Were we ever that young?

Subject: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM

Last night, I went to hear a gospel group at a coffee house. Before they sang, there was an hour and a half of open mike. My wife and I had never been to the place before, so we got there early enough to hear most of the open mike performers. After listening to the first two or three performers get up and do their two song limit, all the familiar words came rushing into my mind... "song-whiners", navel-gazers.." My reaction was like most people my age... I felt like yelling out, Quitcherbellyakin! As I sat there for awhile, though, a different perspective came to me. Yes, the songs were mostly about lousy love affairs, delivered in a mumbled, almost incoherent fashion. And, everyone seemed to want to make it clear that they were "sensitive."
But as time went by, my feelings toward the singers changed. Most of them were in their early or mid twenties... one young man introduced a song he had written when he was young (five years ago, when he was in high school.)

When I think back to when I was that young, I see things very differently. I started playing guitar when I was about 15, and yet the first time I ever sang in front of anyone... I mean ANYONE, including my own family, I was 29 years old. It wasn't so much that I was shy. It was more that I was so insecure and lacking in confidence that I just didn't have the courage to expose myself on stage, in front of an audience. I knew I wasn't very good (although in retrospect, I was a lot better than I believed I was.) I just didn't want to be hurt. Simple as that. And I saw that in these kids, who could talk about when they were young. I ended up feeling that what these kids needed more than anything was a hug. Someone to encourage them, even if they will NEVER be very good. There can be a smugness about being good, that diminishes people who are less gifted. Deliver us from that.

When I think of those kids getting up there, all nervous and apologetic, I think of the kids in the 60's getting up at hootenannies, introducing a song by saying, "I will now attempt to play..." It was an open request not to be judged too harshly, because they were so unsure of themselves. I heard those same introductions last night. Nothing has changed. Unless it's us.

So, whatever happened to that insecure, overly introspective kid we were? Has the awkwardness, self-deprecation and openly stated need to be accepted been replaced by smugness, cynicism, bitterness, hardness and judgement? Are we able to acknowledge our own limitations, our confusion and need for love, or has that all been crusted over with cynicism and sarcasm?

I see my sons struggling to become the men they will become, and I remember that when you haven't accepted yourself, you can't see outward. You do see yourself as the center of the universe, and you do a lot of navel gazing, trying to figure out who you are. The lucky ones never stop seeking to understand themselves. I think my sons are going to be that way and I am thankful for it. I know that as they come to love and accept themselves more, then they'll be able to see others more clearly.

In the meantime, maybe it's time to cut kids a little slack... those navel-gazing song-whiners who write God-awful songs and mumble the words so self-consciously. They expose themselves in all their vulnerability and inadequacy. Have we lost the ability to do that?

Were we ever that young?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:53 AM

I sure was Jerry. I am horribly guilty of all the offences you listed in your post. I wrote – or more often overwrote – ditties about joys and sorrows of my life. One day I lost a file full of my sensitive songs. Oh what a tragedy that no one ever found it and returned it! What a disaster it would have been if it had been put into the next dustbin. Twenty five years on I am praying that just that actually happened. Burn all the evidence I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:05 AM

I'm with Jerry all the way on that. Being honest means singing songs that speak to what you are concerned with. They may be songs you have heard from other people, or found for yourself, or made up yourself, but there are reeasons why we sing some songs and not others. (And most people have to write a good few songs that don't work too well before we learn how to write songs that do work. And if we don't sing songs in public we'll never learn the difference.)

At different time in our life we have different things we are concerned with. A young person may be thinking about love and rejection and insecurity and stuff like that, an older person will be thinking about time passing, and sooner or later about dying and about the good old days and so forth. (And probably also about love and rejection and insecurity too, but maybe a bit more circumspect about opening up about stuff like that.)

As for mumbling, you have to crawl before you can walk. Mumbling is one way of hiding a little as you open yourself. But singing out a little bit too loud can be another. So is playing finger-breaking music that doesn't get anywhere. We all put on fronts from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:21 AM

sometimes I think I'm still that young!

