Black Britons & Folk Music?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 09:10 AM

Notting Hill has a sizeable Black population (among others), and has had a massive Carnival in August since the 1960s - Brixton also has a lot of black people, but they didn't get a Carnival going, so they hop on the tube up to Notting Hill, along with pretty well everyone in London. Here is a site with masses of Carnival photos And here is a more general site Carnival

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:52 AM

The Shambles,
To borrow a hip-hop phrase "My bad". I guess I have to begin to look at the BS topics. I hadn't done for some time. I'll check that thread out. Thanks.

Thanks also to McGrath of Harlow for those links. That's interesting. I've never been to any Carnival, but my daughter has been to Caribana in Canada three years in a row...

In reading back on these posts this morning, I note that Super Ted is the only Mudcatter so far who indicated that he is Black. Maybe there are other Black posters on Mudcat but they aren't interested in this topic. And maybe they don't want to acknowledge their race for whatever reason.

Yet, I think that one may have a different insight on subjects as a result of his {her}race/ethnicity. I also believe that individuals with different racial backgrounds are likely to have different experiences that could add to richness of the discussion here.

I sometimes think of how different some Mudcat discussions would be if a large percentage or the majority of posters were of African descent. As a minor example, I remember seeing a post on Greek songs or chants or some such title, and thinking "If there were more Black people from the USA writing here, that thread would be about African American Greek letter fraternity & sorority step chants." Of course, it was of no such thing...

Oh, well. You can't have everything. I repeat what I wrote on some other thread: I continue to come to Mudcat because of the high quality of information & resources on topics I'm interested in.

Now if I could only convince other African Americans I know who are interested in these topics to play pass the "N" word references and concentrate on what they can learn from the site and what they can share so that others might learn from them...

I'm trying.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:19 AM

Hope you find this a useful contact for what you seem to be looking:-



Farside Music Diary (regularly updated)
Nov 21st Eddie Murphy
Well known Holllywood superstar moonlighting as brilliant singer of traditional
folk songs
   + Others

Nov 28th Red Leicester Choir
   Offshoots
    Both back by popular request

Tues 30th Re-Scheduled Committee meeting, 8pm at The Globe, Carts Lane, Leics

Dec 5th 4.30 - 7pm Free workshop (booking essential, phone Chris on 0116 2552745):
Classical Indian song and improvisation, led by Carl Peberdy
8pm John Obokoh & Friends
Carl Peberdy

Dec 12th Corey
African vibraphone player from Derby

Dec 19th Christmas Party Night, details tbc

Tuesday Dec 21st Solstice Showcase
We have a Kurdish group from Nottingham,
Steve Parker - Leicester singer-songwriter,
and more ... watch this space

Dec 26th No Farside Event
Jan 2nd No Farside Event

Tuesday Jan 4th Committee Meeting, The Globe

Jan 9th Roger Wilson
Internationally acclaimed singer/songwriter performs English & American folk   
songs on guitar & fiddle

Jan 16th 6.00pm Annual General Meeting at Y Theatre. All welcome

Jan 23rd Carole Palmer
Brilliant local singer/songwriter

Tuesday Jan 25th Burn's Night:
Songs & poems from the Bard, celidh dancing & Scottish tunes from a wide range of musicians

Jan 30th tbc (Upstairs in the Dance Studio)

Tuesday Feb 1st Committee Meeting, 8pm at The Globe

Feb 6th tbc

Feb 13th tbc (Upstairs in the dance studio)

Feb 20th Harkesh & Friends (Upstairs in the Dance Studio)
   





Wheelchair access. No smoking in the theatre.

Bar open from 7pm (smoking allowed).









Getting involved with Farside Music:



Farside Music is organised by a group of people who involve themselves with the aspects that interest them. Each member of the group, with help from others, can arrange a Sunday evening, on a rota basis. At present there are about 12 of us.



We meet monthly at The Globe, Carts Lane, Leicester, usually on the first Tuesday of the month to discuss and co-ordinate Farside activities. Anyone interested in any aspect of Farside Music will be welcome (but phone Jan or Roger first to check the meeting is still on).



PLEASE NOTE: next meeting is Tuesday 30th November - there won't be a meeting in December



For more information about Farside Music contact:

Jan Robertson (0116 2700699)






If you are interested in music/vocal workshops - running them, or attending them, please get in touch. We are currently asking for ideas.



Farside Music is supported by the Y Theatre

For information about Y Theatre: http://www.leicesterymca.co.uk/content/ytheatre.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:22 AM

But contemporary adaptions of festivals like Notting Hill has no historic antecedents in Britain, so I don't think it is a legitimate example of black British influences on what most British folk music afficionados would refer to as "their peoples' music".

