Black Britons & Folk Music?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM

One of the things I like about this thread is I never know what aspect of the subject and related subjects and not really & truly related subjects folks will be sharing from post to the next.

We've been posting information about history & culture such as Ignatius Sancho, the British Spinners, EK2, Riverdance, Animal House, the Bad Taste singing competition, Notting Hill Carnival,Buckwheat Zydeco, Bo Dollis & the Wild Magnolias, & all the links from those for radio stations to Boka Halat & Baka Beyond to the secret gnome clubs.

And we've been exploring "heavy duty" subjects that will always be with us such as what is folk music & what is the most appropriate reference for people of African descent.

Hopefully, we've demonstrated that Mudcatters [and people in general] don't need to agree with each other all the time. Inspite of the disagreements, misunderstandings, and sometimes not too gracious remarks, we have shown that we can keep on posting because the information is worth the effort.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 04:04 AM

Foiled again!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM

I was at the Bradford Mela a couple of years ago (well I'm there every year, it's when I get my wardrobe re stocked and I sample the many different dishes from across the world)and at this particular one as well as the big names from the Bangra world performing, on the smaller stage through out the weekend were the finalist of a fusion band compitition. By eck what a treat that proved t' be. It was a case of bangra meets Ragga meets rap meets celtic meets wot ever. There were Celtica Salsa (I think that's what they're called), but wot I enjoyed most a group which really fused cultures, the set started with the guy who plays the pipes in the Afro Celts on stage on his own doing a series of gigs and reels, then a group of guys in traditional costume came on with Bangra drums and joined in and graduly took over the set for 5 mins or so, then the pipes came back and joined in and then took over and he finished doing a solo again. Mind blowing or what.I look around and everyone was up and rocking, young, old, brown and pink, it was a moment to savour.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 05:20 AM

We have a band in the sunny Beverley area like that, called 'celtarabia' well mad! Dulcimer, hurdy gurdy, electric guitars. Remind me to hire you their CD sometime mupps.
             Mucky Bradford, the true path!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:35 AM

What a stupid thread. I can't believe so many people fell for it. I'm white in the winter and brown in the summer with some hidden pink bits all year 'round, but all I'm interested in is enjoying music played by any multicoloured fingers. Azizi you're just a wind-up merchant!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: muppett
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:38 AM

You don't hide yer pink bits do yer, how prudish

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:43 AM

I have to. Sometimes they've got clinker on.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 04 - 06:53 PM

"That isn't to say there were no fiddle traditions in Africa at the time in question, because there were, but they were almost exclusively North African in origin, like imzad fiddle music. It is my understanding that there just weren't many North Africans living in Britain at that time (1700s), and the few of them there were, certainly didn't have the power or influence Greg is suggesting upon the English fiddle tradition, as their music tradition roots were from sub-Saharan Africa, and their presence in Britain being due to their participation in the British slave trade." (One ofvthose GUESTs without names attached)

Of course there'd have been a fair number of people from the British Isles in North Africa as unwilling "participants" in the North African slave trade. Our history is a lot more complicated and intertwined than is always recognised. It'd be interesting to know if such slaves had any influence on music out there.
...........................

Here is an interesting page about The Black Communities of London which makes a point that after the American War of Independence there was a considerable influx of Black   people from the former colonies, who had backed the Loyalist cause.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the link,McGrath of Harlow.

That's an interesting article that I will bookmark.

Although when I read this intro:

"slavery, trade, and war brought Africans to London in increasing numbers over the course of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. By the end of the American War there was a population of between 5,000 and 10,000 black men and women living in the capital, a central ingredient to the ragout of cultures and lives that made this a world city."

...I wondered, besides chocolate or pepper, what was "the central ingredient that Black men and women living in London during those times" contributed to "the ragout of cultures and lives that made[London]a world city."

That's my feeble attempt at humor...It rests on a 'ragout' being something to eat. I'm not really sure what a "ragout" is...

Maybe I'm just trippin...Well, it won't be the last time...

But seriously though, that question about the contribution of Black folks to British culture during those times is what this thread is all about. And some interesting responses have been posted.

Thank you and best wishes.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:31 PM

McGrath of Harlow, or anyone else who knows,

Can you walk me through how you make those hyperlink blue clicky things?

I clicked on the line across from the submit message button, but I'm can't figure out the meaning of the instructions that appear there.

I've learned that a URL is an address of a website, right? But to which address are you suppose to send the URL that you want to show in the message to, mudcatcafe.com?

Thanks,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:38 PM

It's in the FAQ, and it will help make sense of the following explanation for using the "Make a link" ("blue clicky") thingie:

Link URL: This is where you paste or type in the URL you want the link to take people to-- the address line of the web page you want people to go see.

Link text (optional*): This is where ou type in whatever it is you want people see as the blue underlined thing to click to go to the page you want them to see. If you don't enter anything here, the URL itself will appear in your post, blue and underlined and functioning as the link.

When you have those entered, you click the "Create Link" button. The next screen that pops up gives you a line of text to copy and paste into your post. And a link is in that screen that atomatically tries your link so you can see if it's a working link before pasting it into your post and submitting your post.

Email link: This section is what you use if what you are sending peope to is not a web page, but an email address.


