Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.

Subject: Thoughts on LYR ADD/REQ song threads.
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:39 PM

Recently I have seen criticism from some of the very welcome 'fresh blood' on both the 'thought for the day' and the music (LYR ADD/REQ) threads. It would be sensible to listen and be prepared to adapt rather than be surprised that our 'youth' do not understand 'the way, things MUST be'

I am reminded of the story of 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.

The criticism of the LYR ADD/REQ threads was to the effect that these received few contributions and did not go anywhere. I don't know if I entirely agree but I think the perception that these are dry and scholarly threads does tend to prevent some from even looking in them.

This is a shame I think as some of the best discussions can and do arise from these threads about songs, when all feel they can be involved.

I know this designation LYR ADD/REQ was to enable The DT to find posted songs but it was not to prevent contributions and discussion about the song, in these threads.

How about having just the word SONG and then the TITLE with a question mark?

It would be clear that there was a song in thread but the thread would need to be opened to find out exactly what was required. This would hopefully have the effect of involving more posters and some healthy discussion and 'jolly banter' may ensure.

I know this may sound like heresy to some but if a little tolerance were to be shown on one side and a little restraint on the other, it could possibly a way of helping us to have ONE forum, without all these divisions that seem to beset us.

Recently I did start a thread with just the title of the song when I wanted the words but because this was not clear, posters seemed to look in out of curiosity and stayed to contribute and a good discussion of the song was had. 20 posts to date!

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 06:02 PM

I don't see anything wrong with your idea Shambles (except extra work for Max, which I think we should be careful about asking for) but I do wonder about the premise. I'm not sure that dry and scholarly is always a put off for everybody, I don't find it so, but I don't speak for everybody. Many times I look at a Lyric request and don't post because I can't help, but I find it interesting to see what people are asking and sometimes follow up on something that looks neat to me.

People wish to measure which are the most useful or popular threads on the forum and the only way, at the moment, it seems that can be done is by counting the responses to it. I had never heard of John Hardy but a thread a while ago on the Traveller's Coin got me interested and now I've got his site book-marked and am thinking about trying to purchase some of his work. I didn't post to that thread, though, so its usefulness to me can't be counted by measuring responses. This is one of those things that might just have to be taken more on faith than on measurement.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 06:30 PM

Hi, Roger - I don't think there's a need for us to start a new category of threads. I think it's up to us to start threads that we think will be interesting. In many cases, the "lyrics request/add" threads naturally don't generate much discussion. Somebody asks for lyrics, and somebody gives them, and sometimes that's all there is to say about the matter. If we have an interest in continuing the thread, it's up to us to ask questions and select thread titles that will generate discussion. I don't think that adding or changing the category names will accomplish that.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 06:44 PM

As a newbi (how long does that last) I am gratified not only to have gotten the first lyrics I requested but a new group of friends, things to think about, and a lot of general mudcat atmosphere (mmm!) by sifting through threads about songs, and I like it that the songs and thoughts spark each other off. I am really enjoying the variety in all apsects of Mudcat and maybe that will mature into a desire for efficiency of use later-- but I hope not!

Maybe it's because in my clubbing days I always as one of the ones who would stay until closing and help sweep up. The night's music was always wonderful but it is the friendship of the commuunity that has stayed with me. You can learn the songs you hear, and go a long way down the road of life feediung off the ability to redo them over and over, but we seem as humans always to need fresh contacts with other humans. Maybe other genres of music are less touchy-feely or less cerebral than ours, but should anything called FOLK/MUSIC leave out either the people-to-people side of the interaction or the songs that keep us connected?

I just keep wanting to tell you all, relax, don't make Mudcat into something you must worry over, it is good and strong and it's OK if it's messy. Isn't your house messy? Isn't your instrument case just a little messy? Isn't someone's cat's hair in it?

So the mudcat splashes when it comes up for sunshine and the water is a little... ripe sometimes. That's what happens when you stand on the bank watching the day go by!

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 06:55 PM

Praise, I agree, besides I was always told that "if a house is tidy there just isn't anything going on" (mind wise).

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: emily rain
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 08:43 PM

i agree with joe.

plus: it's possible to filter the threads to include only those with "LYR" in the title, thereby giving you a whole slough of lyrics (added and requested). i've used it a couple times, and if i were dick and susan, i'd do something similar when updating the digitrad. also if you're feeling altruistic, you could filter for "REQ" and see if there are any unfilled requests floating around out there. "song" wouldn't work as well for either purpose.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 09:28 PM

Dearest Praise--I too am a relative "newbie", and I think your post ought to at least put you in the ranks of the "Old" Newbies.......all my thoughts exactly. And I always get stuck sweeping up too! Yes, my house is messy and my car has animal hair---I am busy playing music and Mudcatting! Doesn't matter WHO originally said it, it still "Takes a Village!"

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 12:03 AM

I don't think I can quite be an old newbie but a survey of my home would certainly make one think of me as ripening. I have a new plan. I'm going to write nice things to crabby people just for fun and because I can. I can even use this plan to learn new songs-- perhaps if I use the DT as my source for nice things, I can soothe some savage something-or-other. I think on my worst days I would melt completely if someone sang me just about any song in the DT library instead of engaging with me in whatever snit I'm trying to start! Sometimes my husnband wanfders into the kitchen when I'm throwing pans and mnurttering vile things and drowns me out with some lovely violin melody he's been practicing that I don't know he's learned. A violin in a tiled kitchen makes a lot of noise!

What do you think?

We attack at dawn.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 02:18 AM

The criticism I referred to is in this thread. Registration

The SONG designation would replace the LYR ones, so there would be only one broad category. It would not cause Max any more work.

It would not be the BEST answer for the DT but does the forum NOW exist only serve the DT or does the DT NOW serve the forum?

