Black Britons & Folk Music?

Subject: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:10 AM

On another current thread I had asked about the past contributions of Black Britons to British folk music and their current involvement in the folk music scene there. Some posters responded and suggested that this topic merits a seperate thread. So here goes. I'm reposting my original post and hope that those who responded in the other thread will re-post here.

excerpt of post:

..why is it that we {"United Staters"} can point to the very significant contributions of African Americans to our nation's and the world's traditional music, but there doesn't appear to be the same ability to trace people of Africans descent's contributions to traditional music in Britain? Is it because from which ever century that Africans first came on the scene in Britain as slaves or free[d] people they were eventually {before 20th century Caribbean and African immigration} so throughly assimilated into the culture that one can't say what their contribution was?

end of re-post

Also, here are somewhat related questions:

Aren't there any Black people from Britain posting on Mudcat? If not, why not? And for that matter, surely I can't be the only African American or person of African descent posting here... Where are the "folks" from the Caribbean, Canada, and other European countries besides Britan? And there's Black folks living other places...

Mudcat is a treasure trove of information on multiple genres of Black music. Surely I'm not the only Black person who happened onto or was led to this website.

In the context of sharing information about one's music experiences,and insights on historical examples, it seems to me that declaring one's race has value.

So to any Black folks who've been "passing" here on Mudcat, I urge you to declare yourselves and post on!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:33 AM

By the time black people were settling in Britain in significant numbers- during and after WWII- the folk tradition had become moribund. There were small older black communities, notably in seaports such as London, Cardiff and Liverpool, but they perhaps shared the musical culture with the rest of the community. In any case the urban traditions were being subsumed into music hall and other commercial entertainment from the mid 19th century onwards.

Unlike the Americas, we didn't import slaves in large numbers- we sold them to the plantations of the West Indies and the American colonies. And the culture of the few in the UK would have been seen at best as 'exotic'- few enough people recorded any working-class traditions at all, and those that did would not bother with music that didn't accord with their ideas of quaint, ancient, patriotic or whatever their particular agenda was.

Having said which, the best player of harmonica for Irish music I've ever known was Asian- anyone know what Sharad (if I've remembered his name right) is doing? He used to play in Birmingham in the 70s.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:04 AM

For all I know ALL of the UK Mudcatters are black. In all truth this would be very difficult to establish - if it was thought worth the effort to try.

Their specific contribution to UK folk music would be equally difficult to establish and it is also probably better not to try too hard but just to value it. Calypso is one area that has certainly directly influenced our folk and popular music.

But all of our music has been and is still influenced by all who have made their homes here and by the music of many cultures who have not. The blues and its earlier African roots has probably had the greatest indirect influence. So we have this African influence coming to us indirectly via North America and with people coming here to live from the West Indies and also directly from Africa.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:21 AM

IMHO all have to choose what they want from music and I am sure some black people enjoy Traditional British Folk as much as I enjoy some Reggae and Blues. Not sure why establishing what the influences are, by either to either, is relevant or important. Lets just enjoy whatever we are into without getting into racial influence or in fact anything more sinister..which some people might enjoy doing.
Best wishes to all. Mike.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:22 AM

There's at least 2 black mudcatters that I know of.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:26 AM

There would appear to now be Asian influences coming to the fore as a spin off from Bollywood. Back in the 70's I knew an Anglo-Indian guy who sang English traditional, albeit with an Asian twist. For instance he sang Young Sailor Cut Down in his Prime as Young Sepoy Cut Down in his Prime. IMO being a much smaller country than the US we have had to integrate more and absorb other cultures including their musical styles without actually realising it at the time.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

Azizi, here's my post again from the other thread, giving my take on the apparent lack of Black influence in what we perceive as 'British' folk music:-

"Azizi - re your question about the lack of African influence in British folk music. Just a theory here - perhaps it's because there were comparatively few people of African descent in the UK prior to the 'Afro-Caribbean' influx of the 20th century (comparatively with the US, that is). Whilst the British involved themselves heavily in the slave trade as suppliers of slaves, they didn't import African slaves in large numbers to the UK. Thus it's only from the 20th century onwards that a heavy black influence is being felt in music here, and it's mainly in the hip-hop/rap/soul/R&B fields, and very much from African-American/Afro-Caribbean sources.

Just my thoughts, but I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong!"

Cheers,
S:0)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

Well, here's one at least that isn't, Shambles; but my sister-in-law is -- does that make me black by marriage?

