BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:38 PM

People who believe in a guiding hand and a common purpose, outside of normal existence, can't be described as atheist.

Wal, mebbe not. A-theism, by definition, is a conviction of the absence of (a) god. But it is perfectly possible to believe in other kinds of "guiding" influence(s) and spiritual purposes outside of normal existence, without having to invoke some singular entity as the repository of those things.

Some folks, for example, believe that individual spirituality is the core nature of being, and that the combined (and sometimes confused) sum of all those many points of being adds up to the common hologram we choose to consider our mortal plane.

Others believe in cosmic principles which cause recurring patterns of balance to come about in the universe, but do not bother to personalize them into an identity such as the one often ascribed to this "God" fellow.

In any case it is disingenuous to say that "religion" has fallen just because of a shift in favorite kinds.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:45 PM

This news doesn't excite me too much. In fact, I don't care. It's immaterial. What I have been eagerly waiting for is for nasty, quarrelsome, rancorous, opinionated old gits to become a minority in the UK, but I fear I will still have to wait a good deal longer for THAT to happen. (grin) After all, it would be rather like waiting for the French to stop drinking wine. Or for the Germans to stop creating compound words.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:01 PM

"A-theism, by definition, is a conviction of the absence of (a) god."

Not by my definition it isn't, and I am one.

"Some folks, for example, believe that individual spirituality is the core nature of being,"

Indeed. If you want some amusement, try asking them what on earth they're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:04 PM

Amos, your observations are both expansive and concise.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:43 PM

In other words, they are very wide in the narrowest sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:44 PM

Steve:

I don't need to ask, as I understand perfectly.

I suppose you can make the word atheist mean whatever you wish, but you have to pay it a little extra. The Greek prefix "a-" means absence or nullification of, as in adiabatic and amoral, asymmetry, atheism, asexual, and acyclic. IF you espouse a-theism, you are asserting the nonexistence, absence, or nullity of one or more gods, not so? If not, please try to explain the distinction you are making.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:12 PM

Someone said that one with God, is a majority. I expect the poll is pretty much accurate, and actually it is in accordance to what the bible predicts. However, though the Anglicans and Catholics ....at least the wishy washy ones that don't trust the bible anyway half the time...are losing numbers ,where I live there seem to be more churches than pubs.   And what about this idea that we cannot say that our own beliefs are right, what's wrong with that as long as you don't persecute anyone else for believing otherwise. But seems to me, that the most vocal evangelicals are the angry sounding atheists that want to enforce their baseless beliefs on society and education.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:24 PM

You understand perfectly what they're talking about, or you understand perfectly that they're talking hippie bullshit?

The Greek prefix "a-" does indeed mean without. What it does not mean is anti. Atheists of good will don't really go round asserting things. They go around advising what it is intellectually erroneous to be asserting. Generally speaking, we do a lot of indulgent smiling and shrugging. We haven't really got anything to assert. A good atheist will always tell you that he or she fully respects the beliefs of religious people. Why anyone should believe in total nonsense is beyond us, of course, though we understand about suspension of disbelief when it's used to enjoy good films or operas (which often have the silliest possible storylines), and when we are firing up the imaginations of our children (we do have a responsibility to ensure that, ultimately, they know what's myth and what's truth, a responsibility which, sadly, is routinely shirked by people who raise their children within religious faiths).

I don't assert the non-existence of God. I don't do it because I don't know whether there's a God or not. If you think that disqualifies me from being an atheist, tough. You don't know whether there's a God or not. Pete doesn't know whether there's a God or not and Joe Offer doesn't know whether there's a God or not. The Pope doesn't know whether there's a God or not. Everybody's an agnostic or nobody's an agnostic. I prefer the latter, because no human ever born knows whether there's a God or not. It's just that some of us are humble enough to admit it. A priest or brother in a Catholic school isn't humble enough to admit it, otherwise he wouldn't force the children in his care to chant prayers which assert certainties. Agnosticism is a useless word. Atheism is not a useless word but it's a bloody annoying one, because it defines perfectly innocent people in terms of religion, a human invention, and that isn't right. But I still am one. I can live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:33 PM

Steve:

Your expanded explanation clarifies beautifully, for which thanks.

Why you choose the label atheist (absence of god) rather than a-gnostic (not knowing one way or the other) is an interesting puzzle.

