“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:11 AM

Frances O Neill was thinking of the preservation of a body of music he feared in danger of getting lost. And so were, and are, other collectors. And that is just what he did.
His target audience consisted of traditional musicians who knew what was what. As a result loads of tunes went onto wide circulation that would otherwise have died out. Same can be said for the Breathnach collection, CRE has helped a vast body of tunes into wide circulation.

A great example is 'the Old Grey Goose', a six or so parter that O'Neil cobbled together by adding stray parts to a usual two paryer. It worked out great, Coleman recorded it and now we all play it the way O"Neill published it. That is what he was thinking.

It's certainly much easier to learn tunes by immersion but I can say I have lifted a fair amount of great tunes from several collections that I would not have encountered otherwise. And they have enriched my repertoire greatly.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:23 AM

I still have loads of books and almost as much "loose" sheet music which I've downloaded or been given at workshops, gatherings, or to prepare for concerts.

At the moment, I keep a couple of folders containing "special tunes" which include my favourites and others I especially want to work on at the time. Unfortunately, these are becoming a bit full too.
Of course, there are several hundred and more which I have learned but don't have immediately to hand any more.

However, I learn tunes by a variety of means and would never treat the written notation as "gospel". Even if I felt obliged to "play as written" for a particular performance that would just be a "one off" and I will always end up doing it my own way in the end.

I still buy books and CDs(see my more recent thread) although not as often and it's usually because I want to support the composer, performer, or organisation. Quite often, I'll only learn one or two tunes but it's the thought that counts. ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 07:16 AM

> You will or should adapt it to your own style
> whether or not you learn it by ear or from the dots.

Guilty as charged. I can't get Sandy Denny's ornamentation on A Sailor's Life out of my head, though I try to make up for it in the two extra verses I swiped from elsewhere and spliced in.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 09:26 AM

Point taken about the good captain, Peter, though your aside "...His target audience consisted of traditional musicians who knew what was what..." is apposite. Apropos of Irish tunes, I've see it stated that the tradition was saved largely by Irish-American musicians, in the US, in the early 20th century. Maybe.

You've picked up tunes from the written note, Peter. The point is, you know what's what. ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 10:28 AM

the irish instrumental tradtion was considered BY some to have been wrecked by the influence of sligo musicians like coleman who had moved to USA
Patrick Kelly was one who said that, and then there was neilidh Boylw who wouldnt record until KENNEDY Let him have a rant about the stte of irish music, which he called jungle music.
so Steve, it all depends on which trad musicians opinion you are listening to.
as for Michael Gill?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: meself
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 11:15 AM

Wasn't it American pop music (of the time) that he was calling 'jungle music'? I would have thought he was complaining about its popularity in Ireland - was he also saying it was influencing trad music itself? I only heard that rant once, many years ago now ....

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 12:49 PM

no

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie Mor
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 01:34 PM

I have met and played a session in Sandy Bell's with Michael Gill, which may give me an advantage over most people participating in this particular thread. He was an excellent Irish fiddle player, so any opinions he held came from years of practical knowledge and being very able to "walk the walk". He certainly could never have been described as a "lamentable" player. I have no idea of his opinions of the Irish fiddle players mentioned above, and fail utterly to see their relevance to any discussion about the standard of fiddle playing recently encountered by Barbara Dickson in Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 02:02 PM

They have no relevance here but Sandman seems to always go to Neilidh Boyle. Séamus Ennis recorded Boyle well before he introduced Kennedy to him, but that another story.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 03:23 PM

I Never said he was a bad player.
guestvabove
i also mentioned Patrick kelly this was in relation to Steve Shaw and his comment, i said quote
the irish instrumental tradition was considered BY some to have been wrecked by the influence of sligo musicians like coleman who had moved to USA

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 06:06 PM

Well, rather than latching on to unsupported snippets of comments and "he said thats" of old (not saying they are inaccurate...just unsupported...), I suggest a read of a very interesting thread from 15 years ago go on TheSession (entitled "Uploads - Boyle, Casey, Clancy and Doherty"), with special attention to the "jungle music" angle. There's plenty of nuance there that's currently evading us in this thread.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 02:23 AM

Patrick Kelly said the worst thing that happened to irish fiddle music was the the copying of recotdings of Morrison and Coleman.