I would also point out that the example given by Greg doesn't exactly wash either. There is no evidence of African fiddle traditions influencing British folk music, because the blacks in Britain at that time didn't have indigenous African fiddle traditions to draw from, and would have assimilated themselves into the white British fiddle music traditions and not the other way round. There is no evidence I am aware of that shows blacks in Britain having African music traditions and instruments being adopted in Britain the way they were in the US and other parts of the New World like West Indies of Trinidad, Tobago, and also certain parts of South America--NOT EUROPE!!! That would come MUCH later.

That isn't to say there were no fiddle traditions in Africa at the time in question, because there were, but they were almost exclusively North African in origin, like imzad fiddle music. It is my understanding that there just weren't many North Africans living in Britain at that time (1700s), and the few of them there were, certainly didn't have the power or influence Greg is suggesting upon the English fiddle tradition, as their music tradition roots were from sub-Saharan Africa, and their presence in Britain being due to their participation in the British slave trade.

The 'New African Music' that Europeans are now familiar with has it's roots in the hybridized African, European, and American pop music influences that resulted from the slave trade in the New World, not in the indigenous folk music of Africa travelling directly to Europe. The music and traditions of calypso, carnival, etc came by way of the New World, and are unique hybrids based upon which European culture enslaved them. In other words, the Spanish/African influence gave rise to the tango and rumba, the French/African influence gave rise to biguine, and the Portugese/African influence gave rise to the samba.

It was the British who are mostly responsible for the colonization of the Caribbean, and so the combination of the British/African music traditions resulted in what is now known as calypso (from Trinidad). But Carnival's influence is directly related to the Christian festival, hence it's seeming "universality" among Europeans. The connecting factor is Shrovetide, of course, despite the very pagan nature of the festivals and their anti-religious fervor. Carnival is essentially a pagan rebellion against the Christian hegemonic grip upon the enslaved peoples of the New World, leading into religious orthodoxy and it's "sacrifices" forced upon them during the season of Lent.

Azizi, if you are interested in the call and response thing, you may wish to track down an excellent series done for American public radio by black American historian Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon (also of Sweet Honey in the Rock fame). It was called "WADE IN THE WATER: AFRICAN AMERICAN SACRED MUSIC TRADITIONS." She devotes almost an entire program on the influences of call and response between the African slaves and the Scottish descendants of the Hebrides, who also used call and response in their hymn singing, upon both communities' music traditions. It's a fascinating subject.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 12:53 PM

If I see a black person doing something on the guitar that I quite fancy - i'll probably have a go at nicking it. Thats how it works with folk players.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:08 AM

I am finding it quite intrigueing that on this thread and the one about mumming there seems to be an obvious dissparity of attitude between US and UK catters on the question of race. Perhaps it is just me, although I think not, but the attitude in the UK seems to be that race does not matter. In the US it does.

I will point out that I am not overly qualified to comment as I am a white middle aged, middle class male with a beard and beer belly! Archetypal folkie or what:-) However I have lived almost in an inner city area amongst people from all races all my life. I am also of Polish decent and came across some quite fierce predjudice against me in my younger days:-( All that being said I have never considered anyone to be any different to me regardless of race, colour or creed. Most of my peer group are similarly inclined although I have come across horrendous racism in some of my local pubs and clubs.

The point being no-one I know of would even dream of asking the question about what contribution black people have made. We are all fokies and come across enough predjudice against us from the unknowing masses and ignorant media without further sub-dividing the genre! We are lucky enogh to have, I hope, an integreted society where Sca rhythms are as welcome in the folk club as morris dance is at the Moss Side festival. Moss side being a heavily black area btw for those who don't know it, where I know both cotswold and north west teams have danced.

I am as certain as anyone can be that people of all races have contributed greatly to the magical mix that is on the folk 'scene' at the moment. Whether that folk scene is represented at a predominantly white, black or sky blue event does't seem to matter here in the UK.

Does it in the US?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:42 AM

I am a bit reminded of the Litle Britain sketch - "I am the only gay in the village".

It may be difficult but does not really help if you approach any situation from the position of being black, gay or whatever first, especially when you are addressing the culture of a land different to your own.

There must always be the possibilty that you may actually come across a group or society that is intergrated and accepting. One that is not overtly racist, sexist or whatever. If you should ever come across this rarity - there would be little point in trying to turn it into a society that is openly divided, just because you may be able to understand it better. But there are degrees of intergration. I don't think that anyone is claiming our society to be all-inclusive and perfect in its treatment of minority groups - it is far from that - but it is plainly different here to the USA.

White middle-class males with beer-bellies as a qualified as black middle-class males or anyone else in the UK, to speak of how they may view their society. However, we probably are not qualified to judge and comment on US society. We can however, all learn from these differences.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:59 AM

Well why should race dictate what we like and what we play. There is a black guy plays regularly at the club I go at Loughborough - - but he plays a sort of flamenco-ish sort of music.