If someone says that they --through personal spiritual epiphany or taking mushrooms or wearing green headphones--have come to "know" God, it seems to me that within their own vocabulary they are perfectly within their rights to say and mean it. After all, an Infinite Spiritual Power is not exactly objective, the way a molecule of hydrocarbon is, and therefore not subject to the rules of objective replicability that we hold engineers and scientists to.

It therefore seems to me that those are agnostic who see clearly that they do not know , and those are gnostic who say they do. Unless, of course, they are just lying through their teeth in order to get at choirboys, or some such.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:34 PM

I don't like the idea of "indoctrinating" children. I also don't like schools whose main focus is teaching children how to think, as opposed to what. I believe that people may have to develop that skill without help, and somehow, they manage to do that.

My mom made me go to Sunday school, but it was at a church where questions were encouraged, and literal thinking (think "creationism") wasn't, and the concept of "parables" was clear. We visited other local churches to see how they did things. I went to my friend's Catholic church to with my mom's approval, and thought it was cool and strange. I eventually thinking that there were so many different religions that ONE of them couldn't be the only true way. I think we all look for some righteous path, whether it's religion or just how to treat other people. I think if whatever it is makes us better, than it's a good thing.

In short, I don't care if people belong to my club, as long as they haven't committed to following the Path of the Asshole.

Amos, I get what you're saying, and this is a small quibble, but "atheism" means "without a god". This doesn't necessarily mean a person has been convinced there is no god, only that they have NOT been convinced there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:56 PM

I choose the label atheist for no better reason than that it's a convenient single word which effectively defines one aspect of me without my having to go into labyrinthine explanations every time. It's a word I've never approved of, for the reason I've mentioned twice already in this thread. As for agnostic, it's a word that has lost credibility because it spreads itself far too widely. You may think me an extremist for saying that no-one on the planet knows now, nor ever knew, whether there's a God or not. That would make us all agnostics. To make things worse for this poor word, agnostics can be people who don't give a damn and who have better things to do than think about it. Even worse, agnostics can be cowardly types who are too scared by their religious upbringing to think for themselves, or, worse still and disgustingly expediently, people who just want to retain a bit of insurance. I suppose I have to accept that a few, just a few people, may be genuine agnostics who have explored the matter of God as long and as thoroughly as their intellects allow, but who still can't make up their minds. Well, they should take heart from the fact that they are, at least, honest brokers, and that they have at least something in common with heathens like me. But they're wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:22 PM

This is not a subject that a dyslexic can summarize in four words but I had Steve pegged correctly from the outset which is like fresh air.

Steve, the points Amos makes are not as narrow as a grammatical detail.

I feel I tolerate Gnostics better than they can tolerate me.
If you are in their temple on their dime I suppose they have a right to make whatever demands they deem necessary. That needs to end at the public sidewalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:29 PM

Oh, I was just playing with words, Donuel. I just fancied having a quick spar with Amos. He's been gracious so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:45 PM

If there are professional Etymologists, Amos and Rapparee are giving it away for free in MOM. There are undoubtedly many others but literary excellence is like an alien world due to my innate wiring or lack of it.   
Its funny but
As my actual eyesight improves (by 80%) my peculiar mental picturing diminishes.
Perhaps the brain with less stimuli creates its own stimuli just as it does in isolation tanks.

oops there goes my irrelevancy alarm...but maybe this phenomena is related to religious "vision".

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:48 PM

I'll read through this later. I just dropped in to say thank goodness there are no guest posts. It makes life much easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 25 May 16 - 04:39 AM

""admitting [I] might be wrong in my belief in [my] deity undermining my entire worldview"

Thanks for the reply DmG, interesting stuff. Does admitting you might be wrong in your belief in a deity not mean you have a smidgeon of doubt about the existence of that deity? If it does, how do you address that doubt? Reflection? Scripture?

I'm not sure the analogy with football teams etc is valid though; these are opinions and not beliefs, not the basis for forming a moral code, for example. We accept that other people differ in opinions about football teams and art because we understand these opinions are subjective and however vociferous in our support of our stance, it's only the ignorant who would say theirs was the only correct opinion.