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:13 AM

Good for you, Mario!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:08 AM

I know exactly what you mean Jerry! I recently attended an opem-mike evening (the first in many a year) and saw a couple of younger versions of myself, all serious and self-conscious, presenting their angst-ridden songs of unrequited love etc. My first instinct was that these kids haven't had enough experience of life to write about anything but I decided I needed to lighten up a little and cut some slack and, in doing so, found myself enjoying the evening.
The organiser seemed to be using the evening to promote himself, however, and he irritated me with the "smugness" you describe to the point that I wanted to tell him to give the stage back to the kids instead of upstaging them. I was delighted when one of the "hopefulls" asked if I would do a couple of songs with him and tried my best to operate as a "safety net" without intruding on his music. There's a fine line between encouraging a performer and frightening him or her off, but I've usually found the very best players are considerate and tolerant with up and coming talent without feeling the need to display their superiority.
I've lost count of the number of "old guys" I foisted myself on to, in my youth, in the hope of gaining a little of what they had.
But yes, Jerry, if I had once forgotten being that young, I was certainly reminded that night!

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM

I tell you, C. If you want to light up a room, just compliment a young musician who is feeling insecure and frightened. I've had musicians who are now better known and far more successful than I ever was who still express their appreciation for my encouragement when they didn't know if they were any good, or where they were going.
It doesn't take much, but it can mean everything.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:58 AM

well, I'm only 37, so I do remember that "young" time. But it took me until I was 27 before I was willing to do an open mike night.

I don't do it very well, but I see other older musicians connecting with the younger ones. It's a good thing because one's connections are made, the younger can be more accepting of tips from years of experience. Also, if you aren't a fan of their style of music, maybe they haven't been exposed to the different styles out there. I know that while I sing primarily trad. Irish, etc., part of my style comes from the spirituals and gospel songs I sing in church.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:07 PM

maybe good - maybe not Jerry! Seems like it has all the disadvantages of being young with none of the benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:10 PM

My problem is the reverse. I look at people in their 30's and 40's and wonder, "Was I ever that old?"

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:27 PM

Good post, Jerry. Yeah, I clearly remember being like that and writing those amateurish songs about unrequited love...a raftload of them! Pretty dismal stuff generally, but some of it was actually okay.

As you say, those kids need encouragement, not putdowns. Thanks for reminding me about it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM

Call me a snob, but I still can't abide teenage philosophers wailing out their diary entries as if they had lived.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:54 PM

Snob!

Actually if I remember the songs I sang back then, I don't think I had the nerve to open up that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM

Funny -- I never thought of writing up my own heartbreaks as a substitute for the songs I had learned from Warner, Ives, Leadbelly, Dyer-Bennett, and gawd-knows-who-else, because I knew, for one thing, that I had no idea what those efforts really felt like and so I couldn't pull it off to the same standard of music and poetry. When I stood up at the local coffeehouse it was to sing Trouble in Mind or Wild Colonial Boy. I wouldn't have written about Jenny Brown and her little sister because I felt I wouldn't be able to make a convincing song out of it, compared to the "real" stuff.

In other words, I wasn't good enough. I think the yonkers Jerry saw can be readily forgiven for wailing their wee souls out but they'd be better off if they spent the same amoutn of time learning to perform Barbry Ellen, or even Can't Help But Wonder or John Henry. That would give them some practice putting agony into song, and then they could make thier own appear in a workable fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:04 PM

We were at New Year's Eve concert celebration type of thing. The main group was the Myshkin Warblers (or something) they were great...but before we could listen to them, there were three other acts. the first one was some woman with an accordian...the music sounded great...her voice got annoying...it wasn't that she sang bad...she just mostly didn't sing but made sounds...or same the same line over and over sometimes ten times in succession....

then came the next act...it was this person (the jury is still out if this person was male or female) who had a backup band consisted of recorded computerised music.. they played an electric guitar and every song was introduced with "This song doesn't have a title, but it is about me and my life. I'm sure you will like it" and then proceeded to sing the most whining moaning, bitching about everytihing songs I have ever hearrd....we were going to walk out but I wanted to see what the next act was....luckily we did wait...cause the next act was fabulous...and then the Myshkin Warblers were bloody awesome.

I wrote a song about the second act....it was to the tune of Pub With No Beer:

the song about me
(tune: the pub with no beer)

chorus:

Oh, it's awesome tonight on the stage all alone
Singing my poetry into this microphone
But there's nothin' so important so lovely you see
than to clap hands in awe to every song about me


1. Well, I stand on the stage, my guitar in my hands
Computer generated music, my backup band,
Oh, the audience is wild, this cold New Year's Eve
As they bask in the glory of the song about me.