I'm by descent I guess Irish , but my heart sinks when the uillean pipes walk into any folk club I'm in. My Mum used to sing Slow Boat to China doing the dishes - not the Dubliners songbook, not a jig dancer in the house.

For years in America, the acoustic blues was the pre-occcupation of white kids like Koerner, Ray and Glover. although I can see it was maybe more marketable for record companies than black practitioners - the line we were being sold was that Black people looked upon the country blues as the music of repression and the awful past. I notice Eric Bibb doesn't cite exclusively black players as his influences.

In England , look at the ton of shit Jack Hudson has been forced to eat, by the so called guardians of a tradition that for most of us doesn't extend back to our parents. I've lost times I've heard him referred to and sneered at as a 'pseudo yank'. All because God bestowed gifts of singing and a guitar playing on a guy born in Derby rather than Detroit.

Its not like we're all peasantry and we only hear one kind of music. Probably the most successful reggae band in the world is UB40, and the two main guys out of that were Ian Campbell's kids - he of the Ian Campbell folk group - Swarb's first gig.

Are you trying to tell me there are no black kids in Chicago who want to dance like Michael Flatley? I can't believe the folk scene is that sad and insular.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: jaze
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

Martin Gibson, what about Richie Havens? I've always considered him folk and he is still contemporary. Funny, though, I never really think of him as black. Just a great singer with a great style. And a guy with a great perspective on things the time I've seen him interviewed.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:31 AM

weelittle drummer & others, I know that I don't know and I'm trying to learn. That's why I appreciate the different perspectives shared here.

For instance, wee little drummer, unless I try to google these names I haven't a clue who Jack Hudson and Michael Flately are.

From my perspective, I would offer that there is no folk scene in African American urban areas like what I gather from Mudcat posts exists in the UK {i.e. clubs where musicians play and people sing traditional folk songs}. Maybe there are some in predominately White neighborhoods or in the downtown areas, but I wouldn't know about that.

If you gather from my comments that I believe that there is still a lot of segregation in entertainment venues in the United States, you would be right.

I think the nearest thing we have to people singing along at nightclubs is karaoke. Some of these clubs may very well be integrated. Maybe that counts as folk music but I rather think that folk purists wouldn't think so.

Of course, I could be wrong as I'm not [and no one else is] the voice of all Black people here or anywhere.

One more thing, while I feel that race shouldn't matter with regards to work, housing, health, schooling, entertainment, etc. unfortunately it still does.

I acknowledge my race here because I believe that it helps add context to my remarks.

In other circumstances, I don't go around waving a race banner. That's not my style.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:46 AM

One more thing, while I feel that race shouldn't matter with regards to work, housing, health, schooling, entertainment, etc. unfortunately it still does.

That we can certainly agree on and work towards addreesing. But let us not take this issue into areas like folk music - where race really does not or certainly should be allowed to matter.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Michael Flatley is an American dancer from Chicago of Irish descent. he popularised Irish traditional dancing on a worldwide scale with a routine called Riverdance and a show called Lord of the Dance.

In England at least he has kindled an interest in Irish traditional dancing that has crossed all boudaries of race and class.

If I have got that wrong, I'm sure somebody will put me right.

Jack Hudson is in the opinion of many the finest country music voice England has ever produced. he gigs throughout the UK regularly.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

If you gather from my comments that I believe that there is still a lot of segregation in entertainment venues in the United States, you would be right. I do find that very enlightening, Azizi. There are odd venues where people are not very welcoming but rarely, apart from the 'private members' clubs, would anyone actualy be denied admission. That is particularly true of entertainment venues rather than drinking establisments as well!

I can often be found in the Archway in Hulme where the jazz funk plays till 2am to a predominantly black crowd. I have always been treated with nothing but friendliness. Likewise although our folk club is predominantly white I cannot think of an instance where anyone black, brown or any other colour has not been made more than welcome.

Perhaps there is hope for us in the UK after all. Until GW and his puppet decide to make a 51st state. Not that I'm being political or anything...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:08 PM

Dave the gnome, don't blame me. I voted for the other guy.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:18 PM

:D - I never voted for anyone, Azizi - only ever against...

Don't worry - wasn't blaming anyone. Where abouts are you btw? Next time I am in the 'States - possibly 2006 - would I be welcome at any of the music clubs you go to? I'd love to see a 'real' music club in the States. I have seen plenty of live music there, from Moutain View, Arkansas to Country fairs in rural Illinois to Jazz bars in Chicago, but never got to know one really well.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:25 PM

I don't think people are actually denied admission on the basis of race any more, but there is a lot of self-segregation in the States, a lot of venues where management, entertainment, and customers are either all-white or all-black.