I would class myself as an agnostic, having left religion behind many years ago. I do think about this subject a lot though, but as a scientist I find the scientific method the best way to understand the universe and ourselves, and form a moral framework on the basis of empirical fact. However, science doesn't shelter the homeless or run food banks or give succour to those whom find themselves in distress or suffering; people do that far better and that is why on a local level, churches, mosques and synagogues are vital for our communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 05:43 AM

That can't be gainsaid, Stu, but imagine a theoretical world in which there was no religion, no churches, no synagogues, no mosques. Do you think that we'd shelter the homeless less, run food banks less, give less succour to those in distress? I don't think so. Kudos to religions for doing those works. We atheists/agnostics/ don't-give-a-damners lack the organisation to operate as they do, which is an observation only, not meant as sour grapes. Local religious groups are vital for our communities in today's context. It's the provisos that come with them that I can't stomach. The baggage, if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 11:43 AM

Of course, we can never be sure what a religionless society looks like for sure. However, I think that by and large , in the western world at least, it has been churches and believers who have been in the forefront of social care and transformation of society from the early Christians rescuing abandoned babies in the roman world , through to monastery social and hospital work, through to the Sally army expansive work. .....and much else beside. Of course , that's not to say that atheists don't get involved, but then, they too are part of a society influenced by Christianity , so we can not even be sure they would be the same or not in a religionless society.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 16 - 11:44 AM

Jeri said: "I also don't like schools whose main focus is teaching children how to think, as opposed to what. "...

I'd have to hear that explained in more detail, as it seems just backwards to me. I have often dreamed of an educational system that does teach people, from about 2nd-3grade on HOW to think: meaning the rules of logic, rationality, linguistic clarity to avoid equivocation and the identification of the various informal fallacies

This would not tell anyone what to think, but would merely help them to avoid the most egregious errors in the way they explain & defend the 'whats'. One could still 'believe' in various debatable concepts if they understood the status OF their beliefs... (though I assume 'clear thinking' would generally reduce the number & force of subjective beliefs)

As Steve Shaw has said so well, "no one knows whether there is a god or not". Still, the idea of an "intelligent design" leading to an afterlife, salvation and the efficacy of prayer is very tempting and psychologically helpful for many. In one sense, it does not NEED to be 'true' to be comfortable. I, personally, do not feel that lack of metaphysical beliefs make me, or my life, any better OR worse... I try to make sense & 'do good things' because, as Mammy Yokum in Li'l Abner said, "Good is better'n evil 'cause it's nicer."

   I think I can recognize 'evil' in various ways without any formal religion explaining to me in complex ways thru the intervention of arcane books and theologians who interpret those books for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:17 PM

I also don't like schools whose main focus is teaching children how to think

No, God forbid that children were taught how to think.

If that pertained, we wouldn't have Trump as a presidential candidate, or Climate Change Deniers, or Holocaust Deniers, or the Governors of North Carolina & Maine.............................

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:19 PM

I too assumed jeri had got it the wrong way round. In my opinion, at present, kids are told what to believe , and usually not told the evidence that is against what they are told is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:42 PM

"I have often dreamed of an educational system that does teach people, from about 2nd-3grade on HOW to think: "
Surely that should be "think for themselves" which is a little different from threatening them with the fear of hell-fire and damnation to accept the unproveable and the basis of blind faith.
You may introduce them to all ideas, but one it becomes a dogma it becomes brainwashing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:00 PM

I thought we'd get round to that dreary old cop·out, "Intelligent Design", sooner or later. I've had my say about that gross misnomer on other threads before now. Can you really not see that it's blatantly Unintelligent Design? One of the great consolations of my life, for instance, is having always known that I would not ever have to undergo the dire traumas of childbirth. What can have been intelligent in designing so exiguous an exit for so substantial a delivery, with its concomitant agonising effects,? How could anyone have ever thought that horrible penance, so necessary to the continuation of our very existence, could have been the invention a any sort of 'Loving God' or benevolent deity? Why, they even had to write a whole chapter, to explain it & excuse the cruel old sod of a God, in Genesis; with all that idiocy about fruits of trees of knowledge of good and evil and such patent bummipooze.

'Intelligent design', like Elijah's bumhole! UNINTELLIGENT DESIGN is what we've got. Live with it! -- as in fact we have to do, all the time!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:11 PM

... yeah ... agreed ... I've always believed a benevolent god could thought up a more user friendly way of expelling body wastes...