If you are not able to copy/paste, you won't really be able to use the link-maker. But Joe's instructions in the FAQ will work, and you can type the links without pasting, right in your post.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 01:53 PM

I've never got my head round how to use the "make a link" button, I prefer to just do it by hand.

Here is a link to Joe Offer's explanation of how to do that, in the FAQ. (It's at 17 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM.)

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 02:28 PM

While individual musicians of African ancestry undoubtedly made significant unsung contributions, I would say that whatever impact they made, they made as individuals -- not as representatives of a distinct ethnic subculture with a life of its own.

This is a generalisation but it comes pretty close to describing what is looking to be the main difference between the US and UK. I think it would also be generally true that there has been little attempt to exclude anyone from contributing to folk music (or any other music) in the UK. While black people in the US may have greatly influenced all US music (then the rest of the world) - in the UK it is probably more the case that black people have contributed directly to it - in pretty much the same way as every other individual here has done.

Or this was the case until fairly recently. There are signs that in areas where there large groups of younger black or asian people - these are starting to develop separate musical genres.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

I would say that whatever impact they made, they made as individuals -- not as representatives of a distinct ethnic subculture with a life of its own.

I think that would also be true of most white English folk enthusiasts., who, for the most part, don't emerge from an ethnic subculture, but rather get involved in it from outside.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Hiya all
Just a quick note, Black British stuff can be found on 'africlassical.com' checkout Samuel Coldridge Taylor. I would call that stuff Folk! not just classical... Also I am Black British! who listens to folk, Blues etc. but also who is able to enjoy all sorts of music.   I think that most Black musicians in the early/mid 20th c played to earn a living, but unlike in the states, there were too few opportunities to make any sort of living due to who owned the record companies and even if there was an attempt to self finance a record, the Black UK market was small and probably poor. Hence our looking towards America for our music (which we bought back in great numbers from our seafaring days)

I am trying to learn the guitar and listen to the likes of..
Nick Drake. Ted Hawkins. Alex Glasgow. Duffy Power. Mike Badger.
Robert Johnson and any other folk/Blues who take my simple ear.

Joe

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 12:09 PM

But seriously though, that question about the contribution of Black folks to British culture during those times is what this thread is all about.

In truth there was also a subtext - are there any black Mudcatters?

I can see why this might matter and be of interest to some but I don't really see that this request is generally very helpful nor the assumption made that their are few if any - just because the poster may not state their ethnic origin, gender, sexual preference etc, in every contribution.

They is no way of knowing these things from what is written and as these issues do tend to divide us - it may be better, for music discussions, that we don't know. I see music as means of overcoming these divisions and in a similar way - there is no way of knowing (for sure) by just hearing it - what the race, gender etc of the performers may be. I would suggest that for the enjoyment of the music - this does not really matter very much.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 12:39 PM

Mudcat is a treasure trove of information on multiple genres of Black music. Surely I'm not the only Black person who happened onto or was led to this website.

In the context of sharing information about one's music experiences,and insights on historical examples, it seems to me that declaring one's race has value.

I don't want to come over as too hostile on this (as I am not hostile at all) but does - declaring one's sexual preferences, gender, disabilities etc have any similar value - for sharing information about one's music experiences etc? Or is only one's race that is thought important?

None of these things are thought important by to know - for the puposes of music discussion. This is not because I assume that every contributor is the same race as me (or assume that they are not). It is because like many other's - this aspect is simply not important in a context where everyone's views will be treated equally, simply by the value of what they are saying.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 01:18 PM

The Shambles c/o


up there somewhere in superior liberal utopian lala land...?????

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

I haven't been able to access this thread for a long time, so it's developed a lot since I was writing on it a while ago.
    A few points: whatever the Shambles may say, or in whatever way we would wish the world to be, I think our race/cultural backgrounds are very important to how we perceive folk music, as central a component of the Art of Identity as anything. There are often contoversies on Mudcat, for example, as to whether certain songs(say "The Wild Rover") are Irish or English...or nether, or both. But it is perfectly obvious that people's country of origin is quite likely to affectr how they approach a question like this, we all have group loyalties,or disloyalties, like it or not.
And as I often pontificate on black music, or white music, or any other topic, I ought to come out myself. I am a bogstandard white middle-class male. My main areas of interest are NW English traditional music, but my specialist area is southern USA folk music, particularly Louisiana, cajun an, creaole and zydeco. I have played many many gigs with JC Gallow, the black musician from Maou, Louisiana, who frequently gusts with the Boat Band, when he tours with us in England. I have also worked with Gino Delafose's band, when I was the only white guy in a black zydeco band. I also do a lot of musical work with refugees in Stoke-on-Trent (England), so I have close experience of how folk music is used by recently arrived immigrant groups to maintain their cultural links, and I have also observed at close hand how immigrant musicians can integrate(or not integrate) into the general cultural life of the country. I also have the standard white liberal musicians' exaggerated(?) respect for black musical forms. I was brought up on jazz and blues, worshipped Leadbelly from the age of 12, etc etc. Which is why I like reminding Poppagator that Amadee Ardoin was black, and emphasising the importance of black musicians to cajun, ot whatever. Like most British musicians, also, I have an inordinate love for calypso, ska, reggae and so on.(though like a lot of post 50-year olds, I dont go a bundle on gangsta rap).
    Now, you may think this is an egotistical ramble through my own mind, but I do believe we need a little of our own histories to know where we are coming from, and let others know the possible background of our prejudices.
    And to the matter in hand: English musicians, like African musicians, are and have always been ingenious and quick to learn. Any African musical person arriving in England in 1700 would have figured out what to do with a fiddle in ten mintues, whether or not they came from north or sug-Saharan Africa. Likewise any English fiddler(or a substantial percentage of English fiddlersa), when coming across a black dancer doing the solo hornpipe spot in an English pub in 1720, or finding a group of black fiddlers giving it some in Liverpool in 1750...well, they are going to react just the same as me faced with Leadbelly in 1957, or the Stones with Muddy Waters, or anybody with Louis Armstrong or Jimi Hendrix. They would say "Give me a slice of that".
    We really do not need a thriving plantation culture(as in America), or a millions strong sub-culture(as we have now), to explain black influence on indigenous English music in the 18th or 19th century. These things happen easily and quickly. And they will have happened in London, or Liverpool, or Bristol, or Whitehaven, to start with. Not in Little-Piddling-in-the-Mire!. London and Liverpool was where the blacks were, and where there was work in plenty for fiddlers and dancers. That's how, and where, cultural transfers happen.
   The sea-change in English fiddle music from 1700 to 1800(and American music) was very much black influenced. That is what I am suggesting. And no, I cant prove it, Neither can anyone else. I would put it in the category of the Bleeding Obvious. I just hope some universities will direct a bit of research money in that direction, to reinforce some of the background information.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 08:08 AM