My own experiences as the only white person at a predimnantly-black club, or one of a small group, have always been perfectly cordial. Of course, New Orleans isn't representative of anyplace else in the US (or in the world, for that matter).

To summarize what I've concluded on the main subject here:

~Blacks in the US created a folk culture of their own, rooted in the shared experience of being taken straight from Africa, in large numbers, to the plantation South.

~Blacks arrived in Britain in much smaller numbers, usually by way of the Western Hemisphere rather than directly from Africa. What musical and cultural influences they brought with them was already the product of some interaction with "western"/white culture. While individual musicians of African ancestry undoubtedly made significant unsung contributions, I would say that whatever impact they made, they made as individuals -- not as representatives of a distinct ethnic subculture with a life of its own.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:26 PM

I'm from Atlantic City, New Jersey, but I've lived in Pittsburgh, Pa since 1989.

Unfortunately, there's not many night clubs in Pittsburgh that feature "Black" music of any kind. We're only 12% of the county, and 20% of the city but that's no excuse. We do have an annual jazz festival...

At any rate, yes, let me know if you are crossing the ocean and coming to the three rivers.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 PM

PoppaGator,

I agree with you comments about self-segregation in public nightclubs. There's a funny/sad scene from the movies Animal House where the White fraternity guys and their dates traveling on the road & seeing a sign announcing that the Black band that recently played at the fraternity party where at this club. The guys & their dates walk in and all talk & action stops as they realize that they are the only White people there. If you haven't done so, watch the movie and see what else happens...

You wrote:
"Blacks in the US created a folk culture of their own, rooted in the shared experience of being taken straight from Africa, in large numbers, to the plantation South"

I think that it is good to summarize the points, but may I tweak your points about African Americans a bit just for more historical accuracy?

I would say that African Americans [Blacks] created folk cultures. Also, all people of African descent who came to the United States were not enslaved, some had been enslaved in the North, and some in the South did not live on plantations... In addition, all enslaved African Americans were not taken directly from Africa, but went first to the Caribbean.

See my post in the thread on contemporary Black folk music for the passages that I excerpted from the web on two African American cultures that [I believe] most African Americans are quite unfamiliar with: Zydeco music & Mardi Gras Black Indians. There are a number of sub-sets of African Americans whose lifestyles and music is shaped by their ancestor's nations of origin, and their regions, religions, political beliefs, and economic status etc.

However, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that pre-20th century, Black people in the USA exerted a highly significant influence on that nation's culture, but prior to the 20th century emigration to the UK of Africans & Caribbean people, the cultural influence of Black people in the UK can't be documented?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 08:25 PM

Azizi,you may be interested to find out about Ignatius Sancho (1729-1780) a black composer and former slave who lived in eighteenth century England who is credited with over thirty country dance tunes with dance instructions in an article by Julian Pilling in the English Dance and Song Society magazine English Dance and Song of Summer 1996. The article is very brief but refers to a book by Josephine R.B.Wright called Ignatius Sancho (1729-1780) An Early African Composer in England.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 08:49 PM

GeoffLawes,

Thanks for that information on Ignatius Sancho. Someone upthread had also mentioned this composer.

I'm assuming that this article doesn't name or really describe these tunes. Is that correct?

Do you agree that Black Britons exerted no real influence on British music until 20th century immigration of Africans & Caribbean?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

Azizi - when I was young(up to early teens) in the Midlands I don't think I had ever seen a non-white person 'in the flesh'. There followed a lot of immigration in the 'fifties, and the area in which I lived became multi cultural. There was very little cross cultural musical influence that I was aware of. Foods changed noticeably - spices and fruits/vegetables that I had never known became available in the shops, and the cafes reflected the changing population.

There was some stress between members of different communities, and occasional outbreaks of violence. Generally people from different backgrounds stayed and played together. I don't think this was ghettoisation, more staying with the familiar. This was a pattern that had been seen before with Poles and Hungarians - this tends to be less visible.

The choice of music that was available widened during my youth: generally my groups followed traditional jazz (I didn't know about folk) and many artists were black (few if any Asian) but I don't think anyone took any notice.

I don't know if census figures help here, but I suspect that prior to the 'sixties the black Briton made up a very small percentage of the UK, and consequently had little influence. This is now not so in many areas, but in the area of Folk Music things move slowly - if by Folk Music you mean predominantly 'White' folk music. There are many British Folk who aren't white, but seek music outside the Folk Club.

