & Maggie- I remember them well, and STILL listen with pleasure to the totally unselfconscious delivery of their songs, collected a few years ago on a posthumous double CD- great girls & always tolerant & sociable- by the way, in the mid 60s there really wasn't much music going on- a fiddle was a rarity-- plenty of singing but I never heard much music in the Forrest Hill Bar as was- lovely veggie restaurant across the road as though- quite a revelation to a bunch of 'meat & two veg' Geordie lads

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:08 PM

of course you can be both,Jim, and so you are, and so I am sure BD is

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:15 PM

Just a wee correction there, Jim, if you don’t mind: the CD was not quite totally posthumous: it was launched in October 2012 while Maggie was still alive, and very proud of it she was. By then she was in a care home after a series of strokes, and sadly died just a few weeks later. Liz had passed away in 1990, but Maggie raised huge sums of money in her memory for cancer charities with her annual fundraising concerts for as long as she was able.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:43 PM

Another highlight was the Christmas Carol trail around the pubs of The "Old Town" in which both Liz and Maggie were involved in the earlier days.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Dec 24 - 03:51 AM

I would guess The World's Room gatherings would be the nearest present day equivalent of the Sandy Bell's that BD remembers? Does she ever go there?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 10 Dec 24 - 05:07 AM

Hello Tattie
         you're dead right about Maggie- apologies, I'd just forgotten- I stayed at hers before her strokes & she as just as feisty as ever. I did review the CD for Living Tradition so I should have thought a bit harder- thanks for the correction. It was posthumous only in the sense that it was compiled many years after their joint musical activities had stopped.

For a taste of the Edinburgh song scene in the old Sandy Bell's see if you can get a copy- I can help if not- some great old songs you never hear nowadays- it even includes a song called the 'Sandy Bell's Man'!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Dec 24 - 06:06 AM

Hi Jim,

I linked to the song "Sandy Bell's Man" in my earlier post but this was one of the tracks on the live Sandy Bell's album recorded in the seventies.

I've got Liz and Maggie's CD too but I'll have to check if it's the same recording of the song(It's the same song, of course).

Jack,

Barbara would surely enjoy "The World's Room" and she was very familiar with The Waverley Bar back in the day too. She did consider it to be a "Music Pub".
I think part of her criticism was based around the fact that The Forest Hill Bar(Bell's) wasn't specifically such back in the day although it "happened" sometimes but only under the right circumstances or if invited!

Of course, as we know, all that has changed. Mainly from the seventies onwards but, even then, the music was much more "ancilliary" to the drinking than it is now. ;-))

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Dec 24 - 01:55 PM

No probs Jim: while I was looking up the dates for Maggie and Liz, I came across a lovely Flickr album of photos from the CD launch which took place in Maggie's care home. And yes, Maggie was a generous host to many musicians who came to play in Edinburgh, while she was still fit and in her own home.
Often heard her sing "Sandy Bell's Man" in our local sessions, and other Edinburgh singers still like to do it as well, and probably most other local songbirds will know the chorus at least.
Re "The World's Room" - it's a lovely concept and works very well, but probably far more ordered than BD would remember of Sandy Bell's back then. The guest does a few songs, then those others attending get an opportunity to do a song each: no random jumping in! Mostly unaccompanied singing.
The big session at the Waverley now is George Duff's Sunday afternoon, which started a few years back, and is almost a Hall of Fame of Professional and semi-pro musicians and singers, with a mixture of songs and tunes. I think BD would approve of that one, while some of us humbler mortals might just sit and listen rather than try to join in.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 24 - 09:29 AM

as Jim says, a fiddle and a set of tunes was a rarity while now music dominates -maybe that's what Barbara Dickson wasn't keen on?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Dec 24 - 09:56 AM

When I was in Edinburgh recently I found the trad music in Sandy Bell's and the other folky pubs near it to be extremely variable.

The point is that they have a LOT of music in those pubs. They have weekday afternoon sessions - there's a real demand for live music - it's not just evenings and weekends. Kind of stands to reason that some of it will be hit and miss. Personally I'll take the rough with the smooth. I didn't hear anything terrible though! And heard some pretty impressive musicians too...

And actually it was kind of pleasantly reassuring for a born-and-bred London fiddler like myself to be able to hold my own playing Scottish tunes with Scots fiddlers.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 24 - 10:29 AM

Matt
as you say it must surely be a good thing that there is a lot of trad music to listen to

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 24 - 05:12 AM

'lamentable' isaof Latin origin & in that language meant sorrowful, awful, deplorable- well don't know about you butI've been to sessions like that

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 24 - 10:54 AM

It’s understandable to feel upset about those comments, especially when they don’t seem to align with the spirit of Sandy Bell’s. The essence of places like this isn’t just about the quality of music but the camaraderie, connection, and shared love for tunes and songs. These spaces have always been about community first, and the magic happens when people come together—whether they’re seasoned musicians or just finding their way.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 24 - 01:00 PM

Similarly, creating connections tailored to shared interests and values is key in many aspects of life. Online platforms, like milfs in my area, let individuals find others who resonate with their preferences, fostering meaningful interactions. Here’s hoping any misrepresentation gets cleared up, and the legacy of Sandy Bell’s continues to thrive!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Dec 24 - 07:26 PM

For any visitors to Edinburgh who enquire where to go to hear or play music, I will usually include Sandy Bell’s on the list: and Captains Bar and The Royal Oak are not far away, so if you don’t like one, you can try the others. Some of the other pubs are good too, but not all of them have music every day of the week, whereas these three do.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright
Date: 26 Dec 24 - 10:44 PM

I would prefer a ‘ mixed session’ of songs and tunes to either of one of entirely Lamentable fiddlers or singers , and would prefer anything to those pubs that think everyone wants to watch gormless idiots kick a ball about on a huge screen.