A few points: whatever the Shambles may say, or in whatever way we would wish the world to be, I think our race/cultural backgrounds are very important to how we perceive folk music, as central a component of the Art of Identity as anything.

They are not very important to me for this purpose, as they tend to get in the way of the music. But I simply question how helpful this approach is.

Are we are going to use music simply to confrim or compound our historical differences and allow this to continue to divide us?

Or if we are going to use music to help overcome these differences and unite us?

With all the wonderful musical opportunities now presented to us. It is less important where we are coming from - than it is where we are going....   

There are often contoversies on Mudcat, for example, as to whether certain songs(say "The Wild Rover") are Irish or English...or nether, or both. But it is perfectly obvious that people's country of origin is quite likely to affectr how they approach a question like this, we all have group loyalties,or disloyalties, like it or not.

Even if you could establish the definitive answers to such questions - is it really all that important? The fun seems to be in the arguing, but the important thing surely is that whatever a music's origins - it is there for everyone's enjoyment. And for everyone to take part in the music's development.

Music is a universially understood and liberating language. I feel that we should always bear that in mind, when we are using written words to talk about music. Or when we are dancing about architecture.....

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:03 AM

I've been away from this particular discussion for a few days, and now (of course) have a couple of new observations.

I think that what The Shambles has been saying over his last few posts does not indicate that he's "up there somewhere in superior liberal utopian lala land" -- on the contrary, I think his position is more evidence of the point several of us have been trying to make -- that being black in Britain is not at all the same thing as being black in the US. In Britain, black folks have always been able to make their musical contributions (and to live their lives) *as individuals* in a way that has not always been possible for them in the US. In the US, black folks developed a distinct and separate subculture, which in turn has had a huge impact on the dominant culture, especially the musical culture.

PS to greg stephens -- I believe we agree much more than we disagree on this and related subjects, despite having traded a misunderstanding or two. I'm certainly impressed at your having played with Geno Delfose -- must have been a gas!
It may be true that in the UK, it's not especially relevant whether you're black or white, and not worth mentioning -- but believe me, in the US, it still makes a diffrence. Thankfully, not the same difference it made a generation or more ago, but being born and raised as a black person still entails the experience of living in a distinct subculture, sort of a world-within-a-world.

So yes, it may be that in the UK one's racial identity need not be relevant to this or that discussion, but it's not the same in the context of the US (or of American cultural/musical forms). In the US, being "black" is not just a matter of the color of one's skin -- it entails an entire cultural heritage as well, which *is* relevant to one's insights and opinions in a discussion of music, and well as the kind of contributions one might make as a player.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM

Shambles: of course, I know you'll never decide whether the Wild Rover is English or Irisah.My point was that whether you are English or Irish is likely to affect your approach to an argument on the subject. Very objective people may be affected a little, very partisan people a lot; but everybody is affected a bit, not always in a predictable way, so it's often interesting to know where are coming from.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:24 PM

My point was that whether you are English or Irish is likely to affect your approach to an argument on the subject.

With The Wild Rover it can work either way. I'm always very happy to point out that it's really an English song. But I think that's more because I like to get these things right than because I've that much against it as a song.

Being black, or whatever, can be as relevant in a place like this as, for example, whether you're a Catholic or a Jew or what country you are from, or whether you are male or female. That means, sometimes it's totally irrelevant, sometimes it's highly relevant, other times it's somewhere in between.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:31 PM

My point is that where ever we may be coming from - we can always just go ahead together and sing the song. Perhaps that way instead of approaching an argument - we can avoid arguments on the subject and perhaps on other subjects too....?

We can argue on other subjects - if we must and we probably will - but it must be always better to make music together that to argue about it. It is certainly better to listen to people making music together than to listen to them arguing about it.