Lang Johnnie mor, Paddy Cronin walked the walk too, and he had no problem with sheet music

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 06:21 AM

"the irish instrumental tradition was considered BY some to have been wrecked by the influence of sligo musicians like coleman who had moved to USA "

Citation needed.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 06:54 AM

You know, Irish Traditional Music is a broad and diverse church. There's such a variety of opinions on all sort of thing it is easy to find a quote to support an opinion.
Sure, some will have said the influence of the 78rpms was detrimental to some aspects, the old country fiddlers putting down their instruments because they could never come up to that standard is one that is brought up some times. On the other hand some of the finest exponents of the art listened to the 78s in minute detail and enriched their playing with new tools and means of expression. Were Casey, Canny and the rest of them misguided? I don't think so.

In other words, there are many sides to these issues and vast ranges of shades of grey.

It's easy, and perhaps lazy, to come up with an 'so and so said ..' and make the point it therefore must be true, if the argument is not fleshed out a bit.

The 'jungle music' thing was widespread, I think it originated with the church but I have heard several of the old musicianers use the term.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 07:13 AM

fair comments Peter, you are right there are many shades of grey.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 08:24 AM

"Jungle music"- those comments are just horrendous. How anyone could be so ignorant of the reality of racism in 2009, even in ITM, is beyond me. The idea that there's a "tradition" that never changes, just gets corrupted by foreign (Sassenach!) influences, is so benighted that I'd rather give up playing music than associate with such. Fortunately, the trad players I've known know a bit about music too.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 09:12 AM

the comment was made in 1952, by one of the finest musicians who also, composed The Moving Cloud .

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 09:16 AM

I wasn't talking about the original comment, which was bad enough at the time; I referred to the responses in the discussion. Awful.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 10:04 AM

As I said, I have heard the jungle music comment from several older musician born in the first half of the last century. I know where the remarks came from and the priests giving out about dancing to modern music in those tetms had, in my mind, always a lot to do with it. But it always made me cringe, especially coming from people I knew and otherwise liked. It was always a racist slur from the outset and there no excuse for it.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 10:12 AM

As this thread has irrevocably drifted, here's a bit on the Anti Jazz campaign of the 1930s that spawned a lot of that terminology.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 11:46 AM

Mais revenons à nos moutons... (that's in very south eastern Irish of course) we started with an actress complaining about the standard of fiddle playing in a pub. Which seems to merge us into another thread here. Ms BD, though you tell me she was involved in folk music before she was Fay Mouse, doesn't appear to understand what a session is, she's expecting a performance. Now in ITM (Insolent Telling Machine? I tell your weight..) some are the good kind, and some are the bad kind, and some of the others are in between. So are Scottish fiddle sessions so rare even in Scotland that an experienced musician wouldn't know that it's just what happens sometimes when a miscellaneous crowd gets together?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 12:27 PM

if BD thinks Sandy Bell's massed fiddlers are lamentable, she's never experienced the horrors of an English folk festival melodian session playing nursery rhymes

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 04:59 PM

not to mention Ukeleles, enough to make George Formby,rise up and lean on a lamppost

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 07:31 PM

Emmylou Harris and Yehudi Menuhin were both happy to call into Bell's and mix with the fiddlers. I realize they aren't at the same level of celebrity as Barbara Dickson but at least some outsiders seem to like it the way it is.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 05:35 AM

I'd reckon that Emmylou Harris and Yehudi Menuhin were of a much higher level of celebrity than Barbara Dickson. In International terms, at least.
Or were you referring to the fiddlers?