2. I'm moaning and groaning and strumming along
Bestowing my gifts to this worshipping throng,
And the frowns on their faces quickly smile with glee
When they realise I'm singing another song about me

3. Now some people may complain the song has no name,
That my songs are no good, they all sound the same
But I'm the one who wrote them and I know you'll agree
It's a divine privilege to hear a song about me

4. Then in comes the drunkard, all covered with beer,
He pulls down a chair, and plops down his fat rear,
He burps out aloud, interrupting my key
He is showing no respect to the song about me

5. His glasses stand empty as he gets up to leave
My eyes open on shock it's so hard to believe
My soulful singing quickly turns into a plea
As I sing to an empty bar, The Song About Me.

nathan tompkins

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:31 PM

LOL, Nathan!! Good shew!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:38 PM

Mind you, young singers can get just as much stick for singing traditional songs about things they don't know much about.

I get uneasy about intergenerational hostility. Whichever way it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:54 PM

I'm with you, Kevin: In the 60's, it was alot of young kids singing traditional songs about topics they knew even less about than their own insecurities. It's not just songwriters, but anyone who is just starting out singing and performing. I remember when I was in my 20's, and I tried to sound like I was some old codger sitting out on the back porch playing his banjo. Now I are one.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:37 PM

I don't think it's a matter of snobbery so much as knowing the value of encouragement, plus having (or knowing) a kid whom you care enough about to want them to succeed.

How many of us would have accomplished anything if nobody had ever encouraged us to try something that we at first weren't particularly good at? Where would we be if no one had ever praised our first feeble efforts?

Since becoming a parent, I have learned to enjoy many things that I once never thought I'd enjoy.

For example, I've probably only watched about twenty basketball games in my life, and 18 of them were when my son was playing.

Maybe you have to be a parent yourself to understand this.

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

thanks Amos! it was a truly awful act!

Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

I get horribly bored with the "me" type stuff coming from someone who hasn't, well, experienced it. Lost puppy love is one thing, but being widowed or widowered is quite another.

But then -- if there's no encouragement there's no growth. If there's no growth, where's the next generation going to come from? Then the music I love WILL die.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:48 PM

Of course it can work the other way. Sometimes the last thing a young person wants is encouragement from parents.

Sometimes being told it's tuneless rubbish can be confirmation that it's worth doing; being told it sounds great means there must be something wrong with it.

Young folk musicians come in two flavours - those with parents who love folk music, and have encouraged them all the way; and those who are into it in face of parents who think it's total crap.

I get a feeling that a lot more of the second sort are starting to emerge. That is as well, because there are a lot more people in the last generation like that second bunch of parents (who think we're crap) than there are like the first (who are us.)

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:40 PM

I don't think this really happened to me.

I started singing in front of people with a great friend when we were 13 in 1963 as a folk duet. We both carried a tune well and actually harmonized pretty good. We both played Gibson small body guitars and I learned how to chord a 5-string Kay banjo. We were invited to play at different hootenanys and for other different affairs and parties some times being the youngest performers there.

We were The Kingston Trio minus one. We practiced and worked pretty hard. We had a lot of fun at it and were lucky to have had the opportunities. We took ourselves seriously but not enough to not enjoy music for the good time that it gave us and who we played for.
In no way were we ever smarmy about it. Years later, this same friend and I formed a fairly successful country-rock band that played in the clubs for quite a few years and still occasionally gets together for a reunion gig. Though he has "retired" I continue to play and perform, mostly in bluegrass scenarios sometimes for money, other times just for the fun of it.

I give kids credit today for trying. But part of growing up is taking your chances. If you are going to get up and perform in front of people with the exception of your family (you hope!) you have to be prepared that someone is going to yell out, "you suck!" To me, having that happen to you and how you handle it, is a big part of learning how to grow up.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM

Has anyone considered that an act can be good--or bad--regardless of age. One doesn't get better by having the bad stuff encouraged.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:03 PM

I've considered it very much. Age is irrelevant. You can be good or suck no matter how old you are.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:07 PM

That confidence thing isn't automatic with age or maturity. After doing lots of stage performances over a ten/eleven year period from 1965-1976, to audiences that ranged in size from one (me) to 30,000 at Newport, I thought I'd never get the jitters again. Was doing a concert at McGill U in Montreal after what was probably 2000 stage sets all over North America in all kinds of melieus, and about fifteen minutes before I had to go on I was lookin' for a place to puke. (It was my audience (some of you will understand what I mean by that)) and I really couldn't go wrong on the stage. Keriste, I puked my guts out. Some people who had always seen me as a good stage performer couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I think I heaved three times. I was two or three minutes late for the stage, went on and got two encores and a SO. This is not a 'pat my back' story. I have felt that type of 'nerves' very often. I guess it's nature's way of stopping me from becoming too complacent.

