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Loyalist (Ulster) songs
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Loyalist (Ulster) songs |
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Subject: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Martin Ryan Date: 13 Oct 98 - 02:58 AM I'm a bit concerned at the level of modern IRA propagandist songs we seem to be accumulating lately. The following site may provide an antidote - the songs are just as bad! The Loyalist Songbook http://www.trailerpark.com/phase2/boyne/ooooo.html Regards |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: alison Date: 13 Oct 98 - 03:06 AM hi, Here's another one..... haven't checked it out but here's the address anyway http:members.aol.com/jmaul81075/ulstsong.html Slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Oct 98 - 03:54 AM That URL seems to be dead, Alison. Could the correct one be just slightly different? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: alison Date: 13 Oct 98 - 04:07 AM Hi Joe, yes one letter wrong as usual. It should be http:members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.html Just checked it out... it is a mail order type place with song books. Found another site with heaps of stuff (The Ulster Orange / Loyalist Songbook)but I can't get at the URL it's linked to another site. will try to find out. Forget I said that it's the one Martin listed above. Slainte
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Martin Ryan. Date: 13 Oct 98 - 05:45 AM Alison
The " jmoul" site is John Moulden's Ulstersongs operation. There's a link in the links page to it. While very much an Ulsterman, John in interested in all of the singing tradition of Ireland - and is a good source for scarce or reissued material. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Wolfgang Hell Date: 13 Oct 98 - 06:55 AM What a fine link, Martin. I appreciate your reason for providing it now. And I share your feelings about the quality of the lyrics. (However I someone asks for lyrics and I have them, I'll post them, whether I like them or not) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Brack& Date: 13 Oct 98 - 07:23 AM I can't get that link Alison, it comes up with incorrect syntax. Any clues. Mick Bracken |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Martin Ryan Date: 13 Oct 98 - 07:54 AM Brack& Try it through the Mudcat links page - should be OK. Wolfgang Regards |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Oct 98 - 02:38 PM OK, let's see if I can get the Ulstersong link right: http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm I can never type URLs straight, so I always copy them out of the address bar of my browser. Alison, you were missing the slashes, and you had an "L" at the end of the URL that shouldn't have been there. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Big Mick Date: 13 Oct 98 - 07:03 PM There is actually a parallel thread going on right now which questions the legitamacy of posting these songs because of the stance they take. I would respond that given the nature of the Mudcat, of course we should. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. My views, as most here know, are Irish Republican to the max. I am not some Yank with a fantasy image of Ireland, but rather an Irish American, raised among Irish Emmigrants who had strong Republican feelings. I have studied, and continue to study, the history of the land of my people, and the historical roots of "the troubles". The point of all this is that I have very strong Republican views based on much more than a propagandist's view. And having said all that, it seems to me critically important when dealing with "folk music" that you be inclusive as opposed to exclusive. The music that we are attempting to preserve and pass on MUST reflect all sides of the issues no matter how it may offend my or anyone elses politic, and sometimes their sensibilities. In the fullness of time, "folks" can make their own judgements as to the validity of the causes. But it will be a well reasoned judgement only if it is based on complete data. Tiocfaidh a/r la/. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: alison Date: 13 Oct 98 - 08:13 PM Hi, Thanks for fixing that address Joe.... Well I'm glad Martin started this thread. Even if people choose to ignore them, there are a lot of songs out there which people probably aren't aware of... so now they know where to look. I personally will (like the others above)pass on any songs I have the lyrics to and it's up to others to make up their own minds. I have to admit I haven't sung many of the "Orange" type songs.... (apart from the "Old Orange Flute"), most venues prefer the more traditional "Irish rebel" type stuff. Having said that some of the tunes are great.... The only time you tended to hear the "Orange" type songs was around bonfires on the 11th July.... and then they were usually sung by fairly drunk people who couldn't remember the words. slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: dick greenhaus Date: 13 Oct 98 - 11:41 PM The DT includes a fair number of Protestant/Loyalist/Orange songs. Try a search for @Protestant |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Graeme Date: 14 Oct 98 - 05:21 AM Thanks for your views, Mick. I actually started that other thread to try and prompt some opinions - and it worked! Actually I agree - Mudcat should be apolitical and the songs we pass on may be lost if we all took a partisan stance. I have my own views about certain political issues - and there are some songs that I hate, but that does not take away their validity or there relevance. But I think there may be occasions where some of us would draw the line. For instance, I would pass on just about any song, regardless of it's political bias - but in a surf recently I came across a site dedicated to the songs of the Nazis. Not German military songs, many of which are really beautiful, but the actual SS and SA songs of the thirties. Those I would not pass on., and they were the ones I was referring to in the other thread about stirring up hatred. Graeme |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Martin Ryan Date: 14 Oct 98 - 08:50 AM Alison
You might like to try "The Orange Maid of Sligo" which is basically an Orange "aisling". Dominic Behan seems to have nicked the tune for "Avondale"!
Also the version of "My Irish Molly" on which "The sash " was based is worth singing.
The point,of course, is to emphasise how inter-twined the two traditions were,musically and, indeed,poetically.
Regards |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Pete M Date: 14 Oct 98 - 04:46 PM Martin, thanks for starting such an interesting thread. My own position is the same as Mick's, and Alison'. I am a bit bothered by Graeme's caveat, there is the perennial problems of censorship - who decides; and where to draw the line. eg Graeme differentiates between the Wehrmact and the SS and SA, do we differentiate between the original SS and the Waffen SS, or between German SS divisions and foreign volunteer divisions? etc. Similarly there is the issue of context, both of the song itself and of the request. For the first, there are many songs in the database which I am sure would be considered racist, or sexist etc if written today, but which accurately reflect the views of society at the time. Should we deny these songs? Secondly, in the case of the Mudcat, I think we have to take it on trust that we are all have a bone fide interest in folk song/music per se as performers, scholars, and researchers regardless of our political views. Apart from the above, my main concern is I suppose, that if we exclude songs of these and other extreme units and organisations it becomes easier to dimiss them as aberations which "could not happen here". Quite apart from the recent research into the reasons for the rise of Facism, the events in Bosnia and now Kosovo demonstrate all too clearly that "extremists" and people who commit atrocities are literally the guys who live next door. I understand that some will take these songs at face value and continue their advocacy of hate, but if they help in any way to remind the majority of where that path leads and to be on guard against it, then in my view that is a price worth paying. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Loyalist (Ulster) songs From: Big Mick Date: 15 Oct 98 - 01:22 AM Aye, Pete, I must agree with you. I feel that it is only when you expose views to the light of debate/analysis that you are able to apply your values system and make well reasoned decisions as to the subject matter portrayed. I actually find value in holding racist/sexist and whatever othe "ists" up to the light of scrutiny of people of honest intentions. Despots from Cromwell to Hitler, from the US Army (with regard to Native Americans) to Milosevich have all taught us that when you attempt to wipe out something you hate, you most generally are contributing to its ability to outlive your attempt. All the best, Mick |
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