I'm not sure what question I'm answering; I do think that the US and the UK have hugely different backgrounds in terms of racial groups and characteristics. Perhaps my ramblings will clarify some points - perhaps they will muddy the water.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 05:59 AM

Azizi,the EFDSS article on Ignatius Sancho does actually reprint the music for Sancho's dance, The Sword Knot, with dance directions, as well as his melody for a song called Kate of Aberdeen (there are no words for the song though).
    The book about Sancho , to which I above referred, was published by Garland Press in 1981

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:19 AM

I'm an Anglo, African- Carribean, Irish French Canadaian, Southern (UK)Born naturalised Yorkshire man I don't class myself as BLACK, my Skin is BROWN, I have never met anyone who's skin is truly black.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 06:32 AM

found this

British black population

1596-1601 Elizabeth I orders explusion of blacks from London.

1780-1830 Black population of London 5,000, Britain 10,000.

1914 Black population `several thousands'.

1955 Black population 100,000.

1960 Black and Asian population 250,000.

1990 Black and Asian population two and a half million.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 08:50 AM

Muppett,

Well my mother's parents are from Barbados, and I know that my maternal great grandmother was White. So I guess that makes my Caribbean/Anglo. And due to my brown skin and tightly curled hair, and other features, I'm sure that I have African ancestry. So I know that on my maternal side I am African/Anglo/Caribbean. My father was African American, and he was legally adopted even way back in the late 1920s. So I know nothing of his ancestors, but since he was considerably lighter in complexion than my mother, I would suspect that there was some racial mixture there too. Who knows, maybe I also have some Native American ancestry or some Asian ancestry too.

All this to say that African Americans are a racially mixed population. If we were in South Africa, most African Americans would probably be considered "Coloured". Indeed, we did use "Colored" once upon a time [1950s-1960s?],but with a different meaning than the South African "Coloured". We went through alot of referents trying to find one that best fit us..including "African" as still refelected in the Protestant denominations African Methodist Episcopal [AME] and African Methodist Episcopal Zion [AMEZ}.

One of those referents that I still use informally is "Black", although it is no more accurate than "White" to describe skin color. Formally, I use the term African American. Yet I realize that "African American" doesn't describe with specificity the many sub-sets of that race. For instance, I have a two seperate families as friends who came from continental Africa- one in which the husband came from The Gambia, West Africa and the wife, African American and the other family in which both husband & wife came from Kenya, East Africa. The childern in both cases, and indeed the both sets of parents are considered to be African American, but they and, to a lesser extent their children who were born in the USA, have different cultural mores than me.

All this to say, African Americans are a wonderously diverse people....
---

Stu,

Thanks for those interesting statistics. Just for the record, do you have source that you can post?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:52 AM

Azizi,
       Cheers for that, the point I was wanting to put across was that many folk are particular (and rightly so)about celebrating where they are from or are proud of their roots (again rightly so)So why isn't skin colour used as accurately, as I said earleir I've yet to meet a BLACK person,where as I've met plenty of people who are varying shades of Brown. It's now not PC to call native Americans (or is it 1st Nation)Red Skined people or Chinese folk Yellow, So why is it still OK to call folk with Brown Skin, BLACK?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:53 AM

here

There's plenty of material on Google. Much of it is selective and puts a slant on the topic. Some of it makes depressing reading.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:56 AM

This site seems to make an effort to avoid bias.

Stu

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:24 AM

All this to say, African Americans are a wonderously diverse people....

I am sure they are - but are we not all wonderously diverse?

And wonderful?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,whitesalright????
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 10:54 AM

"but are we not all wonderously diverse?"
no...

in reality
most of us white people
are just plain pasty blotchy puffy faced & unappealingly ugly..
even smug white hippy liberals..

Btw.. i'm an exception..
I'm white and wonderful..
but then i eat well and exercise..
and dont feel uncomfortable
if black people want to take pride in their color identity
and raise it as a reasonable an valid issue
engaging in wider cultural and arts debate..

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM

Jaze

You are right. I inadvertantly left off Richie Havens. I don't think of him as a black folksinger, either. I do kind of think of him as someone who needs to learn how to play in standard tuning!! :>

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Davetnova
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:45 AM

Azizi- Interseting that you should mention the American Spinners. They made theircontribution to British folk with "Games People Play" as sung by Dick Gaughan.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Grab
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:33 PM

However, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that pre-20th century, Black people in the USA exerted a highly significant influence on that nation's culture, but prior to the 20th century emigration to the UK of Africans & Caribbean people, the cultural influence of Black people in the UK can't be documented?

You can't have an "influence" unless two groups are able to listen to each other.

So before immigration in the 1950s, black Caribbean music had no influence on UK folk, because there was no opportunity for people in the UK to hear it. But white US folk *did* have an influence on white UK folk, because there was substantial communication between the two groups - it didn't change the style of UK folk, but it did mean that some tunes like "Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah" got picked up by performers and would be known by the British audience. So before 1950 or so, the only black influence on British music would have been indirectly via American music, and then only in some bowdlerised version suitable for a white audience.