As to encouraging others, I made the mistake once of saying what I felt about another person's writing, and I wish with all my heart I could take those words back. I have only been able to do the next best thing: If I have nothing good to say, I bloody well FIND something good to say. If someone thinks enough of me to ask my opinion, I damn well owe them the kindest most considered things I can say.

Years back, I sang a few songs for a couple of people who wanted to hear them. One of the songs was excellent (Fool Like Me), well-written, good melody, neat guitar work. I had at that time recently finished it. You songwriters will understand what that's like: bust your ass for a week getting everything just right, and this guy says, "It brings me no pleasure." I could feel my soul collapse. I have never forgot that either. Today, for my own writing, I don't look for anyone's approval anymore. If I like it, that's good by me. However, younger people need our encouragement.

When I mark student poetry or essays, I find the positives--because it isn't much of a teacher who can't. In my first year of university--I'd been a high school dropout--I handed in a paper to the professor I liked most. I was anxious to see what he would say. The essay was about language and the structures of written English. I had worked for about 30 hours on that 2000 word essay. I received a mark in the 70s. Attached was a single-spaced typed critique that started, "Dear Mr Murdoch, I have read your essay and I find it to be scholarly, well-written and humourous. There were, however, a few errors of omission." The rest of the typed page tore the essay apart. I don't remember ANY of that. We all know that a pat on the back is only 6" higher than a kick in the ass, but give that pat first, and ya can say lots of stuff another person will learn from.

Sorry to go on so.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:12 PM

I was having this same conversation with a band mate the other nite. Only we talked about pop music and wondered wher the great voices were. I hear a lot of mediocre tenor types with small squeakie ranges and marginal to great guitar skills. Singing message songs that seem to mean something to someone. All these kids liking this stuff and I sit there looking for the wonder, waiting for the amazement.

Or maybe we have just become our parents.

Don

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:34 PM

Brucie

If it sucks, why not say it sucks. Simon Crowell might be an asshole, but at least he's an honest asshole.

Lip service is really another form of bullshit.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

Martin:

Because it is never absolutely true, and if you pretend you're just being honest, you're just being a sadist. A balance of encouragement and helpful criticism will help another person a lot more than blunt invalidation even if it seems justified because blunt invalidation loves no room for hope.

On the other hand, if what you are trying to do is not help but crush, then it is of course the method of choice. Depends on what effect you are trying to create, I guess.

A

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

Because, Martin, people are more important than my opinion of them.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:50 PM

This is probably another thread, but I think what's happening and has been for some time, is a confusion between the traditional roles of poetry and song. I've never claimed to write poetry. I write song lyrics. When someone starts claiming a song lyric is poetry I get uncomfortable. Poetry throughout the ages has been largely about self, song lyric about telling a story. A generalisation I know, but worth debating I think.Things began to get mixed up in the 60's and the problem has now reached epidemic proportions.As a general maxim I feel a poem is the way to look in, and a song is the way to look out....generally!

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:58 PM

Looking out for the things worth encouraging is a lot harder and a lot more useful than being a smart-arse.

Anybody who's spent any time around folk-music will know how people can learn and improve over time, often amazingly so. And being encouraged to keep going is an important part of that.

And the other things is, how many people can think of singers, whom they really admire now for qualities in the way they sing, and what they sing, which the first time they heard them, they thought were dreadful, because they sounded differently from what was expected?

I remember once a friend pulled out a record her husband had brought home from a trip to America. "You must hear this, it's absolutely terrible". The singer was (then) young Loudon Wainwright III, and it wasn't - but it took time to tune into it.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM

One doesn't get better by having the bad stuff encouraged.

Surely, judging by other threads, we are supposed to be "inclusive" and encourage bad performers to carry on performing crap.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:12 PM

People are important and if they suck you are doing them an injustice by not telling them so, especially if they REALLY suck.