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 05:37 AM

I'd suggest PMB does a bit of research about BD before dismissing her as an actress! and with no idea of what a session is?
   cop on pal, you obviously know nothing about this woman or her background- come back when you've checked it out

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 12:23 PM

I wonder if what was found to be lamentable was the imbalance between instrumental pieces,and the singing of songs. It is sometimes difficult to get the scrapers and thumpers to give a singer a bit of space. Been there.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 24 - 05:24 PM

Thing is, John, some of those thumpers and scrapers (well, maybe not thumpers - I got chucked off that ITM graveyard Fish and Chipple 14 years ago for dissing a thumper...) are actually exceptionally good musicians. Had you said thumpers and strummers I might have been closer to concurring... There are good and bad in every genre. Bad strummers, bad scrapers, bad thumpers (there are only BAD thumpers in m'humble). I wouldn't go to sessions in which there was a perceivable undercurrent of prejudice against any element (except for thumpers). There's room for all sorts, but no room for either song-takeover merchants or tune-takeover merchants. If you're (a) really terrible, or (b) full of ego, then you may be told to bugger off. Let's have fun. Unless you're making money, there's nothing else for it.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 04:59 AM

song takeover merchants are a rare breed indeed. A feature of tune merchants' behaviour is to play several consecutive tunes.

Singers need to be determined and very well prepared to do this with songs, especially when in a mixed session a singer's efforts are treated as an opportunity for a loud chat or getting a round in.

It's a real-life balance that is based in the lack of respect for others which is so prevalent today.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:39 AM

This really belongs in another thread... perhaps the "no Scottish sessions thread", but slightly off at a tangent from that. As I pointed out in that thread, sessions of the ITM type are tune sessions, because it takes a while for players to get into the swing, to gel, whatever you like to call it. I daresay shanty sessions can be much the same thing, though not knowing many shanties I don't go to them much. And Blues sessions. And improvised jazz sessions, God forbid. Self- organising music is quite a different experience from performance, whether individual or group. You can't criticise music for not being what it never wanted to be.

What we don't know of course is whether BD's criticism was because she was in a bad mood, because she felt superior to less-than-perfect players, because the playing was in fact dire (it does happen) that night or every night, or because she was overcome by a wave of nostalgia for the days when women had to stand outside in the rain. Citizen Bogle above put it well.

Perhaps someone local could nip along one evening and give an informed assessment of the situation. I'd trust Jack Campin's judgement.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:42 AM

shit happens

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:57 AM

Well, well.

I think it's the other way around actually.

In most sessions I attend, there's always a big cry of "Hush!" whenever a singer performs or indicates they wish to do a song. Most musicians listen respectfully and don't chat nor do they go to the bar.

Singers are more likely to chat during "the tunes" as they just regard them as "background". Same as the punters.

I know some singers who deliberately attend tune sessions on their own as they know that the musicians there will kindly allow them to sing a few songs now and again at suitable breaks in between the "tunes". These singers are quite happy as they actually end up getting more songs in than they would in an actual singaround! Very crafty indeed!
:-))

I'm not criticising the above, of course, as long as he/she respects the fact that it is mainly an instrumental session. It's also quite nice to have your own resident singer.
;-))

"A feature of tune merchants' behaviour is to play several consecutive tunes."

These are called "sets".......

Anyway, most regular pubs sessions whether they be instrumental, song based, or a mixture of both usually have a fairly settled format where attendees know what to expect and generally know how to behave. In most situations, this works very well and there usually is enough respect.
Festival and other "one off" sessions are a different beast, of course.

Anyway, the point is that whatever Sandy Bell's was in Barbara's younger days, it is different now. It IS regarded as a music pub and *organised* as such. The main sessions are usually "led" by musicians who have their own "this is MY" nights and "lamentable" musicians aren't generally tolerated for too long in any case.