After 1950 of course, British music took off with the combination of British, Caribbean and American influences, and all those influences have vastly expanded what we play. But none of that is generally considered to be "traditional" - "traditional" in a British context would be taken to mean songs in the style of that country's historical inhabitants, which excludes "old-timey" and calypso.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Merina
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:01 PM

There is a huge amount of thriving black/ Asian folk music in Britain - just take a look at the BBC web site The World On Your Street http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/world/onyourstreet/index.shtml

It all depends on what you mean by the folk scene. If you mean the clubs & sessions where middle class white people go to sing olde Englishe & Scottishe folke songes and play the Irish tune, then you won't find many black people there. (It always seems a shame to me that British folk music prefers to live in a tiny ghetto where it's not heard by the majority of British people, of any colour or culture). If you mean the festivals, you will find a higher proportion (though still small). Many influences from all over - reggae, ska, music from many regions of Africa, Asia and Latin America, blues - are now quite normal. Bands like the late Edward 2, the current Boka Halat, Baka Beyond had/have mixed line-ups. If you simply mean folk music in its broadest sense - in that every country has some - then the big English cities are full of black folk music of one sort or another.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:32 AM

If you mean the clubs & sessions where middle class white people go to sing olde Englishe & Scottishe folke songes and play the Irish tune, then you won't find many black people there. (It always seems a shame to me that British folk music prefers to live in a tiny ghetto where it's not heard by the majority of British people, of any colour or culture)

Merina, I am sure you didn't mean anything offensive and I am honestly the last person to take offense at most things but...

How did you know there was a but coming;-)

I must take exeption to the type of attitude that is so dissparaging about British folk music. There is nothing at all wrong with British folk music. Why on earth are the media and, quite often, people involved in the folk 'scene', whatever that me be, so willing to take the mickey out of it? If a few more people spread the word about what a rich culture and range of music is thriving in the 'white middle class' clubs then perhaps we would have a wider range of people attending?

If I were to say "If you mean the clubs & sessions where ganja smoking black people go to sing old jazz & blues songes and lay down some funky rhythms" I would be acused of stereotyping. Yet people seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to do exactly the same thing to me and the music I love. Do you think that is fair?

I know I am probably misconstruing what you meant so please forgive me if that is the case. I do feel very strongly about this though and feel I need to rant and rave occasionaly when I see my own culture being treated unfairly.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:51 AM

A public performance, open to all, will attract those people who enjoy the type of music on offer. Music associated with black cultures will attract more black people than music associated with white cultures - and vice versa. Modifying the music probably satisfies no one.
Racial bias or prejudice would only be shown if the presence of ethnic groups was made difficult.
There is no problem in 'clubs & sessions where middle class white people go to sing olde Englishe & Scottishe folke songes and play the Irish tune', provided that anyone is welcomed (which has been my experience).

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:53 AM

Merina:

Azizi's original post asked for comments on the influence of Black people on British folk music. We can always get into the horse discussion- any music is folk music if you stretch the meaning far enough- but you point out yourself (though I don't think you meant to) that Black and Asian folk music have contributed as much as beardy fat beer swilling middle-aged little-Englanders to the ghettoisation of ALL varieties of folk by simply ignoring the existence of other sorts. We could be PC and say British Asians are British so Asian folk music in this country is British folk music, but it's not very useful when you fudge things like this- all you can say is that Black and Asian influenced abolished what was left of the indigenous music. Doesn't sound too good, does it?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:29 AM

Dave I agree with that there is nothing wrong with British Folk music, However I have a BUT as well, I can understand why the media and people involved in the folk scene take the micky out of it,it's the way a large majority of folk have presented it (note I say the majority as there are some great exceptions out there)E.G. in a pub sing around in festival fringe events, where the vast number of the audiance are new to folk music and you get some one singing a ballard 20 verses long and thus completly killing the atmosphere. Also the same can be said about a great number of Clubs I come across, where an artist is giving it everything only for the audiance to sit there like cardboard cut outs, I don't expect them to be rocking in the aisles, but sometimes I really feel for the artist particularly when they are asking for audiance participation, I want to shake them (the audiance), quite often I wonder whether it's a church I'm in or a folk club.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:35 AM

Boka Halat on this link.

http://www.adastra-music.co.uk/boka.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:38 AM

Baka Beyond

http://www.mp3.com/Baka-Beyond/artists/35670/summary.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:51 AM

Edward II or as they became EK2.

http://www.iconicmusic.com/e2start.htm

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:20 AM

Yeh, yer right of course, muppett. The only bit I may have changed is the word 'majority'. Most of the folk clubs I have been in have had neither 20-versers or statues in the audience. There are a few though, unfortunately:-(

