one instrument aids learning of another

Subject: one instrument aids learningof another
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 26 - 01:40 AM

Many years ago I played drums in Ceilidh Bands, in the process of learning 5 stroke rolls [leftr right left rightl]eft]... [right left right left right] I learned very good hand co ordination, this helped me with learning the English Concertina, where the music scales go from left to right and right to left
Does anyone else have examples of how learning one instrument helped with another.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Jul 26 - 05:39 AM

After playing the guitar for a few years I took up the five string banjo and some of the skills did transfer quite easily - this was until In tried the style called frailing.
It's the opposite to what a fingerstyle guitarist normally does in that it involves bringing the fingernails down on the bottom 4 strings rather than picking up.
I went to a workshop in Whitby and the person who was running it said "I can always recognise the guitarists" - a certain amount of unlearning was needed.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Jul 26 - 07:03 AM

Similarly, after I took up clawhammer banjo I found that I could call up a downward chuck on the off beat when playing finger style guitar.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: pattyClink
Date: 11 Jul 26 - 03:53 PM

Have also noticed that it is quick to get functional on a banjo if you've been playing guitar. But not to get 'proper' picking form.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jul 26 - 04:48 PM

*Concur*, Patty. When I were young, I picked up the family banjo, got given the (red) Pete Seeger book, and worked out what I now call my "thunderpick" style. After that came the guitar, which took (me) over. Now I've retired and have the time, I'm attempting to work out proper banjo picking styles, but my fingers simply refuse to understand --- I'm fighting half a century of muscle memory.

The ukelele, on the other hand: once I realised it's basically a guitar with two missing strings, at the wrong pitch, I was away. I write down the (transposed) chords I'm used to fingering on the guitar, and muscle memory's on my side again.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 26 - 04:52 PM

I too found guitar picking helped banjo,for up picking, and then using banjo g tuning helped g tuning on guitar, but i found i had to damp the 5 string on the guitar. which is not difficult

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Jul 26 - 08:05 PM

If you know both clef and keys Thats it?

No. A few decades back I took it into mind to learn the saxophone. I consulted a friend, a professional, and teacher, (who at age 65 was still receiving lessons) his reply, stay with keyboards and GET A METRONOME !

As a soloist you can go all over the place and "interpret" with a group precision counts.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Sandman ...WTF? ... Great new Threads, and POSITIVE energy ! ! !

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Jul 26 - 12:01 PM

For anyone interested, Hilary Hawke has a bunch of clawhammer tunes and songs on her YT channel played up to speed and slowed down, very easy to follow and with minimal yak. Cluck Old Hen

You'll also find bum ditty and drop thumb exercises there.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 05:18 AM

I do think that having learnt to play one instrument, it makes learning to play a second or third much easier. First, you’ve got accustomed as to how music and songs work, and possibly learnt to read music asking the way, and secondly you have some transferable skills like finger dexterity, muscle memory, etc.
However, I do wish those who started with guitar made more effort when it comes to adding mandolin, banjo, etc to their arsenal; they are actually different instruments and played rather differently and shouldn’t be approached in the same way, eg guitar like chord strumming (and worst of all, retuning to more closely match guitar tuning to save the bother of learning new fingerings. I would even argue that the mandolin is not really a chordal instrument, but rather one to play linearly up and down the strings, rather than across them with inevitably weak chord formations. Banjo picking again is quite different to guitar picking, because the thumb has a different role (both in frailing and bluegrass), and can’t play much in the way of bass notes.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 08:38 AM

Banjo picking again is quite different to guitar picking quote
not necessarily, frailing may be different, but it perfectly acceptable, imo to use 123 fingers on banjo instead of thumb, in an up picking style and melodies can be played thus in a flowing way. furthermore on guitar the bass strings can be played up in much the same way the drone string is played on banjo,. in g tuning but you . really good finger pickers on guitar occasionaly played the 5 string bass on off beat
just damp the 5 string when playing guitar,particularly for d major chord

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 09:00 AM

Good post, GUEST Jerry.
I'm not sure if it's a learning aid but alternate picking with a flatpick translates well from the guitar to mandolin family instruments, especially on fiddle tunes, it seems.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 10:02 AM

In bluegrass music, a forward roll uses three fingers on your picking hand: the Thumb (T), the Index (I), and the Middle (M).The Forward Roll PatternA "roll" is an arpeggio, which is a sequence of notes played one after another. The forward roll simply means you are picking strings from the lower, thicker strings toward the higher, thinner strings (or "forward").
This is exactly what you can do on a guitar And is an example of how guitar and banjo right hand picking help one another, and can be transferable from one instrument to the other.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 10:08 AM