IBS.. piles.. fissures.. running out of paper.. it's not too much to ask to have been spared all that...???? 🙄

Then again.. evolution has made just as bodged job of it....

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:26 PM

To return somewhat to the title of the thread, do you suppose that, as Christianity declines, Islam rises here in UK? I'm not prejudiced in any way about that (as I've said, my husband is a Muslim) but last week he was actually asked to watch a Government interactive video called 'Prevent' as part of in-school training for all staff.

I had a look at this interesting but rather strange video on Youtube, and it did seem to be aimed at spotting pupils who were being targeted by Muslim fundamentalists/radicals. It appeared to suggest that vulnerable, maybe lonely or depressed young students were in danger of being taken under the wing of recruiters for terrorist groups.
Has anyone come across this 'Prevent' thing? If so, have you any views about it?
My point is that 'religion' may not be falling in UK after all, but that certain sectors of religious adherents are actually flourishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:58 PM

I'll try an answer you questions, Stu, but in a different order than you asked them, because I find that easier!


I'm not sure the analogy with football teams etc is valid though; these are opinions and not beliefs, not the basis for forming a moral code, for example

OK, they aren't a perfect analogy - nothing is, so let's take a moral code example. You and a friend, A.N.Other, are considering whether the UK politician's second homes dealings were immoral, and you both agree that theft in general is wrong, but that laws in general should be obeyed. Let's suppose you feel that the case is so obviously theft that it is immoral despite being legal,while A.N. insists because it is legal it is moral. You are convinced you are right but if you are fair you can't really say A.N. is wrong, just that he weights the parts differently to you, and that he is entitled to that stance as you are to yours.

Does admitting you might be wrong in your belief in a deity not mean you have a smidgeon of doubt about the existence of that deity?
There are at least three levels to that one.
a) The absolute case: "there is no God". Yes, sometimes. Not very often, but it happens. Dylan Thomas wrote "No man believes who cries not 'God is Not!' and there's something in that. One way of getting a deeper understanding of anything involves running into brick walls occasionally ...
b) The philosophical case: "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." One problem with the word 'God' is that it means so many different things to different people. It is very likely if any two people start talking about 'God' they have quite significant differences in understanding. One of the things that people (largely) agree about God, is that his existence (if any) transcends our ordinary experience. Which makes describing it/him in ordinary words that are non-transcendent almost, or entirely, impossible. Tough one that. And in that sense, I reckon it is extremely likely I do not believe in what you mean by the term.
c) Personal interpretation. My understanding of God is always limited, and always partial. That means at times I can see God as fully embodied in a few mathematical equations, at others shown through nature, at others more like human emotions. All are right, all are wrong, all are incomplete. And in this final sense I'd say I 'disbelieve' in God (in some senses), and 'believe' in God (in other senses) in a way that changes hour by hour.   

If it does, how do you address that doubt? Reflection? Scripture?
Primarily reflection. Pete fired a shot at Christians who aren't fundamentally driven by Scripture. I take the hit: I see it more as exemplars than rules. The one bit I take absolutely solidly is common to most religions and usually referred as "The Golden Rule": it's the one about treating others as you would want them to treat you. All the rest, roughly, is examples of that rule in action in particular situations. But the situation you find yourself in today with certain people doing specific things probably doesn't correspond exactly to anything written. So you have to use your intellect and understanding to come up what seems right. (Which is one of the reasons when people talk about pick-and-mix Christians because they seem to choose some bits of the Bible and not others, it brings a wry smile)

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 16 - 02:46 PM

You'll note that *I* did not tout or recommend belief in 'intelligent design'. I merely referred to its widespread acceptance by the hoi polloi as a simple, comfortable concept to cope with the immense complexity of "life, the universe & everything". As a matter of fact, I find it easier to look up, down and around and shake my head at the very notion of it all being 'designed' at all.
   Existence, in all its facets, follows physical laws. No matter where one believes 'everything' came from, once it **happened**, certain relationships between the elements and their elementary particles ensure that certain types of reactions and combinations happen, although in varying amounts in various places. When we observe this, WE are doing so AS a product of the very physical laws we are trying to describe.