I think this thread is a good example. We know the attitudes and where they are coming from and the reasons why. Now what do we do? Do we adopt the more seggregated US approach to music making here in the UK - to keep them happy or insist that they accept our more intergrated appoach?

Sadly I fear that - as in all things - we will, in time we will be forced into adopting the US model, whether this is the best way forward or not.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

I don't believe that moving toward more segregation rather than less is in any way "forward." I fact, you might call me a Pollyanna, but I believe things are getting better rather than worse in this area.

I think it's just a fact of life that a very strong and well-defined Afrian-American culture exists in the US, and that no comparable separate culture exists in the the UK, at least not for nearly so many years.

I suppose it's arguable that the large numbers of black folks that have moved to Britain from the Caribbean and elsewhere since WWII may have achieved enough "critical mass" by now to have begun developing an independent culture. But it's not nearly so "time-honored" as the American black world, and it'll never be as severely separated from the mainstream culture as was the American black world for centuries.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:01 PM

I found an interesting article today on race in cyberspace.
The article, "Race In/For Cyberspace: Identity Tourism and Racial Passing on the Internet" by Lisa Nakamura can be found at

http://www.humanities.uci.edu/mposter/syllabi/readings/nakamura.html

Sorry, I still can't figure out how to make those blue clickies. I'm technology challenged..

"Race In/For Cyberspace" refers to a website called LambdaMOO as its core example,and primarily focuses upon Asians on the Internet.
Here are selected passages:

"The technology of the Internet offers its participants unprecedented possibilities for communicating with each other in real time, and for controlling the conditions of their own self-representations in ways impossible in face to face interaction...This utopian vision of cyberspace as a promoter of a radically democratic form of discourse should not be underestimated....

Players [on LambdaMOO]who elect to describe themselves in racial terms, as Asian, African American, Latino, or other members of oppressed and marginalized minorities, are often seen as engaging in a form of hostile performance, since they introduce what many consider a real life "divisive issue" into the phantasmatic world of cybernetic textual interaction....

Chesher concedes that "In spite of the claims that everyone is the same in virtual worlds, access to technology and necessary skills will effectively replicate class divisions of the rest of reality in the virtual spaces" (28) and "will tend to reinforce existing inequalities, and propagate already dominant ideologies" (29). Indeed, the cost of net access does contribute towards class divisions as well as racial ones; the vast majority of the Internet's users are white and middle-class...

One of the dangers of identity tourism is that it takes this restriction across the axes of race/class in the "real world" to an even more subtle and complex degree by reducing non-white identity positions to part of a costume or masquerade to be used by curious vacationers in cyberspace. Asianness is co-opted as a "passing" fancy, an identity-prosthesis which signifies sex, the exotic, passivity when female, and anachronistic dreams of combat in its male manifestation. "Passing" as a samurai or geisha is diverting, reversible, and a privilege mainly used by white men. The paradigm of Asian passing masquerades on LambdaMOO itself works to suppress racial difference by setting the tone of the discourse in racist contours, which inevitably discourage "real life" Asian men and women from textual performance in that space, effectively driving race underground . As a result, a default "whiteness" covers the entire social space of LambdaMOO. As a result, a default "whiteness" covers the entire social space of LambdaMOO race is "whited out" in the name of cybersocial hygiene..."

end of quote

Shambles,
You said "My point is that where ever we may be coming from - we can always just go ahead together and sing the song. Perhaps that way instead of approaching an argument - we can avoid arguments on the subject and perhaps on other subjects too....?"

My intent for starting this thread was to elicit comments on the subject. This is a discussion forum, and discussion does not have to mean argument. Thus I see no need to avoid raising a subject that you would prefer be avoided. Earlier in this thread, I quoted Rodney King's now often repeated question "Can't we all get along?" IMHO, "Getting along does not mean {always}avoiding topics that some other people may consider uncomfortable or even potentially divisive.

With regard to 'going ahead and singing the song', which songs do the groups sing and who chooses those songs? This may be a re-introduction of the thorny question "What is folk music?", but
I maintain that race & ethnicity may color this answer.

In the context of this Internet forum I have chosen to identify myself by my race, African American. This is only one descriptor for me, and I don't include it in every thread that I start or every post that I write. However, in this thread, I believed, and still believe that my race & knowledge of my race are pertinent to this discussion.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:47 PM

I did not purposely repeat the nest to the last sentence in the excerpt I quoted of the article. My apologies.

And since I'm writing, let me also say that perhaps different philosophies regarding the role and function of music and other art forms may be in play here.

From multiple sources I have read that African traditions do not believe that art should be just for art's sake [meaning only for aesthetic pleasure, or entertainment].

Music and art can teach & reinforce academic & social skills, help help individuals develop & strengthen self-esteem, and self-confidence and raise awareness and appreciation of one's own culture and the cultures of others.

This is what motivates me to consider the pyscho-social ramifications of music, among other aspects of music and music making in various places, among various people, and over time.

If you aren't into this, it's all good.

Do your thing, man {or woman}!

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:45 PM

With regard to 'going ahead and singing the song', which songs do the groups sing and who chooses those songs? This may be a re-introduction of the thorny question "What is folk music?", but
I maintain that race & ethnicity may color this answer.