Of course, there are occasional deviations and an opportunity for a more spontaneous song or tune in between the more organised proceedings. So, there's still scope for some unpredictability and even a little conflict.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 05:58 AM

Oops, I was replying "Guest",

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 06:46 AM

Well, in response to that I'll hark back to one of Michael's tenets, that a tune session is not a performance. We don't expect the pub customers to be quiet or even take any notice of us at all. In nearly all cases there will be an appropriate level of respect given in that regard in any case, no need to ask. A singer IS performing and requires a change of atmosphere in order for him or her to be heard. But a pub session is not a folk club or a singaround. The participants will often dive in with their tune sets without necessarily consulting first. That's all part of the ethos, the fun of the thing. Informality in keeping the thing going is the name of the game. If you want to sing, that concept has to be understood, and conversely the tunesmiths need to show some forbearance towards singers. If it's all about consciously competing to get in, it isn't much of a session. As for singers, best to leave your twelve-minute 25-verse ballads at home. If there's an obvious session "leader" (we never had one), have a quiet word if you want a song. You can hear how things can go nicely if you listen to Music At Matt Molloy's.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 07:15 AM

Yes, I agree Steve.

The same applies to solo instrumentalists or if and when one of us wishes to give an air or "perform" unknown or favourite piece which isn't one of the regular session tunes for that pub.

It has to be at an appropriate moment and/or when there is a "change of atmosphere otherwise it's also a rude thing to do and will upset the flow of the session.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 07:17 AM

are you taking the Michael

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 07:27 AM

Not really. ;-))

Everything depends on the style of the session and what's usually expected. I actually enjoy some of the more "laid arrangements" when fellow musicians (and singers, if mixed session) invite you to do something yourself that might be a little different(or not).

In a fast tune session, however, you usually have to "go with the flow" much of the time.

There's a place for all sorts of arrangements. That's fine, as long as we know what to expect and act accordingly.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 09:14 AM

I too was responding to "Guest", not seeing that there were several other contributions between his and mine. Spot on, Johnny. If one feels somehow miffed that one didn't manage to have much of a go in the session, one should ask oneself whether one troubled to pick up the vibe, and whether one was feeling a tad more entitled than deserved... Our session was friendly and welcoming*, and by no means riddled with experts, but it had been going for nearly twenty years...

*except to bashers, thumpers, spoon-wielders and dobros... ;-)

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 10:22 AM

As someone I know put it, "When I see someone bring a didgeridoo into te session, why is it the words 'arse' and 'shove' come to mind."

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 11:11 AM

Ireland is often quoted as having an ideal musical pub culture & in many ways it has- however noise level in a pub during a set of reels can horrendous & near-impossible to create a 'change of atmosphere'- is that Sandy Bells 2.0 ?

But the atmosphere does not suffer at all in Ireland- it's not lack of respect, rather an indication of self confidence in that music being every much a part of a good night out as a sequence of Abba recordings in an English pub. AND normally in a PUBLIC BAR rather than tucked away from the non-folkies, as is the norm in Britain (there are exceptions).

It's 99pc spontaneous too!- the concept of 'regular session tunes' is alien there & also to me - the other extreme to the Irish approach I experienced a while back in a 'session' of mainly English people in a fairly unwilling Scottish pub, where the leader was turning the pages of his wee book saying we'll do number 22 and then 41- oh dear. I'd hope Sandy Bell's hasn't sunk that far- it was always a good pub with good music, but Barbara's views would gain my respect.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 11:33 AM

"the leader was turning the pages of his wee book saying we'll do number 22 and then 41"

As I said, every session is different and there's a place for everything. What you have described is either a beginner's session or a group of musicians who may have attended the same course or whatever.
There are some like that in Edinburgh and why not?

Even in Sandy Bell's, I think they used to (maybe still do)have an Intermediate "Moothie Session" and a slower fiddle session on alternate Mondays in the early evening but most of the sessions aren't like that.

Barbara was mainly reminiscing about the old days. Basically, she was saying that it wasn't really a music pub as such but sometimes it "happened". However, in those days, it wasn't presumed that one had the *right* to sing or play.
Nowadays, it IS advertised as a music pub with mostly organised sessions. Of course, this won't suit everyone but it is what is.

Back in the day, the customers in old Forest Hill bar were quite varied. There were the "auld worthies/crusties, writers, poets, university students and lecturers, medics (Inspiration for the famous Sandy Bell's man song) and, yes, a few folkie types at the back.

Times have changed and we need to accept this, Barbara included.
As I say, there's actually something for everyone in Edinburgh these days if you know where to look.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 03:02 PM

re the line of mine you repeated above- there is NO PLACE where that insensitive approach should be inflicted on innocent people who just want a drink & chat- a public bar is no place for manuscripts.