Most of what we call "calypso" was not Trinidadian at all, but Jamaican (anyone catch that BBC R4 programme about The banana boat song?) Steel bands apart, West Indian music has had an enormous impact on popular music here: ska, reggae and what-have-you (I stopped listening when I became a serious folkie in the early 70s). It's still going strong, both in its own right and in its influences.

Steve

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:31 AM

I'm black.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:41 AM

eh... !!??

so whats this "more sinister" which you're so keen
'not to get into' then..???


..seeing as you're the one who's mentioned it..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:48 AM

Are there any one-legged mudcatters posting from Britain? If not, Why Not?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:49 AM

Nadia Cattousse, Cliff Hall, Johnny Silvo, Cy Grant .....
I neither know nor care what the racial background of UK 'Catters is but the UK folk scene I grew up with had the above and more black Britons of Caribbean origin, the whole of the current music scene, especially jazz & blues as well as the "new black" forms of reggae, hiphop, rap, R& B(as they like to call it)are pretty two-tone these days.

RtS

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:51 AM

Yes YEs jOhn. I only have one leg.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:55 AM

oh.
any one legged, black, lesbian mudcatters in Britain?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

Me, Me, mE jOHN. gOD! How did you know? I vote for The Socialist Worker Party too, and believe in free form jazz pottery!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:00 AM

waht is free form jazz poettry/ i never heard of it.

Socialist Worker Party?, arent they that bunch of weirdos, that hang around in town selling newspapers?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:03 AM

POTTERY jOHn, It's a new Blair initiative.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:05 AM

oh.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,littlewhitejohnbull???
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM

interesting how some 'liberal' folkies are so quick
and so keen to take the piss
and be so fatuously dismissive
of a genuinely interesting and valid question..

so whats there to be so worried and defensive about then..??

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:15 AM

i agree.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:16 AM

oops...
forgot to refresh this page..
--------------------------------------------------
eh... !!??

so whats this "more sinister" which you're so keen
'not to get into' then..???


..seeing as you're the one who's mentioned it..

-------------------------------------------------

was written as direct reply responing to Georgiansilver..
in case anybody cares

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:02 AM

Troll alert. Troll alert. BS section please.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

Even a cursory look through Hugill and Terry should suffice to demonstrate the influence of African Americans on the Anglo-American shantying traditions of the 19th Century -- Tom

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:23 AM

I also have wondered if there is any of black African decent here and am glad you raised the question Azizi.

Folk music and country music in America alike have been very limited over the years with Afro-Americans. Of course this is not the case with blues.

Odetta, Leon Bibb, Josh White Sr. and Jr. are all that come to mind in folk along with Charlie Pride and perhaps Dobie Gray are about it in country. I don't know why this is so. so many whites dig the blues and emulate the great black blues singers. Why isn't their more blacks into these genres?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,littlewhitejohnbull
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:32 AM

so these days are we still likely to find
traditional north country english folk clubs
with the sign
"No Irish, Gypsies, or Blacks.."
nailed firmly to heavily barricaded front doors..?????

ok.. that was just fatuous sarcasm..

but seriously, cant really imagine post war rural community folk clubs
being particularly welcoming to anybody not born locally
with fewer than 6 toes on each foot..

..however i'd guess there was a certainly more tolerant and positve
cultural cross-fertilization in big northern city ports
like liverpool..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:42 AM

Black dancers were working in London during the eartly 1700's, dancing hornpipes. Also playing fiddles. Presumably singing as well, though I can't recall any references. By the nature of things, we should not expect this to be very well documented, in the early years of black entry into Brotain. My guess is that the influence on the music was substantial, particular on urban dance music(eg London, Bristol, Liverpool etc). But I dont think this will ever be proved. I find it intriguing that a very early hornpipe (of the modern 4/4 kind) was called "Salt Fish and Dumplings", and was extremely popular. That doesnt sound like traditional cockney or Lancashire cookery to me!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:45 AM

Sorry I don't reply to trolling Guests, particularly when what I have said can be perfectly understood.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Jim Ward
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Try this one

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

Are there any Polish, one-legged, mongoloids in Britain??

Here is the USA we call them Poloroid one-steps--------and we used to be able to see the photos pretty quick. ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:46 PM

"Sorry I don't reply to trolling Guests, particularly when what I have said can be perfectly understood."

.. oohh.. never mind then..

life goes on with or without you..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:52 PM

..and would that be Georgian silver
aquired with profits from the Slave trade..???

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:13 PM

Can't we all get along?

I appreciate the serious responses thus far to my post and hope for some more such responses.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:20 PM

I'm a bit dismayed that there has been much more nonsense and squabbling here than serious reponse to Azizi's original question. She always has something interesting and intelligent to contribute, and seems to be fighting the good fight to keep some wonderful dying traditions alive as long as possible -- as such, she deserves better responses.