I am sure that it will - but perhaps a less conscious approach to this is the way forward. The music first perhaps.

Ironically myself and perhaps Greg may nearly always choose a song or a style that is not originally of our own ethnicity or race. I may even choose to play it on the banjo.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 10:14 PM

Going back to the 19th c-
Blackface minstrelsy was very popular in the British Isles during the 19th century (roughly 1830-1880). Troupes from North America performed there regularly, some troupes for long runs (e. g. the Ethiopian Serenaders at the St. James in London for a six-month period, and at another venue in London before that- seven months or more!- I believe in 1846). British broadsides reproduced the songs in large numbers (the song about Dinah, mentioned above, appeared in a British broadside of ca. 1835-1840; see thread 65298 and post of "Old Joe").
What influence did this have on English music? Did the minstrels affect British attitudes towards blacks?

The Encyclopaedia Brittanica for 1911 has a very derogatory essay about Negroes (musical ability but prone to fighting, mental capacity inferior, etc.). Did this reflect British middle class attitudes of the time?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 04:10 PM

Q, The book "London Labour and the London Poor" by Henry Mayhew (the section on street entertainers) gives a few clues about mid 19th century English performers' attitudes to Blackface minstrelsy. Mayhew interviewed his informants at the very beginning of the fashion. A lot has been said since then about Blackface performance but Mayhew was writing at the time!
"The Cowells in America" edited by Willson Disher is also a good source of information about the attitudes, in America, to Blackface performance. It's much more than this of course. It was also written at the time. The author, Mrs. Sam Cowell (her own title for herself) was a friend of many entertainers in America and England. She was touring in America when the Civil War began. Her stories about the bravery of entertainers who spoke out against slavery, from stages in the South, makes interesting reading. Her cousin barely escaped with her life, and lived in exile from her home in North Carolina, for the duration of the War. She, like many others, continued performing in the North.
Interesting reading both books. Cheers Joy

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 04:40 PM

Yes, but was there any effect on music in Britain as a result of the minstrels popularity, and the minstrel broadsides printed there? What were Mayhew's comments? Were there effects on music in the following decades? Any essays by educators on the subject?

Do the Encyclopaedia Britannica essays (such as those in the 1911 edition which I have) reflect what was being taught in British schools?

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 05:56 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there hasn't been a lot of racism in the British Isles, or there still isn't a great deal. But there have been, and continue to be, some significant differences between racism here and across in America.

With the end of slavery the relatively small black population which had been built up was absorbed into the general population. From then on until the 1950s, outside of sailortowns, black people weren't visibly present - they were probably generally thought of as another lot of odd foreigners, and like all foreigners, rather funny, and not really to be taken too seriously. "Johnny Foreigner" was a term in use quite widely. (It still is in fact, though with a greater sense of irony these days.)

Out in The Empire, of course, there were lots of black people, but that didn't directly impinge on life back here. The official line, of course, was that The Empire was a good thing, and that being ruled by Britain was a good thing for the natives, who weren't really up to that kind of thing themselves.

American type blackface minstrel shows were popular enough during the 19th century, but the context in which they were existing was different from back in the States, since there wasn't any element of mocking a differentiated local black community. I am sure it woudl have been seen as just people dressing-up and painting-up weirdly and singing funny American songs.

There was a craze for banjos towards the end of the 19th century, coming largely out of this, and I suspect that when people were dressing up for street performances and so forth, experience of having seen blackface minstrels would sometimes have affected how they disguised themselves, in the same way that memories of Pantomime Danmes would have affected the way dancers in drag carried on.

With the arrival of sizeable black and Asian immigrant populations in the 1950s there was, for the first time in a long time, a range of non-white communities here, with their own traditions. That has had a great influence on popular music in England, including folkies. But so far as native folk music is concerned it's been more through a process of osmosis than anything, and I think it'd be hard to distinguish the influence from immigrant communities from the influence from America via the mass media. Except maybe for street processions sometimes, where Notting Hill has shown how it can be done.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 06:40 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there hasn't been a lot of racism in the British Isles, or there still isn't a great deal. But there have been, and continue to be, some significant differences between racism here and across in America.

I think it is one of many areas of cultural difference between USers and Brits. I'm wondering if the fact that cultural difference has been explored, in this context, might result in better opprtunities to keep cultural differences in mind in general interactions around the threads. As I have experienced it, the degree of cross-cultural misunderstanding has been pretty high at various times.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 07:46 PM

Mayhew's informants, the 19th century street singers of London, seem to confirm what McGrath says. They talked about learning from each other how to perform the latest fashion in singing, dancing, characters. At the time, they said, this meant American Blackface Minstrel characters. There is no suggestion of mockery of real Black people as far as one can tell from reading their words. The characters who were mocked were British upper-class twits and pompous asses. The characters, many of them well established, that were played for laughs were "Clown" "Jack Pudding" "Silly Billy" etc.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:59 PM

Well what can i say I have browsed the comments with interest. Greg yer the man! teach me the guitar please.... Shambles I truely understand what you are saying, but hey sometimes some people need a bit longer to follow the path yer following! but I love your honesty and consistency. And more importantly to me I love a pint and pie with you sometime?
Corney as it may sound on the net but "has a Black man" I think, no I know, it is time we stopped the poor Blackman stuff, yes we is poor as are many white 'folk' but we is also developing and economically moving into an era where we can assist and support not only ourselves but also encourage others "Black and White' to shift themselves out of the mire.