An acquaintance of mine once spent years with an old Sussex musician & learned all his tunes, note for note. He became a fine player of the notes, but an older & knowledgeable observer remarked- 'he's learned all the tunes but that's all he's learned' no communication skills

I haven't been to Edinburgh lately & no doubt it's changed since the days of Paddy Bort (RIP) as well!

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 03:23 PM

Perhaps someone local could nip along one evening and give an informed assessment of the situation. I'd trust Jack Campin's judgement.

As other people have pointed out, each session slot has a different ethos. I've never been to a lot of them in the week so I can't really compare. Mostly I hang out at the Portobello Tap on Sundays because it's open and heterogeneous, I know the people well, and it's unusually long - I live in Midlothian now and don't like doing more travel than playing.

I haven't heard the playing-by-numbers thing in Edinburgh but it wouldn't surprise me. Some sessions have a very static repertoire that evolves into a fixed tunelist and eventually a book, and the largest trad music educator has ended up creating a cohort of players who are now heading into old age without ever learning to play by ear (despite rather self-righteous insistence to the contrary). You don't see much sheet music in Bell's though.

I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. If you've got an audience, communicate with them.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 03:57 PM

Michael's formulation is perhaps a bit extreme, but I've been known to express similar ideas. In my case, it's mainly in opposition to people who say things like "it's dance music- you've got to play it at dancing speed", or ask why it's just Irish (substitute name of tradition) and why don't we lighten up a bit and do blues* or pop standards, or can't we do Black Velvet Band that dad used to have on a Dubliners LP, or...

So perhaps a better formulation would be something like:

A musicians' session is a conversation between peers who may know each other well, or less well, or have just met for the first time; but who have a common interest and something of a common interest. In the case of old friends, the conversation generally goes along fairly accustomed and familiar lines. With new friends, a lot of time is spent getting to know each other. As in any conversation, shouting, interrupting (except in a friendly and witty way), banging on too long or hogging the limelight, being over- competitive, &c&c are solecisms.

And the conversation isn't totally confined to the players. It's perfectly in order for someone to ask, have you played (say) Madame Bonaparte? And maybe no one has thought of that for a while, so that's added to the fun, especially when someone (usually me) tries to do the arpeggios too fast when they've not played it recently...

*At one festival this year, well fluthered, I ended up playing Irish keyless flute with someone playing blues in a mixed session. It can't have been that bad because he asked me to play with him for his next one. Or maybe he was as drunk as me.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 04:23 PM

a lot of self important twaddle

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 04:33 PM

"I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. If you've got an audience, communicate with them."

We played in the same pub, in a very rural area, for almost twenty years. Yes we did play for each other. We did not perform for an "audience." That does not mean we ignored "outsiders." It was clear that the pub regulars and other visitors appreciated the atmosphere we helped to create. In fact, the landlord was so pleased with the fact that we filled the pub on our nights far more than it was filled on other nights that he doled out unlimited free beer to all of us. We didn't need to try to get the pub customers interested. That just happened naturally. Between tunes, we all chatted a lot with them. That's what happens in good sessions, Jack. You paint a picture that's far too black and white.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 08:11 PM

Hi Jim Bainbridge.

Every pub and/or session venue is different too. The session may be in a lounge or separate room and the punters don't necessarily have to suffer it.

So, yes, there is scope for beginners' sessions and even the use of sheet music, song sheets and so on.

This doesn't happen in Bell's or most of the regular sessions, of course.

In some bars, musicians are encouraged to play as the music is regarded as an attraction. In some other places, the pubs may be doing the musicians a favour by allowing them to play. Circumstances vary.

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 24 - 08:13 PM

Oops. Last post was Johnny J

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:15 AM

Yhis thread is a perfect ILLUSTRATION of a phenemenon.
Egos getting in the way of music and song.
We can also witness the formation of a new religion, the cult of Michael Gill

Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:26 AM

Steve Shaw seems to be playing the part of John TheBaptist