Isn't it sad that, in this thread, Martin Gibson contributed one of the most responsive messages? (No offense, MG, old buddy; I realize you're on your best behavior up here above the BS line. Just commenting on the irony.)

My own take on the question is that black folks in Britain, at least before WWII, were present in such small numbers that they never formed a "critical mass," a large enough community with a shared culture -- nothing in any way comparable to the group experience of slaves and ex-slaves (and even free people of color) in the US. Individual players certainly emerged and excelled, but I doubt that people of African descent make an impact *as a group* upon British traditional music at all comparable to what happened in America.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:25 PM

Here's an article I linked to on that other thread Azizi mentioned - The First Black Britons

It's not true that there weren't a fair number of black people in Britain during the slave trade days - but there wasn't any plantation system, or a separated-off culture over the generations. With the end of slavery, descendants of black slaves and freed slaves mingled into the rest of the population. The number of people in England with some black ancestors is probably very high.

Some of the major ports have a different history, in that there have always been a fair number of black sailors over the generations, and as has been noted, the shanty-singing tradition reflects that.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:03 PM

"Well, here's one at least that isn't, Shambles; but my sister-in-law is -- does that make me black by marriage?"

Does that make your sister-in-law white by marriage?

Why can't we all get along? Because some would rather make light of race questions being asked seriously here in the context of folk music of Britain and British North America with Polish jokes, and cutting remarks that trivialize the original poster's legitimate and very interesting question, that's why.

Which is also why, IMO, you don't see many black Mudcatters either side of the pond.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM

I seriously think the black contribution to English fiddle music in the period 1650-1850 has been underrated. I really hope that in these more enlightened times(and with a bit more money available for research) that some serious research is done on the next few years, on diaries, playbills and other adverts, and we get a bit more of qa picture of what was actually going on in London and Bristol and Liverpool in that time. I think the results might be very interesting. English music changed a lot in that period, and I have a hunch that black people may have had quite a hand in it.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Boab
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM

First time I ever saw Johnny Silvo he was on stage resplendent in kilt, singing "the Mingulay Boat Song". A real happy guy, with impeccable taste---he likes Glemorangie.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:50 PM

I think everyone will do their best to answer the question, but it could be a tough one. We will inevitably come back to questions like "What is folk?" and "What do we mean by a Black Briton?"
I used to say glibly that folk songs were just pop songs with whiskers on 'em. I meant that all folk songs started life as the popular songs of the day and just stayed with us a bit longer. I am not claiming that is the right definition, but it helps me get over what I understand by the term.
I think the "traditional British" music now, is a bit of a hybrid and I have several times suggested here that we do not have the continuity or living folk culture which exists in Ireland or in many circles of American music. The effect of Black Britons on various strands of pop music is enormous and almost certainly permanent. I find it hard to say what the impact of any music is on folk music, because I would argue that our folk music has essentially been cut off from a living tradition for so long.
Interesting question.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:56 PM

McGofH is probably right in that the absense of the plantation system in Great Britain has to be a significant reason for the UK's lack of a distict, independent (and segregated) black culture like that in the US.

However, I do still think that there have always *much* greater numbers of African-descended people here in the US than in the UK, and that the weight of sheer numbers also makes a qualitative difference between the situations on either side of the ocean.

Also, as a number of British correspondents have pointed out, Black Brits were historically able not only to assimilate into the larger culture, but even to eventually "disappear" into the general population, over generations, due to intermarriage.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:01 PM

GUEST,Greg Stephens,

You wrote that "English music changed a lot in that period
[1650-1850] and I have a hunch that black people may have had quite a hand in it."

Would you please summarize the changes and why you think that people of African descent might have played a part in them?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM

I see something went wrong with that link I gave in an earlier post to an article on a BBC site - The First Black Britons (Moral - always check your links with the Preview button.)

There is lots of evidence of black people in that period being involved in various types of entertainment and musical activity, and that means having an input into how it developed.

For example, from that article I linked to: A newspaper report from 1764 also describes how 57 black men and women ate, drank and entertained themselves with dancing and music - from violins, French horns and other instruments - until four in the morning, at a public-house in Fleet Street.