Now, as this basic comprehension becomes more widely understood, whether in the UK or anywhere else, it is natural that recourse to metaphysical explanations decreases and church membership also decreases...... although lifelong beliefs and cultural pressures make some of us more... ummm... resistant... to casting off the beliefs of centuries past.

Yes... all that above simply says that 'as science learns more, religion tends to lose its hold'.

As to atheism, agnosticism and skepticism.... people WILL continue to debate definitions. What is important is that **lack of belief**, however you define it or process it, not be treated by believers as 'false'. Non-believers cannot DISprove 'god(s)' anymore than believers can prove him/it/them. In such a system, family, culture, habit and specific educational history will continue to guide every individual's decision about what to think, and if they have learned the basics of the content-neutral HOW to think, they'll do better at coping with life.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 16 - 04:54 PM

Yes, I did note that, Bill. Just thought that once the concept itself had reared its head, its hash had best be settled sooner rather than later.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:40 PM

OK, humo(u)r me while I think out loud about this "intelligent design" thing. I've always been a big fan of logic, and I'm convinced that everything in life follows logical rules. We may not yet understand those rules, but I believe there will come a day when we come to understand that the processes we do not understand, are actually quite logical. Things happen, and they have logical consequences.

The world around us is not absurd. We do not live in Alice's Wonderland.

So, I gather that the Intelligent Design folks think that because everything makes some sort of ultimate sense, that there must be One Smart Feller Up There, who designed it all intelligently, in a way that makes sense.

But I don't think the Designer is external. I think the design is intrinsic. The Rules are descriptive, not prescriptive. Nobody made the Rules. The Rules simply describe the way things work. And that's where language fails me. I guess that all I can say, is that it works because it works. And if it didn't follow the process of logic, it wouldn't work; and therefore it would be absurd and would not exist.

Or does absurdity exist, and is that what we call "chaos"?

But there has to be a better way of saying this. My roommate and I did not get very good grades in College Logic; but I'm convinced that's because we were smarter than the teacher, and he didn't understand us. We actually studied the textbook, which taught a modern approach to logic that the teacher didn't like.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:50 PM

Somewhat disappointed lion, at the tone of your post...sounded more like musket. But yes, I do believe in an originally perfect creation. To me it is an historical account, to you it is an excuse for apparent poor design. Either way, there is design which I presume you think arose by accident of evolution. Now that really is a just so story !

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:53 PM

And I agree with punkfolkrocker that The Designer should have come up with a more aesthetic way of "expelling bodily wastes." But I think that logic is not particularly aesthetic - it's functional, though; and the bodily wastes do get expelled in a fairly logical manner. So, I believe that the universe is logical, but lacks the aesthetic taste of a Designer.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:56 PM

Dmcg, I was rather referring to believing in the text of scripture, in particular it's historical narrative , more than any rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 16 - 07:11 PM

Pete says: However, though the Anglicans and Catholics ....at least the wishy washy ones that don't trust the bible anyway half the time...are losing numbers....

I think the Anglicans and Catholics trust the Bible just fine. They treasure it as a sacred document that is the basis of their faith. They just don't think it was written to be understood in a simplistic, literalistic manner. They see it as an ancient document that needs to be seen within the context in which it was written. To be understood, it needs to be studied in the same way all ancient documents should be studied - within historical, textual, linguistic, and literary context. But no, it is not a fraud and it is not untrue. It just needs to be understood.

And by the way, many modern Evangelical theologians are beginning to use modern critical tools for Scripture study - historical, textual, linguistic, literary, and redaction criticism. As a result, they came up with the New International Version (NIV), a translation that is intellectually sound and far more understandable than the 1607 King James Version.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 08:19 PM

Well, on the matter of bodily waste, etc., I think there's something rather Victorian about our somewhat contrived abhorrence. Most other animals don't see things the same way at all. Dogs smell each other's bottoms as a means of recognition and use their urine as a territorial marker. Pigs are very fastidious animals but think nothing of rummaging in pigshit-infested earth In order to find a tasty root or two. Human manure is a valuable soil improver as it happens, and there's absolutely nothing on earth better for starting a compost heap than human urine. And, outrageously, as an inveterate wine-drinker, I'd counsel you to taste your favourite pinot noir from a new perspective. Tell me if you dare that it doesn't have that pleasurable tang of that sucked infant finger that's just been up your own bum...