Now if they are have potential, then let them know it and by all means encourage them. But if the music is playing in the key of A and they are singing in anything Bb or higher tell the truth , man. I'm not saying to say it meanly, but find a way to say it truthfully.
They need to find a different way to express themselves.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:16 PM

I see the same sorts of things on a weekly basis. I host a Friday night open mic. There's nothing in the world which can more effectively keep things in perspective than to watch a parade of young people repeat all of you mistakes.
Coversesly, there is no greater joy than seeing some young man or woman who has the spark;who has the magic and try to steer them away from the traps.

Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

"I'm not saying to say it meanly, but find a way to say it truthfully."

Well it certainly sounded like you were all in favour of saying it meanly: "If it sucks, why not say it sucks."

If someone's out of tune you point that out. That's helpful. Saying "You really are bloody useless" is not helpful, and it's very likely not true either.
...................

Some songs are stories, some aren't. It's always been that way. And you can't draw a line between song and poetry. A lot of great poems would make terrible songs, and a lot of great songs aren't great poems. But there are plenty which are both at the same time.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM

Martin,

I agree with you. However, there are gentle ways to accomplish most things, and I am not presuming you don't know or do that. I think you would. And I have gently directed a few people to their real vocations in management, backstage work, sound work, etc. However, writing is about trying. If I had been told that when I was sixteen, I would have quit most likely. I did my best songwriting from the time I was about 23 to now. I had thought I'd never write songs again, and at the tender age of 56 I just finished the best thing I've ever done. However, there wasn't ever a new song I tried out that I didn't think was the best thing I'd done. Retrospect most often gave me the view I needed to hear it and make the call myself.

I did have a teacher in high school who told me I was wasting my time writing songs and singing and playing guitar. Another teacher told me to go to NYC and find out. I was never famous, and I never will be, but I managed to get four record deals over the years, and I hope to have another one on the go within a year. So, I'm glad I listened to teacher two.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:12 PM

A lot of points to respond to here. Unless someone is so atrocious that there is absolutely nothing I can think of to say to them that would encourage them, I point out something I think that they can build on, with a suggestion of how they might approach it differently.
And of course, Martin, you are assuming that your evaluation is Truth personified. That's a real dangerous approach to take, because some of the best musicians and artists who are now considered great were considered crap by some people. It's safer not to confuse personal opinion with absolute fact.

I had someone send me a long tape of many songs that they had written.. someone who admired my songwriting. It took me awhile to listen to the songs (which were very weak) to find some lines or approaches that I felt were good. This was someone who was in my aduience and sent me the cassette. I never met the person, or heard from them again, so I have no idea whether my encouragement and suggestions had any positive effect. In a way, that's not even the point. If I had just said, "your songs suck" I don't think that I would have accomplished anything positive. The person seemed modest and sincere in their efforts.

to Guest: I don't think anyone (other than a sadist) would actually encourage bad writting. There's a surplus of the stuff already.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM

I never applaude anything that I don't like. To do so is hypocracy

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM

Sufferin' Jesus.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:48 PM

Jerry,yes my evaluation is truth personified as I see it. Your way though does have merit to some degree. There is always someone who likes total crap. There are plenty of so called artists who are totally worthless.

Did you ever consider saying something sucks to NOT accomplish anything positive, but just to be brutally honest? Does life by you always have to be blowing sunshine up someone's rear? Have you ever called a spade a spade? Lip Service and bullshit encourage more lip service and bullshit.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:59 PM

Y'know, Martin, I just realized that your chosen handle is a combination of the 2 most famous makes of acoustic guitar. Cosmic.... I can hardly believe I never noticed that before.

- LH

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:05 PM

Little Hawk, you are so right. My two main axes are a vintage D-18 and J45.

It is not only totally cosmic, but it also groovy, far out, and totally tits.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Mudlark
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:27 PM

Since I'm not a professional musician I'm not called upon to give an opinion in this realm, but I am, in a small way, a professional writer, and for many years in the real world was an tech. editor. Now my editing skills and criticism are sought out, and sometimes it is a very tricky business, when dealing with mediocrity, to not demolish possible buried talent. I do think it is important to call a spade a spade albeit as tactfully and kindly as possible. For one thing, if the writer (of anything) is sincere than only sincere honesty really counts as criticism. Otherwise, it's just your mum saying, "Oh darling, I love anything YOU do."