Yeh I know initially not everyone can do it it but even if a sizeble number can, over the decade or so then hopefully we can have a greater impact on other countries economic and social development.   It does not have to be left to the 'old guard' such as Mr Burke to shape the world Mr Paine got it right when he commented "(in The Rights of Man)

"They learn it from the governments they live under: and retaliate the punishments they have been accustomed to behold. The heads stuck on spikes, which remained for years upon Temple bar, differed nothing in the horror of the scene from those carried about upon spikes at Paris; yet this was done by the English Government. It may perhaps be said that it signifies much to the living; it either tortures their feelings or hardens their hearts, and in either case it instructs them how to punish when power falls into their hands.

Lay the axe to the root and teach governments humanity. It is their sanguinary punishments which corrupt mankind. In England the punishment in certain cases is by hanging, drawing and quartering; the heart of the sufferer is cut out and held up to the view of the populace"   11/09/1789 200 years ago is not that long in our history.   

My friends great grandparents were slaves in the good old folk/bluesy US of A. And as my nans family where from Ireland and my granddads family where from Eygpt they were all as good as indentured peeps....   so 'times are definately changing' albeit slowly,
( in the grand scheme of things)         

are you all still awake!

Bye

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

Yesterday, as when I went to the library looking for a book on another subject, I stumbled across a scholarly book called "Black London: Life before Emancipation" [Gretchen Gerzina, John Murry Publishers, Great Britain & Rutgers University Press, USA]. This book focuses on what life was like for Black Britons in the 18th century. However, it provides some historical information about Black people in Britain prior to that century.

Among the books that Gerzina lists in her bibliography is what she refers to as an exhaustive work by Peter Fryer: "Black People in the British Empire" {London: Pluto Press, 1988}. Gerzina includes this quote from that book "the presence [of Black people] here [in Britain] goes back some 2,000 years and has been continuous since the beginning of the sixteenth century or earlier." p.xiv.

Another source that Gerzina quotes is Ben Jonson's "Masque of Blackness", 1605.

To add to the previous discussion on this subject, I'm providing these excerpts from the preface of Gerzina's book:

"..most historians give 1555, when five Africans arrived to learn English and tereby facilitate trade, as the beinning of a continual black presence in Britain. By 1596 there were so many black people in England that Queen Elizabeth I issued an edict demanding that the leace. At that times slaves provided a lifetime of wageless labour for the cost of the initial purchase, and increased the status of the owner. Alarmed that they might be taking jobs and goods away from English citizens and that 'the most of them are infidels having no understanding of Christ or his Gospel', the Queen issued another ineffectual edict, then finally commissioned a Lubeck merchant, Casper van Senden, to cart them off in 1601. "[i]f there shall be any persons or persons which are possessed of any such blackamoors that refuse to deliver them', the Queen wrote,'other citizens were to notify the government of their presence'.

Van Sender and the Queen waited in vain for black people were by then firmly ensconced in Britain's houses, streets and ports and portrayed in its stages...

As early as the beginning of the sixteenth cenury black entertainers had begun to appear in Scotland. Imported by the royal courts they quickly became not only popular but fashionably essential in England as well. Elizabeth herself, like her father before her, brought into her court and African entertainer and a page, making it 'clearly difficult for her to take a stand against the employment of Blacks when monarchs and their court favorites had themselves seen fit to find a niche for them in court'..blacks weres seen as fashion accessories..James I continued in this fashion ..he had a group of black minstrels and his wife had black servants. Whites 'blacked up' for roles as Africans in plays and masques. The theatrical draw then, as later, was in the visual contrast and spectacle, but also probably in the assumption that more behavioural and verbal freedom could occur under the guise of a 'black' skin." pp.3-4

-snip-

In her book's preface Gerzina also writes that "The roots of many English names come from the word 'Moor': Moore, Blackamore, Morris, Morrison, Morrow and others probably derive from Moorish ancestry as well as ownership. Morris dancing may have a similar source. Heraldry gives dozens examples of Negro heads on coats-of-arms" p. 5

-snip-

Gerzina also writes that "In 1768 Sharp and others put the number of black servants in London at 20,000, out of a total London population of 676,250. {Others, depending upon the year and the source, put the figure somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000, although the accurate figure is probably closer to 15,000.} These numbers were augmented by sailors, by students sent to study in Britain, by musicians who had become de riguere in English military and domestic orchestras and bands, later in the century by refugees from America who fought on the loyalist side in exchange for promised freedom in Britain or land in Canada, and finally by the natural growth of the community." pp 5-6

end of quotes.

It seems to me that although there may be no way to determine what influences Black Britons had on British folk music and other aspects of folk culture prior to the 20th century, the fact that they had a great deal of influence is indisputable.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: breezy
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM

That last paragraph surely is contradictory.

if there is 'no way to determine' how can you ariive at a conclusion and say it is 'a fact', that 'they had influence'

The abscence rather than the presence indicates that there is an absence which in turn means there is no prescence at all at all at all

Not many indo-Chinese invloved either.

and Johnny Collins organisd a Folk club in Singapore.