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 May 16 - 09:15 PM

Senoufou:
I have some experience of Muslim societies, and as you say, it's oppressive. The whole community trundles off to the mosque at dawn

Not in Turkey or Bosnia they don't. The majority Islamic tendency in the Balkans (and about 25% of the Turkish population) is Alevi/Bektashi or similar and they don't go to mosques at all.

Your experience is of parts of Africa where Islam has had to adopt some of the most repressive aspects of feudal animism for the sake of maintaining the pre-existing class structure. African Christianity is often pretty brutal in the same way (and just as enthusiastic about exporting misogyny and homophobia to the rest of the world).

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:18 AM

"The whole community trundles off to the mosque at dawn, and for all the prayer times, and fasting during Ramadan etc. I know several who aren't a bit enthusiastic but daren't opt out for fear of condemnation."
That could be a perfect description of the Catholic Church within any Catholic country well within my lifetime, to which yo could add a visit from the priest asking why you hadn't been at mass last Sunday, and if it happened too often, having your name read out in public.
Non attendance could affect your status within the community, even leading to your employment.
Things have changed now, not because the church has seen the error of its ways, but because widespread misbehavior by a large number of the clergy has effected their status within the communities.
Nowadays they look at the poor attendances and yearn for the good old days of what was in fact oppressive in the extreme - the oppressive genii is merely in the bottle waiting to be released, not gone away and one way it hopes for that release is through our children.
In 'modern' Ireland, over 90% of our primary schools are owned and run by the Catholic Church.
In rural areas, if you wish to have your young children taught in a non-denominational school you have to put their name on a waiting list and hope for an available place - if you are lucky enough to find a place, you often have to be prepared to transport them up to 40 miles.
Some overcrowded Church-run schools are demanding evidence of Confirmation before they will accept children.
Despite the clerical abuse and Magdalene Laundry scandals, which still bubble away under the surface, the Church is fighting tooth and nail to hold on tho the minds of children.
Let's not be too smug about the oppressive nature of other religions - "let he who is without guilt" - as the feller said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:39 AM

I agree Jack, my experience is limited to W African Muslims. And my husband is Sunni. And I have found that animism is alive and well in Africa, despite the efforts of imams and Christian leaders to stamp it out.
Regarding Catholicism in Ireland, my mother was a Catholic from Cork and was subjected to exactly that sort of repressive control by the priest. On coming to England, she promptly joined the CofE and never looked back.
But the initial post was concerned only with the UK. My point was that while Christianity is diminishing here, Muslims are flourishing and some sorts are actively recruiting young folk to their cause, which is maybe emphasised by the Government video for all school staff warning about it.
As an aside, I have always found blooming teeth to be a major design fault in the human body. Several of mine are loose, and no doubt I shall need dentures shortly. I wonder if an update (like Windows 10) could be engineered, with no uteri, teeth, bottoms, joints or digestive tracts. These seem to be the parts that cause most trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:30 AM

"But the initial post was concerned only with the UK"
Fine -can't argue with that, but my point has always been regarding religion is that it is a religious problem which knows no national boundaries.
People's beliefs are worth protecting, whether you share them or not, it's the misuse of those beliefs that's the problem and that's applicable to any and all religions.
I have no argument with people trundling to the mosques, temples synagogues or churches if it's a voluntary act.
It only becomes "oppressive" if it is done at gunpoint, or through spiritual conditioning and blackmail.
The overall danger from all religions is when they become toxically mixed with politics - that's what makes headlines and overfills refugee boats.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:54 PM

DMcG - thanks for taking the time to answer those questions, and your candor whilst doing so. Much of what you've written chimes with me as reading your post I realised I thought similarly before I came to the conclusion that Christianity was not for me, after a long period of reflection.


"And if it didn't follow the process of logic, it wouldn't work; and therefore it would be absurd and would not exist."

Logic is a human construct, a function of language and thought and cannot be applied to natural processes at all. Your designer eschews logic as it is not present in any natural system. Natural systems self-organise of course, but this is the result of physics and chemistry, not the guiding hand of a designer and perhaps this might look like it's adhering to logic, but it's not.

Your thought process holds water though, as the idea that all natural processes in the universe are subject to laws contained in a huge set of rules drawn up by a omniscient, all-powerful supernatural being is not in the slightest bit logical, is utterly absurd and and of course neither the rules, or according to current evidence any gods, exist.