What we need to concentrate on are the section, which I think are in the majority, of excelent clubs, singarounds and sessions going that suffer as a result of the misinformed few. Instead of putting out the, in my mind, false image of arran jumpers, beer and beards (says he in his arran jumper, beer belly and beard:-) ) we ned to concentrate on the new and dynamic. There are many out there who do it. E2K have been mentioned but there are an equal number of solo local acts who are just brilliant. Without even going to the internationals like Kate and Eliza there is a plethora of talent on the circuit. Try Anthony John Clarke for one. Or Jim Malcolm. Or even, of course, Muppett:-)

Cheers

DtG
(Sorry for the thread creep Azizi - It happens here occasionaly...)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:42 AM

You're too harsh on yourself, Dave. There's no need to call yourself a Thread Creep. :0)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:31 AM

Azizi:

I haven't checked into this discussion for a day or two, so this is a late response to your message of 12 Dec 04 - 06:59 PM.

I never meant to imply that ALL Africans who came to America were enslaved in exactly the same way in the same geographical area. -- only that the shared experience of second-class citizenship (or more often, non-citizenship) typified by but not limited to slavery, most common in but not limited to the South and its plantation system, created conditions that led to the development of a distinct African-American culture.

The only point I was trying to make was that, while black musicians may indeed have made contributions to British folk music *as individuals*, there was never a distinct "African-British" folk *culture* at all comparable to the culture developed by African-American people in the US. The contributions of black persons to the folk culture of the UK would therefore be qualitatively different from, and more difficult to identify and describe than, the contributions of the black community in the US to American folk culture.

I may have expressed myself too concisely, in a sort of "shorthand"; I certainly didn't anticipate being quite so misunderstood.

As for your deigning to educate me about the Mardi Gras Indians and the Zydeco community -- puh-leeze! I daresay I have more firsthand experience of Zydeco music, and number more Big Chiefs and Spyboys among my personal acquaintances, than you or indeed anybody reading this forum.

(Please don't take offence -- I don't mean to be nasty or personal about it, but just had to get that off my chest.)

Changing the topic just a bit, I hear what you've been saying about American blacks being ethnically diverse in their ancestry. Very few black Americans (if any at all) are of purely African descent; in fact, most are probably fairly close to half-Caucasian/half-African. I've often wondered why it is that a person with one African great-great-grandparent is automatically (and often recognizably) "black." Even thinking about myself: three of my grandparents were Irish imigrants, the other German. I identify myelf pretty much as Irish-American, but at Oktoberfest I have no problem being German. If I had one African grandparent, however, I would have much less choice in the matter -- I'd be black, not Irish, and if I were a generation older, I'd be subject to Jim Crow laws and all the rest of that evil nonsense. Sure is a crazy world, ain't it?

If I had an hour or two to spare, I could start rambling on about the exceptionally weird race-relations history here in Louisiana, inlcuding the Octoroon and Quadroon balls, black and white Creole society, etc., etc. But I don't, so that's it for now...

As for the "Otis Day and the Knights" scene in "Animal House" -- sure, I've seen it. I have to say that it does not at all gibe with my own experiences as the only white guy (or half of the only white couple) in a black nightclub. I'm sure it has everything to do with the attitude with which you enter the place, but *every* time I was ever in that situation (it doesn't happen so much these days; I'm talking about 15 to 30 years ago), people were falling all over each other trying to be gracious and welcoming -- sometimes embarrassingly so. All because I/we obviously had a sincere interest in the music; not really much unlike Bluto and the boys from Animal House. Of course, I often *really* knew someone in the band, who knew I'd be there or with whom I may even have arrived -- Bluto and them busted in crying "Otis! My main man!" -- but Otis didn't even recognize them.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:19 AM

Just as a matter of interest , the Bad Taste singing competition at Sidders this year was won by lad of (I think) Affro Carribean parentage !

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:45 AM

What's that Leadfingers - somebody beat you to it!!!! ROFLMAO!
S:0)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:06 PM

Dave the gnome, with regard to thread creep, I finding the discussion all interesting and hopefully others are too. And I don't find you creepy either, but, um, you do have that name, so, I'd better be careful..though I'm not quite sure what I gnome is...

;0)

PoppaGator,
Its true that I do see this forum as an opportunity to increase awareness & understanding about African American & other global Black cultures...Perhaps part of the problem is the nature of the Internet discussion forum itself. While the post is directed to a specific individual, the person writing is aware that many others will read it. And so,Poppagator, I was taking advantage of "a teaching moment" and writing to you but with others in mind.

That being said, I didn't feel that I was being pretensious or patronizing in my comments to you. I apologize to you if you felt that was the case.

I am SURE that you "have more firsthand experience of Zydeco music, and number more Big Chiefs and Spyboys among my personal acquaintances, than [I] or indeed anybody reading this forum."