Its just that black writers and performers dont emerge onto the folk scene - yet, theys tryin to break into the big time.

Reverend Gary and Ray Charles got a mention last night, thanks to Derek Brimstone who explained that all these black guys were being ripped -off by record labels but got their own back by 'taking the piss' with their lyrics in blues songs which they recorded.

The blues and Jazz influences are very present, but black performers arent

However I do recall seing Black Paddy perform but more on the Irish pub circuit.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:39 AM

The folk music of the Caribbean and Jamaica was actualy heavily influenced by British folk music.

I don't know how much this can be construed as an influence, but blacks were in high demand as regimental musicians in the 18th and 19th centuries. For appearance as much as skill actualy.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM

You cannot be Black and British (OK well only by Passport) But by Blood they will NEVER be British.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:23 AM

Who is?
I notice you don't give a name but most of our names betray that our forbears have come from another land somewhere down the line.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:54 AM

Alright. I stand corrected.

I grant you that there is no way for ME to determine that Black people {meaning people with some African descent] had a 'great' [meaning significant] influence on British folk music prior to the 20th century.

But if you leave out the two words 'me' and the word 'significant' and also include the term 'folk culture', then I would say that researchers have documented that "the presence [of Black people] here [in Britain] goes back some 2,000 years and has been continuous since the beginning of the sixteenth century or earlier."

Because of that fact alone, and because the study of etymology, paintings, newspapers, and other literature {including Shakespeare's "Othello" and Johnson's "Masque of Blackness" {not to mention other forms of the performing arts, especially dance-and even setting aside the hot button topic of blackening up and Morris dancing} it seems that those who emphatically write that there was NO Black influence on the culture of the United Kingdom before the 20th century are refusing to study their own history.

As I said, I will grant you that it is far more difficult to ascertain what influence people of African descent had on British folk music-which is the topic of this thread. Given the musicalogy of African peoples, and our musical influence over time where ever we have been, and the historical documentation that Black people were continuously involved in music in the United Kingdom from the 17th century on, it would seem to me reasonable to conclude that people of African descent had SOME influence on music.   

And as to GUEST's 14 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM comment that "You cannot be Black and British (OK well only by Passport) But by Blood they will NEVER be British.", if that Guest is British {or even if Guest is not}it is possible that Guest might discover that one or more of his or her ancesters is an offspring of one of the numerous people of some African descent who merged within the White population.

After all, those Black people who were brought to the UK in the 16th century had and remained as personal 'servants' and manual laborers had to go somewhere-and all of them didn't only mate with other people of African descent, or die off without having offspring, or migrate to Sierra Leone, the Caribbean, Canada, United States, or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

I don't see many giving their names/real names on this forum - only silly nicknames - you neither. Our British forebears were from closely related White European tribes. No disrespect to Blacks/Asians etc. but they are not from Europe. How can they share our folk heritage? Why do the lefty liberals always have to be so PC and emphasize that the non-Whites have to be a part of everything that is ours. We don't try and get in on the "MOBO Awards" do we?

British Folk Music is part of our beautiful heritage and culture. The Blacks have their culture too. You simply cannot confuse the two.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:13 AM

Guest's comments seem very short-sighted - in fact, I hope they're just a wind-up.

If you're talking about the "purity" of West European traditions, what about Flamenco? Surely its Moorish/Arab influences are only too obvious? And, yes, there are quite a few white people in the MOBO listings each year - the acronym specifies music of black ORIGIN.

And if the anthropologists have it right, we're all ultimately of African origin anyway.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

I don't read unnamed GUEST posts, so I wouldn't have seen that post from GUEST 14 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM if Azizi hadn't mentioned it.

In fact it's pretty nonsensical, as well as offensive, with its "By Blood they will never be British". "British" is a nationality which has been common in one form or another to people from all over the world for centuries. Nothing to do with "Blood".

That sentence is about as absurd as if someone in the States were to talk about "By Blood they will never be American" in respect of descendants of immigants of one sort or another (almost the entire population in that case, of course).

And of course Azizi is quite right to point out that there have ben black people in these islands for centuries, contributing to the common gene pool. Further back than that even - in Roman times there'd have been plenty of black soldiers and colonists.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:37 AM

Our folk heritage is cultural, not racial. It's bestowed on us by our environment and not by our genetics. You can't tell me that a man or woman who is descended from slaves or soldiers brought to this country at any time in the last 2,000 years suddenly has a 'black' culture rather than a British one simply because large(r) numbers of people with a similar colour skin started to come to live here in the middle of the last century.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:43 AM

At last! Someone other than me has mentioned flamenco, the true path! A lot of the strains of flamenco that I play do originate in North Africa, the Zambra being the most obvious.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM

Sorry, didn't realise I was cookieless above(second April 14 guest).

No disrespect to Blacks/Asians etc. but they are not from Europe. How can they share our folk heritage? Why do the lefty liberals always have to be so PC and emphasize that the non-Whites have to be a part of everything that is ours.

" No disrespect " almost always precedes out and out disrespect.