"To me it is an historical account"

Demonstrating your self-delusion doesn't help your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:59 PM

@ Pete7* -- Have just looked back at my last post. Afraid I can't make out what you find objectionable in its tone.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:08 PM

Well joe, I soppose the bible is treasured by those that see it as a virtue to reinterpret the plain understanding of scripture . And even Dawkins likes the kjv as literature. I am quite aware that evangelical scholars use various systems of study , and that is good . It is only when the plain meaning is jettisoned in favour of secular consensus that it is wrong. And to suggest that those of us who read scripture according to its plain meaning, and genre is simplistic is begging the question. However, when the text is clearly narrative , and is demonstrably so by textual criticism, we do take that literally.    And it seems to be churches that do retain traditional acceptance of the bible narrative and teaching ,that are often doing better and popping up all over the place. Success of course is not the measure of truth, but it does have a bearing on the OP.                         ........demonstrating your self delusion.....and begging the question don't help your argument either, stu.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:15 PM

Where did you copy and paste most of that from, Pete? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:38 PM

Has anyone come across this 'Prevent' thing?

Thought police. Really seriously evil.

There are a lot of papers about it on the sacc.org.uk site.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 16 - 10:38 PM

Human nature evolved along tribal community lines for the last 70,000 years with some success. While this survival technique still exists, societal modernism tends toward smaller groups or a solitary lifestyle.

We are adapted to a tribal life but experience it rarely unless it is related to; church, military squad comradery, sport fans, concert goers and political rallies. The TV is now the tribal story teller and the stories preach primarily fear.

We like the communal or tribal experience. When people like soldiers suddenly lose this experience it is a it like PTS. The high suicide rate is among those who have not even experienced active warfare.

When a well adjusted person serves in a religious setting there is very little to worry about. But when a deeply flawed individual seeks out a religious post or education they often choose the worst instincts of competition, arrogance and power. In a sect that espouses greed or god's warrior status, they can be tipped over the edge of reason fairly easily. Tolerance turns to intolerance and empathy can be twisted to be evil. A made up rumor can cause books at home to be put as far away from the holy books as possible until in the extreme, book burning could become the new normal.

The book ends of human nature are the bad apples and the heroic leaders, in-between are the rest of us.

There are bad sects and good sects, each sought out by like minded people. Freedom of religion is no more important than a freedom from religion, each for the right reasons.

A rating system for the sects that are most humane

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 16 - 10:42 PM

...a rating system of sects that are the most humane may be something we should seriously consider.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:36 AM

Ah Jack, I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the video rather sinister. It seemed to be encouraging people to watch each other covertly and make dangerous judgements on their observations.
Thanks for the link; I'll look it up.

The video was somewhat wasted on my husband. His English (especially reading) isn't all that wonderful and he hadn't a clue what it was supposed to be about. The government actually paid him for the hour he had to spend, in company with other school cleaners, which I found rather strange. They never come across any pupils, as the school is shut when they arrive. Also, he's a Muslim himself, and felt a bit uneasy that people may be 'watching him' in case he tries to indoctrinate anybody!

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:23 AM

Trying to make sense of the Bible is clearly a waste of time with so many different - and ever changing - interpretation of what this and that bit of scripture means.
For example, I was on a thread recently, and a poster wrote that the British Queen won't be going to heaven because, to "quote" Jesus:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Well, this caused an outcry among Christian.

One poster replied that Jesus had been exaggerating when he made the above statement.

Another poster claimed that the Queen isn't really rich! ( She's usually quoted as being the richest women in the UK).

The whole Bible thing is a huge joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:34 AM

Who else remembers "Bumper Fun Books"...??? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:46 AM

"The whole Bible thing is a huge joke."
In fairness quite an ENTERTAINING joke.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:53 AM

In the UK people are also deeply cynical about the intentions of the establishment and it's institutions, such as the church. The fact the church is so far behind the general feeling of the people makes it irrelevant; the ridiculous fuss over women bishops for example, it's resistance to gay marriage for another.

It's obvious the powers that be are working to their own agenda, and when you get a load of old men trying to cling to power by oppressing others then that's guaranteed to make sure people don't take the church seriously.