If as a result ALL the threads were more interesting and received more contributions, would that not be a good thing?

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 04:09 AM

Oh go away, Shambles

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 06:53 AM

Another recent example is this thread LYR ADD Thing Again Dick Gaughan.

The words to the song were posted. A discussion on the political background to the song took place. Some questions were posed. The author of the song popped it and answered them. Including the correct way to say his name (though he did say he could be completely wrong on that one).

I wonder how many people missed that thread (and others) because they do not generally look in the LYR ADD/REQ titled threads? Their loss I agree but I would suggest that this thread might have been an exception rather than the rule? Maybe we could all try and make them all like that?

It is mainly a question of encouraging folk to first open the thread, once it has over about 30 contributions, its attraction to some, at least initially, is to see what everybody else is finding so interesting.

It is all a question of packaging. If you want to get people to look in the thread, putting SEX in the title works but not as well as a title like Please Ignore. A thread called the Blind Willie McTell Sewing Circle also works well.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 09:00 PM

I don't think for me it makes much difference what label you put on a thread. I tend to a pattern of Mudcatting, in which I open up threads which mention a song I'm fond of, or interested in (not necessarily the same thing), while they are young. And if any thread hangs around long enough to accumulate a good number of posts, that's a sign it might be worth investigating.

I get a bit fed up with the threads which just ask for a song that's in the DT. I think if you are asking for the words of a song, you ought to be trying to find out a bit more about it as well. But more significantly, these one off instant response threads can push potentially more interesting threads off the page before you get to see them.

And I think the "dry and scholarly" threads are often the best thing about the mudcat and I'd like to see more of that. (See Roger, I said I'd find something to disagree with you about before long.)

But I don't think there is any simple technical fix for all these difficulties - I think if more of us use the Mudcat in ways that encourage what we value in it, that is the best approach. (As opposed to trying to interfere with what other people may value in it.)And one of the most helpful ways is to use blue clicky things the way Shambles has been in this thread, to direct people's attemtion to relevant stuff in other threads and other sites.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: alison
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 01:16 AM

I don't see a problem...

If someone asks for lyrics or adds lyrics using LYR ADD or LYR REQ..... and gets an answer .. so what if the thread only has the 2 posts... it has served its purpose... the person got the lyrics they were after.. everbody is happy...... although I'd like to see a third posting to say "Thanks".....

this forum was set up to provide the answers to questions... and whether it is answered in a thread with 2 posts or 200.... the objective has been met.

it is great to find out background about songs.. but I think that is met too with the "can anyone explain?" and "what does .... mean?" threads.....

the "chatters" don't go into the LYR ADD thread.. because there is nothing to add.... fine by me...

if people are interested.. they will look.... but a change of title isn't necessary.......

if it ain't broke........

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 09:40 AM

Flexible things work best but get messy. Maybe the answer is to think more creatively about how to use the site the way it is. Not a criticism... I'm just noticing after about a week on it that I move around in it very differently today than I did at first. Maybe this can continue endlesly-- the process of using tools better and this thread too I guess, but I am wondering more about how you all actually reap the benefits of visiting this Cafe in your 3-D lives. I'd love to hear, for example, Shambles, how the material you've gained (whether song or thought) have found their way into your life and out into the world through you. I'd love to hear that from any of you any time, in a thread or on the page.

For me, a key question about whether something is useful/worthless or helpful/harm,ful or even right/wrong is, "What is the fruit of it?"

So far the fruit of Mudcat for me is good, except I was on way too much yesterday, way way too much, and my swollen ankles told me to log the hell off and do some wash. I didn't do any wash, but I did spend the odd moments all the rest of the day wondering how you had all gotten under my skin so fast, and that was good to think about.

Maybe I will change my Cafe nametag to read "Intentionality."

See you over coffee later.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 09:42 AM

Flexible things work best but get messy.

Maybe one answer would be to think more creatively about how to use the site the way it is. Not a criticism... I'm just noticing after about a week on it that I move around in it very differently today than I did at first. Maybe this can continue endlesly-- the process of using tools better and this thread too I guess, but I am wondering more about how you all actually reap the benefits of visiting this Cafe in your 3-D lives. I'd love to hear, for example, Shambles, how the material you've gained (whether song or thought) has found its way into your life and out into the world through you. I'd love to hear that from any of you any time, in a thread or on the Page.

For me, a key question about confirming whether something is useful/worthless or helpful/harmful or even right/wrong is, "What is the fruit of it?"

So far the fruit of Mudcat for me is good, except I was on way too much yesterday, way way too much, and my swollen ankles told me to log the hell off and do some wash. I didn't do any wash, BTW, but I did spend the odd moments all the rest of the day feeling knee-jerky and wanting to log back on and wondering how you had all gotten under my skin so fast, and that was good to think about.

Maybe I will change my Cafe nametag to read "Intentionality."

See you over coffee later.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From:
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:52 AM

I don't do a lot of posting, but I do prefer the ones which are at least topical.

One suggestion might be to have TWO separate forums: One for topical stuff, the other for the (well, let's be nice) Off-topic type of messages. That way everyone could be happy.

Would this be too tough to maintain?

One thing this might alleviate is the problem with the searches. Currently we can't search the body of the message because we have too many messages. IF there was a way to hold two separate message bases, breaking off into the two I've suggested, it might be possible to archive just the one for On-Topic messages, and allow searches throughout that, and NOT to archive the ones in the alternate message base for off-topic stuff. We probably don't need to keep those forever and a day.

Subject: RE: Thoughts on LYC ADD/REQ song threads.
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 11:08 AM

Actually George you CAN search the messages in the NEW forum Super Search. Give it a try. Its been up about a month and seems to work pretty well.

Spaw