I have several black mates who do come from Europe, Wolverhampton to be precise. You cannot tell by the colour of their skin how much of my history and culture they share. I go to a lot of folk festivals around England and particularly enjoy sessions in pubs where there is a good proportion of "General Public", i.e. where you have to do songs that other people like. I often hear regular folkies do the odd Bob Marley song ( Redemption Song, 3 Little Birds, Dont Worry 'bout a Thing), but then again Bob Marley had a white parent. I am Scottish and Bob Marley had Scottish grandparents. Perhaps he and I share more common culture and history than I do with our anonymous guest from who knows where. Perhaps anon guest will share with us what his untainted heritage and his music is, but I doubt it.

On a BBC documentary a couple of years ago I remember Dick Gaughan and Maya Angelou at a Burns Supper in Ayrshire. A great Black American icon reading Burns, but then she said it was her earliest and strongest influence.

Then again Gaughan is from Edinburgh and Glasgow people, like me, have never been that keen on people from there. You can always find ways to be different from anyone else but our shared humanity massively outweighs our differences.

To return the discussion to Azizi's original post I think that this is another of those threads that fragments on peoples different positions on what is folk music. At one extreme we have people who state the only legitimate folk music is what was sung by Dorset farm labourers 200 years ago, and then only if it was collected by one of the musical anthropologists of the time. If you take the view of folk music as people playing and singing basically acoustic music which tells of peoples lives then there are a number of people currently involved all around the UK.

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:18 AM

Interesting thread, check out EII who in various line-ups have been fusing Reggae and folk for 20 years.
Over the years I've played with lots of Afro-Caribbean, African and Asian musicians and in all these Bands I've introduced a certain European trad element.
The most mixed Band (stylistically and ethnically) I play in is the Suns of arqa, where I play Whistles, Bombard and Highland Pipes. We gigged extensively in Europe and the UK and played at Glastonbury a couple of times.
Having said that in the 20 years or so I've been a musician, I've never met any "Black" people involved in the Pub tune session scene.
That does not mean they're not there of cause, but I think the numbers must be very small.
I don't think this is a desirable situation for a continuing tradition but it is most definitely not due to the attitudes of the vast majority of the people involved.

TTFN

PP

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

I know next to nothing about this topic, but I'll throw in a few odds 'n' sods from Wales ...

The cabaret singer, Iris Williams, is a Cardiff girl and got her start on a Welsh-language folk/variety t.v. programme in the '60s singing a Welsh adaptation of Amazing Grace (in Welsh). The producer chose the song and taught it to her phonetically. She was a major hit and I think she helped changed a lot of attitudes in terms of expectations of who sings in Welsh; also in terms of 'delivery styles' of Welsh hymns. I don't think she'd sung professionally before that.

Shirley Bassey is a Cardiff girl too, but I don't know where she got her start. Probably not connected to 'folk'.

A lot of popular sing-along songs, in Welsh, trace back to minstrel show songs. Whether or not they count as black music is another thing ...

In the '70s, one of the major folk/rock/pop singers, Geraint Jarmain, was into Carribean rhythms Big Time and influenced a many other more trad. artists, bringing a whole lot of new rhythms to the music. Geraint, like a number of the young Cardiff Welsh of the time, spent a lot of time down in 'the docks' where all the really good clubs and musics were, and they were largely black run and oriented. When I worked in the theatre there, a Saturday night down in 'Butetown' or 'Tiger Bay' was the definition of a good time. And when the banana boats came in to Barry docks - well! You didn't see some of the back-stage crew for days ...

There's also a weird element of 'what-goes-round-comes-round' in Welsh music. In the 1800s the Welsh Methodists sent legions of missionaries to Cassia in India with huge effects on the indigenous culture (I make no comments here on that) including instilling a love of part-singing of hymns. These days, the Cassians regularly send small choirs to Wales ... as missionaries. And they're cracking good singers, and can teach Welsh choirs a thing or two.

I'm currently putting some projects together with the Cardiff bay area ethnic communities to help them access trad. Welsh musics. They're telling me that political correctness is driving them mad. All the politicians want them to 'be' ethnic and expect (demand?) the steel drum bands and mid-eastern dance, et al. But they don't make any provision for these communities to access the 'welsh' side of their identities. I expect someone will end up giving me flak for foisting this 'white' culture on them ... but, fer heaven's sake !!! ...the request originated with the locals. Sheesh. In actual fact, one of the inner city schools has a steel band that has competed in the Urdd Eisteddfod (national youth music competitive festival) and wiped the floor with the usual school orchestras. 'Men of Harlech' is HOT on steel drums!

sian

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:06 AM

Black individuals have, quite obviously, lived in Britain since time immemorial, but as many have pointed out, they have tended to intermarry/interbreed with the general population, thereby avoiding/preventing the development of a distinct Black culture. (Well, at least until recently, when an Afro-Caribbean cummunity and subculture has begun making its presence felt.)

Seems to me, then, that while individual musicians of African descent have undoubtedly made contributions to the ongoing folk process over the centuries, traditional music in Britain has not felt the impact of a thriving African subcuture in the same way that American music has.

As far as musical influences of African origin are concerned, any skilled and sensitive musicians, black or white, who had heard African music could well have felt the influence of what they heard, incorporated it into their playing, and contributed to the ongoing development of the music. Just as with "flamenco the true path," a genre in which guitarists of Spanish, Moorish, mixed and even Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage have long been listening, playing, being influenced, and influencing others.