My impression is however that most of the time this kind of involvement would be as part of general music-making - in the same way that black sailors sang shanties along with their white crewmates.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:34 PM

And here is the newspaper report itself, from the London Chronicle, 16-18 February - with an photo of the cutting.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:58 PM

The Spinners were influential in early days of the folk revival; Cliff was black and an integral part of the group. I'm sure he had an influence on the music of the group.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

The Spinners here

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:07 PM

http://www.rootsweb.com/~canbrnep/whallvc.htm

William Hall was a sailor in the Royal Navy, who lived in Canada and won the Victoria cross..... being black wasnt an issue he was a British Sailor.... only recently has it become a big issue to annotate the colour of someone. He was a fine man, a good shipmate, and yes black too....

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:10 PM

If carnival is folk music there are large and thriving carnivals in the uk - colourful and spectacular. Does it affect British folk? Or is it British folk?

Probably both, although the music is different to most folk clubs I know.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:56 PM

Notting Hill Carnival is most decidedly a major black folkloric event, and very welcoming to white people as well, taking part as well as watching. And then you have samba bands turning up and taking key roles in, for example the Strawberry Fair in Cambridge in June (where I always feel they end up looking and moving remarkably like Morris Dancers...)

I haven't seen any Morris Dancers at Notting Hill Carnival, but it can only a matter of time.

And in this article about the origins of Carnival in Trinidada there is a mention of "the performance by blacks of British mummers' plays and other Christmas customs."

And a more modern referance to Mummers in the West Indies is included in this site about Banbury Hobby Horse Festival in 2003 - "A highlight was a performance of a play based on the 'Mum and Tuk' mummers plays from the West Indies put on by a school from Gloucester." (And here is some more about that.)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

McGrath of Harlow, thanks for posting that link. The newspaper says that "Whites were not allowed because all the performers were Black."
We'll probably never know, but I wonder whose decision it was that non-Blacks couldn't attend the party-the performers {attendees} or the White in power then?

s&r, and thanks to you also. When I first read your post I wondered what the R&B group the Spinners had to do with Black folk traditions in Britain. The R&B group, The Spinners, are known for such soul classics as "Then Came You," "Games People Play," "The Rubberband Man." and "Could It Be I'm Fallin in Love." My confusion about the two groups is an example of how experiences can shape expectations.
I'm glad to learn about the UK Spinners group.

Also s&r, I've heard that there's a huge carnival in Brixton every year. Are there are other carnivals there or elsewhere in Britain?

When I wrote my initial post I was wondering about the contribution of pre-20th century people of African descent to British folk music. Though I didn't include this, I also wonder if elements of American & Caribbean "soul music" show up in contemporary Black British music. A list of those elements are the use of call & response, improvisation, emphasis on the beat as opposed to the lyrics; preference for falsetto & gritty voices, the use of instruments to imitate the human voice, and preference for blurred or dirty tones in vocal and instruments...

However, just because call & response for example is found in old British vocal music, that does not mean it comes from Black Briton's influence...This afternoon I read through John Storm Roberts' "Black Music of Two Worlds, African, Caribbean, Latin, and African American Traditions' {New York, Simon & Schuster Macmillian, 2nd edition, 1998} and found this interesting passage about the use of call & response in European music:

"Though call & response singing was more coomon in Europe at one time than it os now {some scholars see it as linked to tribal and communal ways of living}m by the tume African and European music met in the New World it had survived in European usage only in a few forms,such as church litanies and ballad refrains. European folk music's ,ost typical tfeatures, the division into regular "verses", came from the equally tupical tendency of European poetry to be divided into regualr groups of lines, most often two, four, or eight. The musical form tended to follow the poetic divisions, so that most songs-unlike songs in the call-and-response pattern-were series of neat packages of four, six, eight, or twelve lines, separated byy pauses or joined by a bit of instrumental filling-in." {p. xxx}

end of quote

It's been interesting reading all of the posts in this thread. I very much appreciate all "appropriate" responses to my original post and certainly welcome more responses!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:09 PM

Well, if I had waited to post I would have been able to read McGrath of Harlow's post about the Notting Hill Carnival. Is this the one that is held in Brixton?

Also, before this thread, I posted in a thread about May in Morris Dancing and for some reason, never got a response to my question about the custom of Morris dancers "blackening up" [putting on cork or something to darken their faces}. I wanted to know if this still occurs. I saw it as a custom representing the Moorish origin of Morris dancing, and in that sense honoring those Moors and meant no disrespect...

Anyway, if the Moorish {excuse me} Morris dancers did eventually participate in Notting Hill Carnival in Black face, I wonder how well they would be received.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Well, if I had waited to post I would have been able to read McGrath of Harlow's post about the Notting Hill Carnival. Is this the one that is held in Brixton?

No and the question about 'blackening-up' is topical – see this current BS thread..

Mummers and racism