I work hard to give balanced criticism, to find good where there is any, but there are times when I'm reminded of Thurber's admonition that whereas a a tiny acorn may grow into a mighty oak, it is also true that a tiny mediocre acorn may grow into an oak of towering mediocrity. A whiny voice, poor instrumental accompaniment, and self-serving lyrics mean either the performer has an overblown sense of self-confidence, or is unaware of the low value of his/her offering. It seems to me if your criticism is to have real value it's important to help promote a healthy ego, while weeding out egotistm.

I got into folk music during the beatnik era, and along with many talented amateurs, there was a raft of black turtleneck sweatered "folk singers." who showed no musical promise and worse yet no emotional honesty. I didn't like them then and I don't like them now.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:41 PM

I don't have a problem being honestly critical. Yelling "you suck!" from the audience while someone is performing isn't my style. To each his own.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:34 AM

Have you ever been to a Science Fiction convention and gone to the filking.
Filking began as a fun group activity. The songs were simple. We all knew the words. If we didn't, there was always a filk song book.
But NOW! There is a collection of filk stars who are convinced that they're Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Simon and or Garfunkle. You do NOT join in the chorus. It can not, really, be said to be fun. I wouldn't be rude to these egotists. But I'd give a lot to sit in a room and sing along to "Real Old Time Religion" or "The World Con".
I might mention that one filker translated the infamous Greek Sailor Song into classical Greek, so he could sing it in mixed company. Nobody cared much to sing along, but we all enjoyed it.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 09:03 AM

You've made a really good point, LadyJean. Songwriters (and most singers who are doing traditional material) when they start out, don't do songs with choruses. I'm not sure why that's the case. For songwriters, I guess it's because they feel that they have something unique to say and aren't thinking that others might want to join in.
When I first started singing traditional music, most of my repertoire was learned from sources like the Anthology Of American Folk Music. Most of the recordings were by solo performers or duets, and many of the songs didn't have choruses.

When I think back to first performing at the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village in the early sixties, the audiences didn't sing along, even on good chorus songs. Folk music back then was definitely a spectator sport. That seems strange to me now, because you think of all the popular recordings of songs like Tom Dooley, Michael Row The Boat Ashore, Sloop John B... many of them had great choruses. Maybe it was different in other parts of the country and in England, but New York City coffee houses were places where you listened, for the most part. I have musician friends who are of the same vintage as me, who still don't encourage singing along on choruses.

One of the first songs I ever wrote and performed acknowledged that pull between introspective songs and choruses. I wrote very few introspective songs, but one was about the collapse of my first marriage. I played the introspection off with a good sing-along chorus:

"What do you when the good times are gone
Sit by the window and wait for the dawn
And you can't remember how things went so wrong anymore
What does it matter how hard you tried
Or how many times you kept it inside
There's no more to say, and nothing to hide anymore

CHORUS: Nobody wants to hear a sad song
         We've all got troubles of our own
         Of our own"

Jerry

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 10:11 AM

I think Jerry's original point is a good one. The fact is, there are plenty of people in this world who will tell you that you suck, either directly or by inference. As a father of three, I have learned that guidance doesn't work unless it is paired with encouragement. And, quite honestly, my personal preferences are not the last word on what is quality. Negativity is easy, as is snobbery, but neither really makes the world a better place.

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 10:54 AM

When I was young, we didn't have mics! If you wanted to be heard, you made sure you sang loud enough.

Back in the 60s, a few years before I made my first public appearance, I wrote a few songs. I never performed any of them -- they didn't appeal to me! I only do good stuff now ...

(It occurred to me that the only thing likely to happen if you walked down a lonesome railroad track in England was (a) you'd be run over by a train (less likely) or (b) you'd be told to bugger off buy a gang of Dr Beechings workmen taking up the tracks for scrap (more likely). Today, you're likey to get hit by a train if you stand on the platform, but unlikley to see any workmen ... there's a song in that, if anyone wants it!)

It didn't take me long to find that people let you know if they don't like your performance, however polite they are about it. No problem: I'm happy to sing songs we both like. I've never loaded sixteen tons (what d'you get? Filthy!), and I've never lost my maidenhead to a ploughboy (indeed, I've never heard one sing), but I don't think that precludes me singing about those things. On the other hand, I do have personal worries from time to time, like everyone else; but I don't feel inclined to share my private feelings with everyone else. Do what is comfortable, and take note of how comfortable your audience is. And don't mumble into your armpit!

Steve

Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:01 AM

MartinGibson: You're a mensch. We all know it. Be nice. Bruce M