A roll pattern is a series of eight notes picked repeatedly with the thumb, index, and middle fingers on the right hand (if right handed, opposite if left handed). By playing patterns over different chord shapes you create a stream of arpeggios or ‘broken chords'. This means picking each note of the chord one after another as opposed to strumming them together, and is what gives 3-finger style such a distinctive sound.
This is the same as ripple finger picking on guitar

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 10:44 AM

Yes, I would regard these as transferable skills. Alternate picking with flat pick is certainly common to guitar, mandolin, tenor banjo, mandola, etc.(plus the now less fashionable plectrum banjo). Some would say so is simply strumming chords, but my feeling is that you get the best out of these non-guitar instruments by learning the different ways they are customarily played, rather than trying to play them as if they were guitars rather than essentially melody instruments.
There are loads of different ways to play five string banjo of course, again all to my mind far more worthwhile than chordal-centric strumming. And yes, there are some commonalities such pull-offs, hammers, bends, etc for the left hand and alternating thumb rolls for the right hand in bluegrass (T1T2T1T2). However, banjo rolls generally are a different technique, with thumb and two fingers playing (up to) eight notes per bar (eg T12T12T2) and the thumb also playing melody notes rather than a rhythmic bass line on guitar.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 02:11 PM

i beg to differ, i believe you get the best out of these non-guitar instruments by not only using tried and teed methods by by experimenting and innovating. i use passing notes on guitar often sixthe and second of a chord and find the same ideas transfer to 5 string banjo
My experience is that tin Whistle players often propgress to irish pipes

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Jul 26 - 05:39 PM

Then I have clearly not explained myself well. I’m certainly not condemning innovation and experimentation, but rather the opposite- ie, not even attempting to learn the tried and tested methods first,but simply hoping that basic guitar style chordal strumming will suffice, when such instruments have so much more to offer. No one would seriously take up the fiddle with a view to playing just (two note) chords only - although you can get three notes if you file down the bridge to allow the bow to stroke three strings at once.
As for using passing notes, well yes, that’s fundamental if you actually want to play tunes whilst fingering chords - such as Travis picking on guitar or say playing fiddle tunes on banjo (fiver or tenor). I’ve similarly tried adapting Keith style melodic banjo picking (not playing the same string twice in succession whilst maintaining some sort of roll) to guitar, but it only works reasonably well if the guitar is in an altered tuning such as open G.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 26 - 02:19 AM

I was not suggesting that either, I have learned frailing, but also use guitar type picking as an added bonus. in my opinion open g is useful , and the easiest tuning for a beginner on banjo.
open is useful on guitar but not as flexible as standard imo
i disagree with you about two note dyads
two note dyads based on first and fifth for a lot of irish tunes and scottish tunes they are the most apt for modal tunes, but i would still use linear ornaments

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 26 - 02:48 AM

starting on the tin whistle (often called the penny whistle) is one of the most common and recommended ways to begin learning the uilleann pipes. Because both instruments share the same basic fingering system (the D major scale), tin whistles are an affordable and easy way to learn tunes and rhythm before adding the challenge of the bellows and bag.
Some of the most famous uilleann pipers started on the tin whistle, including:
Liam O'Flynn: A legendary figure in Irish traditional music who was a founding member of the band Planxty.
Paddy Moloney: The mastermind and leader of The Chieftains. He grew up playing a toy plastic whistle before graduating to a metal tin whistle, which he played alongside his pipes.
Finbar Furey: A renowned uilleann piper and singer from the famous Furey brothers who began on the whistle.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 26 - 04:02 AM

You could argue that the fingering for flute, saxophone, clarinet and oboe are also broadly similar (although different pitches), and you often see players interchanging such instruments. Similarly, the diatonic harmonica is a handy to learn before getting a melodeon, and also learning the ukulele before switching to the guitar, all because of similar tuning or scale patterns.
My point though was that too often people (generally, clearly not yourself) seem to over egg the transfer of their existing skills (eg guitar chord work) rather than trying to better capture the distinctive sound of the other instrument. For example, I quite like the distinctive sound you get from the ukulele (a gentle, hollow timbre), but I do not care for the guitar-like strumming/thrashing that today’s ukulele bands seem to go in for. Maybe that’s just me?

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 26 - 04:08 AM

your post illustrates the point that its not the instrument but the players although i suppose the ukelele thrashers may? be starting on a positive musical journey?

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Jul 26 - 11:15 AM

The most important things I've taken from one instrument to another is learning to keep good time, phrasing, the ability the generate good tone and ear training. Techniques don't always transfer but for me those skills are essential to good musicianship.

Subject: RE: one instrument aids learning of another
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 26 - 12:12 PM

plectrum technique is transferable from guitar to mandolin and tenor banjo and even can be used on 5 string banjo