I regret to say that I have NO personal experience of Zydeco music/musicians and NO personal experience of or with Mardi Gras Indians. Which illustrates the point that I was attempting to make in the the portion of the post that you took exception to:

"See my post in the thread on contemporary Black folk music for the passages that I excerpted from the web on two African American cultures that [I believe] most African Americans are quite unfamiliar with: Zydeco music & Mardi Gras Black Indians. There are a number of sub-sets of African Americans whose lifestyles and music is shaped by their ancestor's nations of origin, and their regions, religions, political beliefs, and economic status etc."

end of quote.

PoppaGator,I would love to hear about your experiences with these two groups, but I guess those worried about thread creep would say it should be on a new thread so that many others could comment specifically about those types of music.

Where ever on this forum that you post about those genres of music and others I'll be reading & learning.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM

Gnomes

http://www.foundus.com/jani/gnomes/welcome.html

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:11 PM

Azizi (and all),

No offense taken, and I hope none on your end either. I do feel for you in your role as the almost-only black voice in this particular group. I myself, white as I am, sometimes feel slightly different just for being more *interested* in "blacker" (or perhaps "bluer") musical genres than the typical Mudcat folkie. Not unwelcome or uncomfortable at all, just a bit out of the mainstream. I'm sure you have similar feelings at times, and I'm glad that you don't seem to be dissuaded from participating!

And yes, we're always talking to *everybody* at the same time that we're responding to another individual. I try to remain conscious of this, both when reading and when writing, but don't always succeed.

I may have exaggerated my degree of intimacy with the Indians and the Zydeco players, but not by all that much, really. *Much* of the live music available in New Orleans and nearby is Zydeco; the players themselves, the bands, are generally based out in the country around southwest Louisiana, not here in the city, but they play in town regularly as they cover a circuit stretching from New Orleans in the east to Houston in the west. I once attended a church social at an all-white Episcopal church (St. George's on St. Charles Avenue) featuring Buckwheat Zydeco (Stanley Duran). The Rock 'n' Bowl at Mid-City Lanes, corner of Carrollton and Tulane, features Zydeco artists *very* regularly, but many other venues around the city, like Tipitinas and the Maple Leaf, book Zydeco acts often enough. And no outdoor festival around here would be complete without at least one Zydeco band, usually more.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s, my kid brother and his bandmates were more-or-less unofficial members of the Wild Tchoupitoulas Indian gang for a couple of years. They lived in the neighborhood, had mutual friends, hung out at "rehearsals," and came along on Mardi Gras day. There was never any question of these young white guys masking (wearing Indian costumes), but they were part of the procession, singing and banging on percussion all day long. Anyone encountered on the street (e.g., me) could also join in the chanting and follow along for a while, of course, but I was never on the march from the git-go, starting at sunrise if not earlier.

Indians "rehearsals" are something else. I have a number of friends who became regular attendees at Wild Magnolias rehearsals at a little bar at Philip and Carondelet for a few years back; this was back when my kids were young and Peggy and I didn't go out at night much, so I tagged along just once, not regularly. Rehearsal consisted of imbibing as much official Indian firewater as possible -- gin and white port, approximately half-and-half -- and chanting/singing/drumming to the point of self-hypnosis. Definitely big-time fun.

Last spring, I was talking to my across-the-street neighbor and asked if he would be attending Jazz Festival (which was coming very soon). He said, "I usually only go on the one day when my brother performs; he gets me in free." I asked (of course) who his brother might be, and the answer was Bo Dollis. I was amazed: Bo is the absolutely greatest singer of all the Big Chiefs, someone who has been a *big* star for many years in the insular little musical world I inhabit. You can hear his huge foghorn of a voice on the Wild Magnolias album issued back in the early 80s, and I think there's a very new release of Indian music on which you can hear him to even better advantage. (I've been hearing isolated cuts on the local radio station, but haven't learned the album title, or even whether the stuff has yet been released.) At any rate, I've since been introduced to Bo when he was visiting Rodney and while we're not the closest of friends, we've certainly become "acquaintences."

I take so many opportunities to plug my favorite all-volunteer community radio station, WWOZ, that I may sometimes self-censor and omit inserting a link when I should. There's no particular time slot dedicated either to Zydeco or to the Indians, but you're likely to hear either type of music during any of the programs not specifically dedicated to jazz to to particular world-music genres (on weekends). The DJ known as "The Doctor" is especially interested in Zydeco and plays a lot of it -- he's scheduled on alternate Fridays, 11am-2pm, and does a lot of "subbing" at various other hours. Actually, the 11-2 slot and 7pm-midnight, M-F, are probably the best times to happen upon either Zydeco or Mardi Gras Indian music -- but listen in anytime and you might hear something new and different. (The above link is to the broadcast stream.)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:44 PM

What happened to Ted ?? Left this 100th for me !